Doc

Yes, your claim of "Thousands of sane hunters share the view that the NYB have elitism at their very core" ...... I am simply asking for your source for that ridiculous statement.

Lol .... lets not fight the crossbow battle all over again. Yes that was probably the most devisive issue to come along in my lifetime. And guess what ..... NYB didn't start it. The aggression did not come from NYB. NYB held a completely defensive posture throughout and still does.

What I am saying is that that one experience was so far over the top in terms of soliciting agreement that it is hard to believe that such a response was being anything that would represent a leadership that could be described as elite. This was an action by the head guy of NYB, and I take his actions as representing the leadership of the organization. So it's hard to believe that he singled me out for special treatment. But then, my disagreement was handled in a courteous, polite and respectful manner. Perhaps if I were a more aggressive sort, the debate could have spiraled down into a feud, and maybe I would be the one using the "elite" term and then I could claim mainstream status..... lol. By the way, I have also had dealings with our local regional NYB representative who also is a pretty good guy and extremely interested in discussion of bowhunter matters. My feeling is that this term "elitism" has been thrown around so much that anytime an organization has policy that is contrary to any individual, that "elite" jargon is the first thing that comes out of their mouth. Most of the time it is a term that is never actually experienced and is mouthed by people who have never even been members of NYB. Those that have had an experience that resulted in a feud (and I will point out that only one so far has actually claimed to have had such an experience) hardly makes a trend. And as I said before, we are only hearing one side of that single account. So, other than this one, where are all the horror stories of exclusion? Doesn't it sound more like one case of sour-grapes? As far as the elitist comment, I have heard that primarily from those that don't even bowhunt. Read the comments in the NYS Outdoor News, and you will almost always hear that term used along with the words "those bowhunters". These are obviously not bowhunters. We also have the crossbow advocates who threw that term around freely simply because it sounded good when used against discenting opinion. So don't be sucked into the notion that any large amount of people ever really experienced anything close to elitism personally. Question some of these people a little more closely, and you will first of all find out that they may not even be current bowhunters, secondly that they have never had actual membership in the organization and are simply repeating something that they heard or read somewhere, or thirdly that they have had some sort of policy disagreement and are simply upset because the whole organization didn't stop in their tracks and reverse their position just to please them. There is no way that I will fall in line behind this anti-NYB hysteria until I have witnessed at least a hint of it myself. Except for one person, all I have heard is, So-and so said ...., or I heard that .... or jeez everybody knows that ..... and most of that is from people that wish there never was such a thing as bow season or for whatever reason would just as soon bowhunters give up any form of organization. Frankly, I'll trust my own personal experiences with the organization.

Yeah, I would guess most of us have limitations on how much time we can devote to our pastimes. It's called keeping balance and perspective in our lives. Nothing wrong with that.

So, please explain the personal experiences that you have had that has lead you to this "elitism" claim. And by the way, I would love to see documentation on your claim about "Thousands of sane hunters". That's an easy thing to say, but saying it doesn't necessarily make it so, does it?

That is your twisted view based on some unfortunate situation that you ran into when you were a member. However, I have already described (if you even bothered to read it) treatment from the president of the organization that showed an extreme interest in the opinion of this rank and file member. That was a personal, time consuming and extreme reaction that I have never experienced from the administration of any organization that I have ever belonged to. So that paints a very different picture than what you are trying to sell. If that is "elitism", I think all such organizations could use a dose of that. I have no idea what kind of unhappy experiences you have had, or even if those experiences might have been brought on by your own attitudes and actions, but I'm here to tell you that what you are describing in no way represents any of the kind of people that I have come in contact with.

Much to everyone's relief, I will not be responsing to every mindless unsubstantiated outburst against the NYB. I know that they made a few enemies with their stance on on crossbows, to the point where people have lost their minds over it .... lol. It's too bad that the crossbow issue is more important than bowhunting issues to some, but with some people that is just the way it is. So if you can't help yourself and feel the need to try to destroy the only bowhunter advocacy organization in the state, knock your socks off (I'm sure the PETA folks appreciate your efforts. they hate organized bowhunters even more than you do). I have adequately replied to these attacks already and won't be repeating myself.

No ..... The guy is joking .... right? Hey, maybe not.

Look, if people want to find fault with the NRA, there are plenty right here on this forum that already have done so. And I'm sure you don't have to stretch your memory too much to recall the anti-NRA rhetoric that has been aired here. Everyone who doesn't want to support advocacy organizations seems not to have any real problems with concocting excuses. We've heard them all. NYB was formed to act as an advocacy group for bowhunters. They have there hands full with that. They were not formed to be advocates for crossbows, muzzleloaders, shotguns, rifles, spears, tomahawks or pistols. They are doing what they were formed to do which is 100% focused on bows and arrows and the protection of bowhunting as a viable hunting method. If anyone has been paying any attention at all in recent years, it is obvious that there are a lot of people who now have their eyes on the bow season and are feverishly doing their best to shoe-horn themselves into those weeks and parcel it up for their own use. Is there anyone who is going to seriously deny that? And yes, the bowhunters have found themselves in a defensive posture trying to fend off aggression from others. And yes, that is exactly what the NYB was formed for, and they are doing their job. For those that have problems with bowhunting as a special season or even a hunting activity, with archery oriented special regulations, I can see where they might want to believe that the NYB positions are unreasonably intransigent. They would rather the NYB simply roll over for any special interest group that comes along and demands their piece of the bow season as they take turns parceling it up. I applaud and respect the NYB for not doing that. They are doing the job that they were formed to do.

