Doc

Talk about stating the obvious..... lol.

But it was just the other day when you were claiming that you pass the kinds of deer that Stubby had pictured. I guess that wasn't exactly true was it? Sorry if I embarrassed you.

What a tangled deal that would wind up being. Farm outlet stores would be legal to sell corn, minerals, and salt blocks, etc., but outdoor stores could not. Can you imagine the legal challenges and entanglements that sort of regulating would cause? I'm not sure of the gun control analogy, but it sure would be a messy law.

What a great idea! A listing of shooting sports clubs with contact, location and other details. Now if we can just get people to offer up that info here, we maybe will be able to construct a useful listing for members that are looking for some place to shoot, compete, or just hang out.

So once the flutes of that head get clogged with hide, hair and meat, you essentially have a "blunt" ......right? Legal? ..... I suppose so. It's hard to really tell from the picture, but it looks like the back of the blade is 90 degrees to the axis of the shaft. That makes it technically meet the minimum legal requirements.

Ha-ha..... Are those the huge trophies that we have been hearing so much bragging about?

Time will tell. I have heard all the theorizing and arguments for or against. Now, if the stats are kept and analyzed, we will start getting a real picture of whether the fears were justified or just overactive imaginations. One thing is for sure.... any reversals in our current safety success is sure to be blamed on rifles. I have some mis-givings in certain areas and situations, but there is no way to be certain one way of the other without just "doing it".

I believe the sale of these materials is legal because of the fact that people can buy them for out-of-state hunts. Of course we all know what is really going on, but that is the justification that is used for the legal selling of materials (and equipment) that is illegal for NYS use. Apparently there is not enough opposition to support getting the law amended to include sales.

My hunting is done on top of a cardiac inducing hill that is about 1/2 mile of very steep terrain. I then go about another 1/2 mile beyond that. If I go any farther, I'll be popping out the other side....lol. It's hard to believe, but they have hacked trails all over the side of that hill and once on top have created a maze of trails that cover the entire property and are so close that one trail is never out of earshot of the next. What that has done is to keep the deer pretty much nocturnal. Basically they have turned the entire parcel into a bicycle facility. What used to be some prime deer hunting, has become over-run with hikers and bikers. Oh yes, and with the availability of all these gouged out trails, the occasional dirt bike enthusiast illegally takes advantage of all the development. So yes, it seems to me that hunters and the wild areas of NYS do need some protection from the arbitrary and uncontrolled exploitation of state land.

They do occasionally come to varmint calls. Those that are serious about getting coons do use dogs or traps. As a kid, I use to make pretty good spending money with a long trapline, and coon sets were some of my best money-makers.

I used to get so discouraged having the critters harvest stuff out of my garden one or two days before I intended to. Corn was an absolute loser. The coons polished that off long before it was ready to pick. Beans, swiss chard, in fact any leaf crop would be chonked down completely all in one night. Rabbits would squeeze through the welded wire fence, deer would jump over it, and woodchucks would dig under it. Everybody got to enjoy my garden except the wife and me. That's when I ornery and mean and strung the wire.....one strand about 3" off the ground, and another strand all around the top, 6" above the welded wire fencing. Absolutely no problem ever since. Now it's just me and the bugs that get the harvest.

So has anyone ever explained why all of a sudden the bear population is growing and spreading across the state? Does it have something to do with the maturing of NYS habitat?

Why is it that the DEC's version of the process of deer estimation is such a mystery? Nobody seems to be able to describe it in detail. It always comes out sounding like, "Trust me". It would be nice if they offered up some credibility by educating the public a bit. Is there someplace on their website where it is detailed? Over the years, I have managed to pull bits and pieces out of conversations and generalized comments at deer management meetings and a few books and magazines. But really, I have not seen any concentrated discussion offered to the public of the DEC process. I was hoping that this thread would result in somebody who knows these things providing some clarification. But so far, it all still remains a mystery.

You are right ..... definitely no patting is usually needed. You can call yourself whatever you want, and say whatever it takes to create a positive view of yourself. The old "legend in your own mind" syndrome has never been demonstrated better. But like I said, whatever you need to do to create a passable self image .... you go ahead and do it. We all understand. We've all seen personalities like yours before .... lol. By the way, perhaps you could clear up something for me. You claim that the DEC is ruining hunting here in NYS. You also claim to have nearly 1000 acres of private land at your disposal. And yet you spend your time hunting state land managed by the DEC and claim to get trophy deer there. Interesting double-speak there. Apparently they know a whole lot more about deer herd management than you do with your 1000 acres after all.

Lol ..... careful you don't throw a shoulder out of joint with all that patting yourself on the back. Wouldn't that be a treat to hunt with somebody that never tires of telling you how great he is. I'm sure that gets real tired real quick.....Ha-ha. Oh and then gets his jollies by telling you that your deer harvest is substandard. That's just the personality (or lack thereof) that we need in hunting.

I don't know whether I just can't see it or what, but how are you people getting away without electric fencing? If I didn't have my welded wire fencing and the top and bottom strands of electric fence, I just simply would not have a garden left. Between the deer, rabbits, and woodchucks, that thing would be a bare stretch of dirt overnight without it.

