Doc

I guess I was thinking of long-term injury that perhaps you aren't even aware of as it is happening. Is there a cumulative effect to over-stressing bone, ligament, muscle, and cartiledge that can mask itself for years only to create a big problem in later years? I don't really know ..... just asking. In terms of how much poundage is enough, I can say that I and many others have successfully taken deer with recurves as low as 45#. And along with erussell, I have heard of others that have successfully used a 35# recurve to take deer. However, in my recurve days, I never shot at a deer over 20 yards away. Today there seems to be an emphasis on turning the bow into a semi-longrange weapon, and the poundage requirements are probably higher for that. Also, there is a mistaken notion that arrow speed can somehow beat a deer's reaction time, so for those that believe that, I can see why they would demand more poundage. But the truth is that given reasonable and realistic bowhunting shooting distances, I believe that people would be surprised at the low poundages that can be successfully used. But the real question of the thread is about long-term effects of heavy poundage bows, and will that normally cut short your bowhunting longevity.

As I understand it, their "official position" is that they want them gone. There is no closed season. There is no bag limit. There is no restrictions on hunting methods or weapons. All that is required to harvest them is a NYS hunting license. There was an interesting quote in a recent issue of New York State Outdoor News that indicated that they did not necessarily want you actively hunting them for fear of dispersing them and driving these feral hogs into new territory and hastening their introduction. The quote was from some official in the DEC, but I can't think of the name or position. I thought the comment was a bit strange. It's kind of one of these "having your cake and eating it too" kind of remarks ..... lol. But anyway, hunting them is not controlled, regulated or illegal. I thought there was something in the syllabus about hogs in NYS, but I could be wrong.

Well, the discussion has already taken more time than it's worth. It's not a question of anybody being out of line, but just an observation that declaring skepticism of somebody's account of something may not be the most friendly way to encourage that member to ever post again.

I often wonder how long-term excessive draw weight might impact such things as bursitis, arthritis, back spasms and other back problems, and premature muscle and joint difficulties. I remember back in the late 80's when I was preparing for a moose hunt, I regularly shot a Proline that was set at 80 pounds. That included NFAA tournament shoots a couple times per week, and endless hours of practice. It wasn't long after that that I developed some strange shoulder problems that I blamed on the excessive abuse from that bow. When the moose hunt was over, I bought a new bow that was set at 60 pounds, and never had another problem. Do you all think that guys shooting excessive draw weights may be setting themselves up for medical problems that might prematurely shut them out of bowhunting? I realize that it probably depends on the physical build of each individual. But I also see a whole lot of guys that are simply over-bowed. I know it affects their accuracy, but it also has me wondering how it may impact their longevity in the sport.

Good idea. I think they are all very interested in tracking the signs of feral hogs spreading in the state. I think they will appreciate the report.

Do non-hunters really differentiate between these idiots and the rest of us when they continually get bombarded with so many of these ridiculous incidents? We really get some pretty wide-spread bad press with these ugly displays of stupidity, and I think that a lot of non-hunters paint us with the same brush. Not fair, but I'll bet it happens. That's why every time I read another one of these kinds of stories, I almost take it personally because I know that, rightly or wrongly, such things have to effect how the non-hunting public views hunting and hunters.

No, I'm just saying that every so often there seems to be a feeding frenzy mentality that develops where for no particular reason that I can determine, a rather innocent post receives a strange out-of-scale negative or hostile reaction. We can certainly ask for more details and perhaps even offer alternative opinions of what may be going on there without declaring skepticism about the whole story, or declaring the story to be a little thin, etc. I don't know, I just think that it is not a great way to promote participation. It's not a big deal, but it just struck me a bit odd the way the whole reaction to the post went.

Just the other day, I fished around in my camera bag and grabbed one of the memory card plastic cases and headed out the door to check my camera. I never realized until I was at the camera getting ready to swap cards that the case was empty ...... wasted trip.

Actually, if you go back and read some of the replies there were a couple that basically were calling the post a lie. To quote one of them: "I'm skeptical of your story". Another: "Story is a little thin............". Frankly, I didn't see anything much to be skeptical of. Yes there may be more than one interpretation of what he found, but his interpretation is certainly one of the possibilities. It's not like poaching never happens. It's quite likely that replies like those are the reason he backed out of the thread and maybe out of forum participation.

Ha-ha .... isn't it funny how we use the term "illegals" and then want to treat them like first class U.S. citizens. Either they are in the country illegally or they're not. If they are, deport them. Don't worry about them sponging off our medical system. They can't do that if they aren't here. And if they are here creating an illegal situation, take care of that situation and the problem goes away. I've often wondered what naturalized citizens who have gone through the proper channels and activities think when they see others laughing at and ignoring our citizenship laws and having everyone fall all over themselves trying to make life easier for these crooks. They must wonder why they ever bothered to do things the right way. I have to wonder too. But anyway, they are crooks who are flaunting our laws. They should not be rewarded with any kind of government assistance other than being forceably assisted back into the country that they came from.