I guess the one thing that can be said is that I can always move to higher ground. I'm not sure about what can be done to avoid earthquakes, tornados and hurricanes. Ever get a look at the kinds of floods they have around the Missisippi? ..... Now there is a FLOOD! No place to run - no place to hide.

I have heard all of the excuses that people have for not belonging to advocacy organizations. There are all kinds of concocted reasons. It's not just NYB, but I have heard the same crap about the NRA. But I will say that it is one thing to simply not be a "joiner", and quite another to come onto a forum making unsubstantiated allegations with the obvious intent to talk potential members away from joining. There is something kind of insidious about a bowhunter actively trying to keep bowhunters in a totally disorganized and legislatively ineffective state. I understand anti-hunting and animal rights people trying to destroy any attempt at organizing bowhunters, but it is not a behavior I expect from our own ranks. Personally I strongly believe that we need to be organized to react to challenges to our sport. Apparently you do not. That I can live with ...... no harm - no foul .... just incorrect reasoning. However, when someone comes on here spewing false allegations and trying to disrupt those that do believe that bowhunters should be organized, you can always expect a reaction from me.

I know people are getting pretty tired of all this back and forth crap, but then I am not the one who started the malicious, incorrect and, let's call it what it is, basic lying about the way NYB functions. Don't expect me to sit by and let such BS stand without comment. First of all, I will tell you that I had a bit of a disagreement with NYB policy a few years back relating to the actual bowhunting days lost with the saturday opener activities, and I sent in a letter addressed to the president. Now as NYB has been characterized here, one would expect that that would have been the end of it. Well the fact is that the president of NYB sent back his reply, and we went back and forth about 3 times with e-mail correspondance. Finally he called me on the phone (emphasis on the "he called me") and we talked for over an hour and finally came to an agreement. Now inspite of all the anti-NYB, B.S. to the contrary that is being spewed here, I do not see that as representing a closed organization of elite leadership that does not care about opinions of members. And believe me, I am not anyone special, but just a rank and file member. So I don't know where you and other misinformed people are coming from with these crazy comments, but I will tell you that if you want to take the time to challenge things from within, it can be done. Of course, you do have to have enough interest to speak up rather than just sitting at home mumbling to yourself. Now, if you have a problem with legislative alerts, I think you had better familiarize yourself with what advocacy organizations do. That is one of their functions in case you weren't aware. It's a tactic that the NRA uses in exactly the same way, but then you probably don't belong to that organization either. But anyway, you can do with these alerts what you want. That's up to you. Nobody's cramming anything down anyone's throat. They are simply providing the information. Don't fault the organization for doing what they are chartered to do. If you want to be ignorant about pending legislation that relates to bowhunting and who and where to send opinions on that info, that is your right. Throw it out. Nobody is going to show up on your door-step. But for those of us who care about such things, it is somewhat dishonest to characterize that as cramming something down your throat. I call it doing their job. So anyway, if it sounds like I take offense to the malicious and false comments about the NYB being thrown around on this forum, your darned right it pisses me off. I have a lot of respect for the only people that take time out of their busy lives to represent our interests. They're doing a job that no one else has the gumption to do. I don't see anyone else volunteering and yet there are plenty of armchair experts that have plenty to say about how the organization is run when in reality, they truly don't have a clue. So you bet I have a rather short fuse when it comes to those who's only purpose is to simply ensure that bowhunting stays in a disorganized and chaotic state. These are people who would rather see bowhunting decisions left up to those who have no interest in whether bowhunting exists or not. If that is fine with you, so be it. It's a shame that you don't take more interest in an activity that you claim to be so involved with, but neither the NYB or anyone else can change human nature.

Lol ..... I used to cut access trails into my stands so I could quietly enter from the backside without walking on the deer trails. That was until I realized that if you cut a trail, the critters will start using it. I wasn't fooling anybody.

I do not have time to correct all the mis-information you have put out in this reply. Apparently you are getting your info from a single NYB member who shows up at camp. I take it you have never belonged to NYB or even investigated what the organization is about, and really have absolutely no idea or really care about what they do, how they function, what they have done for bowhunting, or really anything at all about them. I really don't know how to answer someone who is that removed from the world of organized bowhunting and still making comments on the subject. I guess the best answer is none at all. I really don't want to give you a migraine by making you actually think "too deep" into the subject. I can only say that your entire reply illustrates why bowhunters are so completely disorganized and so completely out of touch with matters involving the defense, promotion, and advancement of bowhunting in NYS. It's because that's the way they want it.