I can only relate personal experiences. That's not stereotyping.

Yeah, that's true. In fact you have the whole of the Northern Zone has decades of rifle safety data. But the inroads of rifle into the more populated Southern Zone counties is a fairly recent event with only a few exceptions with several just entering this year. But don't get me wrong, I am hoping that the safety record remains as good or better. I'm just saying that it may be a bit premature to be declaring success. Just because everything has been going well, doesn't mean that it will continue. Also, there is a built-in delay due to everyone getting switched over from shotguns to rifles. I don't know how widespread that is, but I do know people who recently bought brand new shotguns and either don't have the cash or the will to run out and buy a new rifle, so they are still using their shotguns ..... for now. Another thing that I find curious is our recent success with safety numbers. I haven't heard anyone officially making any guesses as to why that is happening. And of course there is always the possibility that it is simply a run of good luck that could reverse at any time regardless of what kinds of weapons are being used. So I guess I am always a bit conservative on doling out the congrats. I'm a bit of a hard-sell, and I'm afraid its going to take some undetermined length of time before I feel confident enough to declare complete success. I can still see factors that may be skewing things a bit.

I have never seen a guy that is so gleeful over the hardships that he is predicting will come for hunters. But I hate to spoil all your fun, but this world of hunting doom and gloom will not likely come in your lifetime. Yeah there are people leasing land already (has been for decades), but the majority of hunters are still not resorting to pay-to-hunt arrangements and most likely never will. Oh sure there will come a day when hunting will be like Europe and such places, but you and I will be long dead and gone when that time comes. So all your glee and giggling at the demise of hunting as it was previously enjoyed by real sportsmen is all a bit premature. I'm afraid that you are going to have to look elsewhere to get your jollies at the expense of others.....lol.

I absolutely agree. Why would a pack of a dozen mountain bikers or hikers hooting and hollering on their way through the inescapable maze of paint smeared bike trails worry about some hunters sitting quietly in the woods hoping that some blind and deaf deer comes stumbling through all that ruckus. Sure they're willing to share or "invade". Hell, lets fill the woods with ATVs and snowmobiles and give those guys a crack at state land too. What the heck, we can hack a few of those pesky trees out of these areas and open up some nice public ski lifts (nothing fancy, just rope lifts) and give those folks equal access to state lands.....lol.

Ha-ha.... Don't be so eager to throw the sport under the bus. It's obvious that you only see how hunting can make you a dollar, but there are still a lot of us who are in it to enjoy it for something other than a way to fill our pockets. If hunting evolves into the activity that you are hoping for, I suppose I will find something else to fill my days. After all when hunting loses it's identity, then it will not be the same activity that has been a huge part of my entire life. So at that point what really will have been lost?

I overheard a DEC biologist say exactly that just before the beginning of one of the "state of the herd" public meetings several years back. He was talking offline to a gun hunter (I assume) and didn't realize I was right behind him. The discussion they were having was about incorporating a muzzleloader season in the bow season. I wonder how widespread that attitude is across the department.

Here's what runs through people's minds. Everyone is aware that there is a certain percentage of hunters that are absolute idiots and unsafe with any weapon simply because of their carelessness and lack of concern for rules of safety. So along comes a law change that puts a weapon of longer distance in the hands of those idiots so now they can be stupid from a farther distance. Of course they are concerned. Is the concern rational? That remains to be seen. We just have to be sure that we don't wind up proving them right.

Where I want to be is the point where I see my hunting as "recreation". I don't want it to be some kind of source of stress, or some form of do-or-die competition. I don't want it to be something that I "work" at like an occupation. I want it to be a hook back to our heritage and culture and to maintain some form of identity with the past and where we come from. I want it to be a source of relaxation and connection with nature. I don't run away from technology, but I don't want the whole activity to become all about technology. I want my results (success or failure) to be as much about my own personal actions and efforts as I can arrange it within the limits of practicality. I'm not looking to be some hunter hero or TV star or noted expert. I'll leave that to those that want hunting to become their career. More power to them, but that's not where I want to be.

I'm a huge proponent of rifles being allowed for deer hunting, but I certainly do appreciate the uneasy feelings that some people might have. Can we point to the recent additions of counties and say that because they have not experienced any additional problems that the uneasy feelings are baseless? Not really. Most of those new rifle counties are only into their 1st, 2nd, or 3rd year. That really is not much of a base to draw any conclusions on. Also, I suspect that there is still a large percentage of hunters that have not yet switched over to rifle yet, either because of financial reasons or simply because they are still believers in that nice new shotgun that they bought not that many years ago. My attitude is that time will tell if the change was a smart one or not. The debate is not finished yet. In the mean time, I will continue to enjoy hunting with my brand new .270, enjoying every minute of not having my shoulder mangled by my old 12 gauge. And I will be extremely upset if hunters start screwing up this opportunity. But I will not criticize H4W for speaking a bit skeptically. I am skeptical too, and I am hoping that the next decade or so will make me feel completely at ease. One thing I am sure of is that if there is even a slight reversal in the safety records of recent years, the first thing that will be blamed is the change to rifles. So it is a pretty good idea to keep that in mind before pulling that trigger.