What happened to that? .... It looks like it got ran over by a bush-hog.

Ha-ha .... That would be the start of huge controversy. Everybody has had directly opposing versions of their experiences with those kinds of places. What I have found with our local Gander Mountain is that every time you go in there, there will be a different "expert" behind the archery counter. I have had both good and bad experiences with their people. I haven't done a lot of business at Dicks, but I wouldn't be surprised if it might be the same situation. I have more confidence in listening to a guy that has a bunch of years of experience and the whole future of his business directly at stake and depending on how well he treats his customers or potential customers. I like to hear from the guy who's future in the business relies on straight shooting with people that walk into his store ...... not some guy that may be there for the next few days only to be replaced by some other self appointed expert. That's not to say that there aren't idiots that are owner/operators of their own stores (I've heard a few of those horror stories too). But I just believe that the "mom & pop" style archery store might just take a bit more time and effort to get it right than some guy temporarily standing behind the counter of one of the big-box outdoor stores. Of course, it all depends on availability. I know there are some places in the state where archery stores aren't exactly on every corner. Then, you do what you have to do and include the "big guys". Just filter what you hear with a critical skepticism ...... not a real bad idea no matter where you go.

Noodle- If there was any one of us who could hand you a solution, we wouldn't be wasting our time here. The fact is that we didn't get here overnight. We've been at it for a couple of centuries now. We and those before us have constructed a huge, unmanageable, system that simply is running itself now without the constituents. We talk about getting it all back under control, but the fact seems to be that we don't even have the tools anymore to pull the system back under control. Worse than that, we don't even have the will to do it anymore. At the end of the day there has to be a realization that the mathmatical majority doesn't even want to change the directions that we have been moving. The majority is very happy with all the goodies that the government parcels back out to us. It's the new tyranny. We are being ruled by our own greed. And it truly is an irreversable direction. We've finally reached the point where the recipients out-number the producers. We have produced a new version of Communism that crushed the Soviet Union. We seem to think we can do it better. However, the simple truths of human nature pretty much guarantee that the same results will take place. Man, I am certainly willing to listen to anyone's ideas on how to solve the world's problems, but I have yet to hear any ideas that are anywhere in the realm of reality. I don't believe in magic. And likely this all will not end well.

Do you people really believe that health addicts are all destined to simply quietly pass away one night in their sleep and never experience catostophic illnesses in the process? I know it's unpleasant to face, but the odds are pretty good that as uncomfortable as this little tidbit is, eventually we will all have to face the fact that we will probably be costing quite a bit of cash before we exit this life, and that is regardless of our lifestyle. Death is one thing none of us will escape, and try as we might, we cannot dictate the terms and outcomes of that certainty. I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but none of you will be able to dictate the condition of your demise. But I will guarantee that the longer you live, the more you will medically cost to keep around. Can anyone really argue the fact that the longer we live, the more health care we require. I frequently have occasion to visit a rather large nursing home, and I will tell you that we have the ability to keep a lot of people alive for many years (even decades) now, in fact a lot longer than most of them would prefer. Yes they need constant, super-expensive individual care for all those additional years and nursing homes are bursting at the seams with millions of them. And I suspect that a lot of them have long ago outlived their long-term health insurance policy benefits (if they ever had them to begin with) and are now being primarily subsidized by tax money. Or, at least somebody is paying for it all. So yes, the insurance companies are off the hook. But that doesn't mean that the expenses aren't there even if they no longer show up on some insurance company costs ledger. I think there is an elemental level of logic that says that the longer we hang around, the costs of medically keeping us gets geometrically larger. Those that croak in their 50's or early 60's because they made poor lifestyle choices are perhaps the ones that keep us from being buried in additional decades of healthcare. So for those that want to spout insurance company studies, there just might be a few vital details that they are leaving out about health costs after benefits run out. But I'll bet there are some in the pharmaceutical industry that could paint a different picture of old age maintenance (much to their delight), and show some dandy profit increases as life expectancies continue to lengthen.

Wouldn't you think that would give them a headache? It looks painful.

