Doc

That's fascinating stuff.

Lol ..... It looks like a barnyard. How the heck many do they have there?

It's all about attitude .... lol.

It's not the first time I've heard such stories. Maybe not all of them quite so much "in-your-face", but that same underlying theme. A lot of people think we bowhunters are really getting away with something and that it should be stopped. I have heard and read all the nonsense about how bowhunters are just "buck hunters" and how we thin out all the best bucks before they ever get a chance at them. Silly stuff, but there are more people out there that actually believe all that than you might imagine.

I thought the big thing at Onieda Lake was the walleyes. Aren't they the featured species there anymore?

When any government agency has law abiding citizens under random surveilance, it certainly does magnify the control capabilities to a point where you have to wonder just what kinds of mischief they could use such spying activities for. This sort of thing just grows and grows to the point where the sanctity of privacy totally dissolves. Technology has a way of putting us under lock and key without even using bars. We used to think that the right to bear arms related to an ultimate control of the citizens over a run-away government. Well given the technology of the day, that argument is really merely a bunch of wishful thinking. But don't tell the anti-gun folks ..... lol.

Now that is some spooky stuff! The bees create a new queen by giving her some magic potion? See, only Mother Nature could come up with stuff like that. So if a guy were to come across a swarm, just how do you go about taking possession of them? I'd be at a total loss as to how to go about it.

Those are honey bees .... right? I wonder if that is a domestic swarm or wild. I've got to say that spotting a wild honey bee around our area is becoming almost a rare event. What I hear is that some kind of mite is wiping out a bunch of them with no end in sight. It's a serious problem from the standpoint of all kinds of pollination. I see those pictures as a welcome sight.

Yes, your claim of "Thousands of sane hunters share the view that the NYB have elitism at their very core" ...... I am simply asking for your source for that ridiculous statement.

Lol .... lets not fight the crossbow battle all over again. Yes that was probably the most devisive issue to come along in my lifetime. And guess what ..... NYB didn't start it. The aggression did not come from NYB. NYB held a completely defensive posture throughout and still does.

What I am saying is that that one experience was so far over the top in terms of soliciting agreement that it is hard to believe that such a response was being anything that would represent a leadership that could be described as elite. This was an action by the head guy of NYB, and I take his actions as representing the leadership of the organization. So it's hard to believe that he singled me out for special treatment. But then, my disagreement was handled in a courteous, polite and respectful manner. Perhaps if I were a more aggressive sort, the debate could have spiraled down into a feud, and maybe I would be the one using the "elite" term and then I could claim mainstream status..... lol. By the way, I have also had dealings with our local regional NYB representative who also is a pretty good guy and extremely interested in discussion of bowhunter matters. My feeling is that this term "elitism" has been thrown around so much that anytime an organization has policy that is contrary to any individual, that "elite" jargon is the first thing that comes out of their mouth. Most of the time it is a term that is never actually experienced and is mouthed by people who have never even been members of NYB. Those that have had an experience that resulted in a feud (and I will point out that only one so far has actually claimed to have had such an experience) hardly makes a trend. And as I said before, we are only hearing one side of that single account. So, other than this one, where are all the horror stories of exclusion? Doesn't it sound more like one case of sour-grapes? As far as the elitist comment, I have heard that primarily from those that don't even bowhunt. Read the comments in the NYS Outdoor News, and you will almost always hear that term used along with the words "those bowhunters". These are obviously not bowhunters. We also have the crossbow advocates who threw that term around freely simply because it sounded good when used against discenting opinion. So don't be sucked into the notion that any large amount of people ever really experienced anything close to elitism personally. Question some of these people a little more closely, and you will first of all find out that they may not even be current bowhunters, secondly that they have never had actual membership in the organization and are simply repeating something that they heard or read somewhere, or thirdly that they have had some sort of policy disagreement and are simply upset because the whole organization didn't stop in their tracks and reverse their position just to please them. There is no way that I will fall in line behind this anti-NYB hysteria until I have witnessed at least a hint of it myself. Except for one person, all I have heard is, So-and so said ...., or I heard that .... or jeez everybody knows that ..... and most of that is from people that wish there never was such a thing as bow season or for whatever reason would just as soon bowhunters give up any form of organization. Frankly, I'll trust my own personal experiences with the organization.

Yeah, I would guess most of us have limitations on how much time we can devote to our pastimes. It's called keeping balance and perspective in our lives. Nothing wrong with that.

So, please explain the personal experiences that you have had that has lead you to this "elitism" claim. And by the way, I would love to see documentation on your claim about "Thousands of sane hunters". That's an easy thing to say, but saying it doesn't necessarily make it so, does it?

That is your twisted view based on some unfortunate situation that you ran into when you were a member. However, I have already described (if you even bothered to read it) treatment from the president of the organization that showed an extreme interest in the opinion of this rank and file member. That was a personal, time consuming and extreme reaction that I have never experienced from the administration of any organization that I have ever belonged to. So that paints a very different picture than what you are trying to sell. If that is "elitism", I think all such organizations could use a dose of that. I have no idea what kind of unhappy experiences you have had, or even if those experiences might have been brought on by your own attitudes and actions, but I'm here to tell you that what you are describing in no way represents any of the kind of people that I have come in contact with.

Much to everyone's relief, I will not be responsing to every mindless unsubstantiated outburst against the NYB. I know that they made a few enemies with their stance on on crossbows, to the point where people have lost their minds over it .... lol. It's too bad that the crossbow issue is more important than bowhunting issues to some, but with some people that is just the way it is. So if you can't help yourself and feel the need to try to destroy the only bowhunter advocacy organization in the state, knock your socks off (I'm sure the PETA folks appreciate your efforts. they hate organized bowhunters even more than you do). I have adequately replied to these attacks already and won't be repeating myself.

No ..... The guy is joking .... right? Hey, maybe not.

Look, if people want to find fault with the NRA, there are plenty right here on this forum that already have done so. And I'm sure you don't have to stretch your memory too much to recall the anti-NRA rhetoric that has been aired here. Everyone who doesn't want to support advocacy organizations seems not to have any real problems with concocting excuses. We've heard them all. NYB was formed to act as an advocacy group for bowhunters. They have there hands full with that. They were not formed to be advocates for crossbows, muzzleloaders, shotguns, rifles, spears, tomahawks or pistols. They are doing what they were formed to do which is 100% focused on bows and arrows and the protection of bowhunting as a viable hunting method. If anyone has been paying any attention at all in recent years, it is obvious that there are a lot of people who now have their eyes on the bow season and are feverishly doing their best to shoe-horn themselves into those weeks and parcel it up for their own use. Is there anyone who is going to seriously deny that? And yes, the bowhunters have found themselves in a defensive posture trying to fend off aggression from others. And yes, that is exactly what the NYB was formed for, and they are doing their job. For those that have problems with bowhunting as a special season or even a hunting activity, with archery oriented special regulations, I can see where they might want to believe that the NYB positions are unreasonably intransigent. They would rather the NYB simply roll over for any special interest group that comes along and demands their piece of the bow season as they take turns parceling it up. I applaud and respect the NYB for not doing that. They are doing the job that they were formed to do.

I guess the one thing that can be said is that I can always move to higher ground. I'm not sure about what can be done to avoid earthquakes, tornados and hurricanes. Ever get a look at the kinds of floods they have around the Missisippi? ..... Now there is a FLOOD! No place to run - no place to hide.

I have heard all of the excuses that people have for not belonging to advocacy organizations. There are all kinds of concocted reasons. It's not just NYB, but I have heard the same crap about the NRA. But I will say that it is one thing to simply not be a "joiner", and quite another to come onto a forum making unsubstantiated allegations with the obvious intent to talk potential members away from joining. There is something kind of insidious about a bowhunter actively trying to keep bowhunters in a totally disorganized and legislatively ineffective state. I understand anti-hunting and animal rights people trying to destroy any attempt at organizing bowhunters, but it is not a behavior I expect from our own ranks. Personally I strongly believe that we need to be organized to react to challenges to our sport. Apparently you do not. That I can live with ...... no harm - no foul .... just incorrect reasoning. However, when someone comes on here spewing false allegations and trying to disrupt those that do believe that bowhunters should be organized, you can always expect a reaction from me.