It sounds like you are not necessarily ready for brand new, top notch equipment, so as has already been suggested, you probably should be looking for a good used bow. That said, it may not really be all that easy. Whatever you buy has to have the proper draw length to fit you exactly. It should also have a reasonable draw weight that you can easily handle (or slightly more so that you can "grow into it"). You will find that even the lightest poundage feels pretty heavy, but withing a very short time, your muscles will be able to handle a reasonable amount more of draw weight. You also may find that your draw length will change slightly too as you continue to hone those muscles. Those are a couple of reasons why I would not suggest spending great gobs of money on your first bow. Also, as you become more proficient, your likes and dislikes will develop and change. So I would suggest that you do this in two stages. First a very cheap starter set-up, and then down the line somewhere, after you have become comfortable with shooting and have developed a few opinions on what you really like, you may then want to step up the quality (and price). There's been a lot of suggestions already made that I completely agree with. You really do need some one-on-one, in-person, help with whatever set-up you go after as your first bow. The idea of visiting archery shops is a good one. There's a lot of measurements, definitions, advice (careful with that one and remember that they are trying to sell you as much as they can), and education involved. Ask questions. Try out different bows with different draw weights. Take a few notes if necessary as you learn things and begin to figure out what you like and what you don't like. Grill these guys just like you were buying a car from them. Customer instruction is part of their job. Also as has been suggested, resist the pressure to buy from the first dealer. Make it clear that you are on a fact-finding mission and will buy at some later date. The reason I say to visit as many bow shops as possible, is that some of these guys are more willing and better at explaining things than others. Also, some of them are not really interested in your needs, but are more interested in getting into your wallet as deep as possible. Also, the selections will vary and the more bows you "test-drive" the more you will learn what works for you and it all becomes part of the process of developing your own custom likes and needs. It also would be useful if you know any local friends that are deep into archery. They also can give you a hand. Be careful with that though. Some are quite opinionated and insistant that you buy what would suit their needs and often that can run the price up with over-priced equipment. What I have found is that when somebody is going berserk trying to convince you that you just have to have Brand-X or some kind of contraption, try to pin them down to solid numerical benefits. In other words, "what does that extra 2.5 feet per second really mean at reasonable target distances". I try not to get too impressed by speed and other little features of questionable practical benefit, and way overboard extra price. That's another reason why I am suggesting a cheaper (perhaps used) starter set-up so that you can find out what is important to you and be able to form judgements as to what features are worth how much money. Don't think that this initial set-up is the last bow and set of arrows you will ever buy ..... lol. That first bow is only the beginning for almost all of us. Once you know things like your required draw length, and what draw weight you can reasonably use for starters, then you are ready to shop for real. At that point, you have enough info to make a purchase. There are a lot of resources for used bows, including Ebay and other on-line resources. Also, you never know, one of the bow shops you visit may have a good deal. They might not offer the best price, but if something goes wrong, at least you have a real person you can go face-to-face with to get it fixed. Now you get into such things as release or no release, what kind of sight system, wrist straps, stabilizers, arrows and all kinds of other toys and trinkets. If you ask a dozen archers about these things you will get a dozen different answers. Again it might be useful to start with basics and let your own personal needs and preferences guide those kinds of purchase. One word of caution: the decision on the release will affect your draw length, so that may be something you have to decide up front. Personally, I use a release, but I know a lot of people that get along just fine shooting fingers. I probably would advise to set your bow up to shoot a release. Most likely that is what you will eventually wind up with anyway. So anyway, you will find out that a bow purchase is one of the hardest things to do. A bow is a custom fit piece of equipment that has more controversy over every feature than any kind of a weapon I know of. So good luck with all your research and decisions and the eventual purchase. One parting piece of advice is that there is no piece of equipment that will make up for a lack of diligent practice. You can not buy accuracy inspite of what a lot of people want to believe. The accuracy and consistancy comes with the archer, not his equipment.

Perhaps the first thing you should do is to examine how much of a challenge you are willing to take on. That has to do with motives and internal needs and such and why you want to get into bowhunting in the first place. I am referring to the choices to go "traditional", or "hi-tech", or somewhere in between. That is a choice that is derived from what exactly you individually want to get from your bowhunting. So, the initial question has to be, "How 'techie' do you want to go?" That makes a huge difference in terms of any equipment set-up that should be recommended.

I'm having a problem understanding why so many are in such a hurry to accuse the original poster of lying. I saw nothing in his post that indicated that these were fresh kills. So I don't really see anything unusual about finding dead deer with antlers in April. I have found them myself. I do agree that any such finds should be reported to the DEC. That's a responsibility that we all really have. Whether it's truly an incidence of poaching or not is really up to the DEC to determine. I do hope the incident was reported and who knows ..... maybe it was.

I do have mixed feelings about Nugent as a personality. I guess I am probably not a fan. But what I take away from all these strange stories of his infractions is maybe not so much about him as it is about the state of our laws (hunting and otherwise). I often wonder just how many laws we break every day without ever knowing it. We have constructed such a tangled web of laws that we now have a condition where even those enforcing the laws cannot always agree on the content or interpretation. It appears that just about anybody could easily be charged with something at about just about any time. What kind of a system is that that makes crooks of us all. I have a complete set of Environmental Conservation Law books of NYS (1984 - 1985), each one 1-1/4" thick, that I defy anyone to read cover to cover without falling into a coma. I also will tell you that what you receive as a hunting syllabus with your license (you know, that comic book sized pamphlet), leaves out at least 80-90% of the legal content. And then I will also state that even if you memorized those 2-1/2 inches of laws, you would not get far into it before you would have a full scale debate over the interpretation. And that debate would last forever even if the ones arguing were lawyers, judges, law enforcement personel, or any other of the supposedly knowledgeable people that are part of the legal system. So what chance do we as laymen have of truly abiding by the law? So I am not one to be a Nugent apologist, but I will say that if our hunting activities were scrutinized to the same extent as his, we might not come out looking so good either. It's probably not a real good idea to be playing the judgemental high and mighty role on this particular subject. Just remember that saying about stones and glass houses. Also, I think he would do well to have his programs previewed by a battery of lawyers before airing them ..... lol. There's an awful lot of anti-gun people that have their sights set on him and are just looking for some material to discredit his apparently effective rhetoric that obviously continues to touch a nerve with them.

The beauty of the products that you mentioned is that they cause people to get sick and die early which takes them off the health care roles that all the health nuts populate for decade after decade. Let's face it those people who live to a ripe old age really cost the system ..... big-time. The rest croak early and cost nothing more than a few weeks of intensive care and then the funeral. We are all going to die sometime. Most of us, healthy or not, will eventually spend those last few final weeks in intensive care. It's just a question of how many will hang around and hang around, long enough to become a burden on the healthcare system. The ones who have figured out how to extend their lives through healthy lifestyles will become the residents of expensive nursing homes with tubes running in and out of their bodies for years on end. Those that live the reckless unhealthy lives will be gone before they reach that state. Which group of people really cost us the most? By the way, I really wouldn't be all that surprised if it isn't the health obsessed people who use up the majority of insurance money with a regular regimen of doctors visits and obtaining a pill or shot for just about whatever ailment we can imagine or undergoing every arbitrary medical procedure that their insurance will pay for. Most of the smokers and drinkers and twinkie-eaters that I have ever known, stay away from doctors and medication. For most of their short lives, they don't cost the health care system anything.

Yes ... I think your stand location is a keeper ..... lol. They seem to like that area.

I really appreciate all the comments and suggestions. I don't know why I always have to get drawn into trying to stretch the limits of everything I buy ..... lol. My initial problem was that I was getting tired of the usual long-distance pictures of the smaller critters, and the obvious look of a tree-mounted cam looking down at them (Always looks un-natural). So, I figured I would just mount the camera at ground level close to the trails that I expected them to be traveling on. Sounds simple enough. Well, I soon found out that really screws up the picture exposure when they are flash pictures which has led into all kinds of new experiments (none of which have so far been all that satisfactory). Oh well, I guess it all keeps me busy and out of trouble......lol.

Thanks for the links guys. It looks like I have some reading to do.

The problem with Round-up is that it only works on plants that are already up and green. So you have to consider that when you get done spending gobs of money, you will have an understory that is brown and wilted and dead for the rest of the season (pretty ugly). Plus, as an additional bonus those things that emerge after you spray will eventually grow up to replace the ones that you killed. I'm not sure what you actually intend for that area, but if there are any aesthetic concerns, weed killers probably are not the answer. In my case, I have a large recreation/picnic/party area over in the woods next to the main yard. Initially years ago, I cut or pulled everybit of brush, weeds and other trash kinds of plants that were growing there with a pair of long-handled nippers, and an axe. Now every year I rake the leaves off down to dirt (because of fire protection, aesthetics, and removing potential bug-homes) and when greenery starts to grow, I head in there with a weed eater and knock it all down. Because it is in the woods and is shaded, I only have to do that once or twice per summer season. Every year it gets quicker and easier to do because nothing ever gets a chance to re-seed. If this is the kind of thing that you are trying to maintain, there are no short-cuts that I know of. Maybe what you're trying to use this area for doesn't have to be that fussy ..... I don't know. But I do know that chemical solutions just leave an ugly mess of brown, withered, dying, bushes behind that seem to last the entire summer, and still the other new crap continues to sprout and grow. Not exactly what I would call attractive.

In the interest of public safety, I have to warn you all that I took the plow off the ATV (pain in the neck to put back on). That is to impending blizzards as washing the car is to rain. Sorry.