I know people are getting pretty tired of all this back and forth crap, but then I am not the one who started the malicious, incorrect and, let's call it what it is, basic lying about the way NYB functions. Don't expect me to sit by and let such BS stand without comment. First of all, I will tell you that I had a bit of a disagreement with NYB policy a few years back relating to the actual bowhunting days lost with the saturday opener activities, and I sent in a letter addressed to the president. Now as NYB has been characterized here, one would expect that that would have been the end of it. Well the fact is that the president of NYB sent back his reply, and we went back and forth about 3 times with e-mail correspondance. Finally he called me on the phone (emphasis on the "he called me") and we talked for over an hour and finally came to an agreement. Now inspite of all the anti-NYB, B.S. to the contrary that is being spewed here, I do not see that as representing a closed organization of elite leadership that does not care about opinions of members. And believe me, I am not anyone special, but just a rank and file member. So I don't know where you and other misinformed people are coming from with these crazy comments, but I will tell you that if you want to take the time to challenge things from within, it can be done. Of course, you do have to have enough interest to speak up rather than just sitting at home mumbling to yourself. Now, if you have a problem with legislative alerts, I think you had better familiarize yourself with what advocacy organizations do. That is one of their functions in case you weren't aware. It's a tactic that the NRA uses in exactly the same way, but then you probably don't belong to that organization either. But anyway, you can do with these alerts what you want. That's up to you. Nobody's cramming anything down anyone's throat. They are simply providing the information. Don't fault the organization for doing what they are chartered to do. If you want to be ignorant about pending legislation that relates to bowhunting and who and where to send opinions on that info, that is your right. Throw it out. Nobody is going to show up on your door-step. But for those of us who care about such things, it is somewhat dishonest to characterize that as cramming something down your throat. I call it doing their job. So anyway, if it sounds like I take offense to the malicious and false comments about the NYB being thrown around on this forum, your darned right it pisses me off. I have a lot of respect for the only people that take time out of their busy lives to represent our interests. They're doing a job that no one else has the gumption to do. I don't see anyone else volunteering and yet there are plenty of armchair experts that have plenty to say about how the organization is run when in reality, they truly don't have a clue. So you bet I have a rather short fuse when it comes to those who's only purpose is to simply ensure that bowhunting stays in a disorganized and chaotic state. These are people who would rather see bowhunting decisions left up to those who have no interest in whether bowhunting exists or not. If that is fine with you, so be it. It's a shame that you don't take more interest in an activity that you claim to be so involved with, but neither the NYB or anyone else can change human nature.

Lol ..... I used to cut access trails into my stands so I could quietly enter from the backside without walking on the deer trails. That was until I realized that if you cut a trail, the critters will start using it. I wasn't fooling anybody.

I do not have time to correct all the mis-information you have put out in this reply. Apparently you are getting your info from a single NYB member who shows up at camp. I take it you have never belonged to NYB or even investigated what the organization is about, and really have absolutely no idea or really care about what they do, how they function, what they have done for bowhunting, or really anything at all about them. I really don't know how to answer someone who is that removed from the world of organized bowhunting and still making comments on the subject. I guess the best answer is none at all. I really don't want to give you a migraine by making you actually think "too deep" into the subject. I can only say that your entire reply illustrates why bowhunters are so completely disorganized and so completely out of touch with matters involving the defense, promotion, and advancement of bowhunting in NYS. It's because that's the way they want it.

Damn! that's disgusting. Good grief .... and apparently the media reporter was all too happy to link hunting with the incident. Judging from the x-ray and the description of the organs that it hit, that pretty much would have been a fatality if there had been a broadhead attached. What the heck is wrong with people?

Well, it's not the kind of thing I would throw up and then try to use it the next day ..... lol. But let them age for a year, and the deer simply see them as a harmless blow-down. I may add a little brush during the September time frame just to seal up any holes. I could hold a barn-dance behind those things and the deer never see a thing. It's a great way to minimize exposure for drawing the bow.

And I assume the "large numbers of bowhunters begging for it over and over" is a direct quote without any editorializing ..... lol. By the way if there is any way possible, I would like a link to that quote. It's not that I am doubting your word, but I know how some of this stuff can get accidentally misquoted sometimes. In terms of "elitist crap", I assume you are talking about the crossbow issue. I don't want to get back into that crazy argument other than to say that it is pretty short-sighted to throw a whole bowhunter organization under the bus simply because of a disagreement on such a foolish issue. It does make a convenient issue to try to justify not joining though and there are quite a few people who are using oit exactly that way. By the way, I haven't heard of a whole lot of people who actually tried to join NYB to fight that issue from the inside. That's not quite as easy as sitting on the outside simply sniping at the whole organization over one issue. As far as the 1% speaking for all, that really is not such a strange condition, especially when you are dealing with a bunch of freeloaders who will take whatever the NYB does for them without bothering to join. Good deal for them .... eh? Also, your spokespeople are not always of your choosing, especially if you choose not to get involved. Those who have the backbone, ambition and dedication to take up the reins of leadership do generally wind up to be the authority that gets the attention of the powers that be. It's the old perception vs. reality argument. And it certainly is not their fault if the rest of the bowhunters fail to have any sense of dedication and organization. As to your last point, is that some kind of volunteering that I am hearing? That would be a refreshing change to finally hear someone who isn't just content to sit back, bitching all the time, but who actually would put their actions where their mouth is. Certainly it should be easy to wrest control from a mere 1% of the bowhunters. However, don't be surprised if within weeks or months, you become the target of the whining, bitching and moaning, and you wind up with 1% or less of the bowhunters for members. Advocacy groups become excellent targets for petty nit-picking especially when it comes to hunters. And it also seems to be human nature to take whatever freebies that are offered without actually joining. That doesn't seem to bother people one bit.