Damn! that's disgusting. Good grief .... and apparently the media reporter was all too happy to link hunting with the incident. Judging from the x-ray and the description of the organs that it hit, that pretty much would have been a fatality if there had been a broadhead attached. What the heck is wrong with people?

Well, it's not the kind of thing I would throw up and then try to use it the next day ..... lol. But let them age for a year, and the deer simply see them as a harmless blow-down. I may add a little brush during the September time frame just to seal up any holes. I could hold a barn-dance behind those things and the deer never see a thing. It's a great way to minimize exposure for drawing the bow.

And I assume the "large numbers of bowhunters begging for it over and over" is a direct quote without any editorializing ..... lol. By the way if there is any way possible, I would like a link to that quote. It's not that I am doubting your word, but I know how some of this stuff can get accidentally misquoted sometimes. In terms of "elitist crap", I assume you are talking about the crossbow issue. I don't want to get back into that crazy argument other than to say that it is pretty short-sighted to throw a whole bowhunter organization under the bus simply because of a disagreement on such a foolish issue. It does make a convenient issue to try to justify not joining though and there are quite a few people who are using oit exactly that way. By the way, I haven't heard of a whole lot of people who actually tried to join NYB to fight that issue from the inside. That's not quite as easy as sitting on the outside simply sniping at the whole organization over one issue. As far as the 1% speaking for all, that really is not such a strange condition, especially when you are dealing with a bunch of freeloaders who will take whatever the NYB does for them without bothering to join. Good deal for them .... eh? Also, your spokespeople are not always of your choosing, especially if you choose not to get involved. Those who have the backbone, ambition and dedication to take up the reins of leadership do generally wind up to be the authority that gets the attention of the powers that be. It's the old perception vs. reality argument. And it certainly is not their fault if the rest of the bowhunters fail to have any sense of dedication and organization. As to your last point, is that some kind of volunteering that I am hearing? That would be a refreshing change to finally hear someone who isn't just content to sit back, bitching all the time, but who actually would put their actions where their mouth is. Certainly it should be easy to wrest control from a mere 1% of the bowhunters. However, don't be surprised if within weeks or months, you become the target of the whining, bitching and moaning, and you wind up with 1% or less of the bowhunters for members. Advocacy groups become excellent targets for petty nit-picking especially when it comes to hunters. And it also seems to be human nature to take whatever freebies that are offered without actually joining. That doesn't seem to bother people one bit.

When they say it was a hunting arrow, do they mean it was tipped with a broadhead? As far as I know a broadhead is the only thing that differentiates a hunting arrow from any other arrow. If she was shot in the back with a broadhead tipped arrow, it is a miracle that she is still alive.

vietvet - I enjoyed the picture and thanks for posting it. It's not always the most friendly group you'll ever run into, but I just thought I would let you know that I did appreciate the picture.

Just how many people comprised this "large number of bowhunters"? What sources are you using that says that "large numbers of bowhunters" demanded anything? What possible evidence do you have that there was even a peep out of this so -called "large number of bowhunters". What I do know because I am a member of NYB and have followed the issue since its inception is that they publicly began the pressure back when the Saturday opener rules were implemented and we lost season length. That's not guessing, that is fact. At that point, the NYB began their lobbying efforts for an October 1 opener. Not anybody else. Not some mythical groundswell of bowhunters .... the NYB by themselves. My experience with hunters in general is that they do not rise up and speak their minds to anyone other than each other. So no, I don't buy your claim that there is some grass roots bowhunter activity that is at work on our behalf on any bowhunting issues. That is pretty much wishful thinking. Yes the NYB is suffering from membership shortages, and this constant self-destuctive carping over this and that is the main reason why. But, that small percentage of bowhunters known as the NYB fortunately has the ear of the DEC and the legislature, and whether anyone likes it or not, they are the only valid and recognized voice of bowhunters to the movers and shakers that have anything to do with bowhunting rules and regulations. No, we don't always get our way, but our way is the only official bowhunter voice in the state. So rather than sitting back and throwing darts at our own organization, you would think that those who have such strong feelings about some of the decisions, and some of the administration, would get off their dead rumps and try to fix it to become what they think it ought to be. Also, the only elitest, close-minded attitudes that I see at work are those that think there is something cool about badmouthing the only representation that bowhunters have in this state. Instead of strengthening and unifying, we are nit-picking and self-destructive. Everyone has something to say about the organization and it's administration, but no one is doing a thing to change it .... proving how much easier it is to criticise than it is to do something positive. The anti-bowhunting rhetoric that has been launched against the NYB is akin to the threat by the animal rights group to end bowhunting. There are two kinds of people in this state that absolutely revel in the fact that the bowhunters are completely disorganized, and the antis are one of them. Wouldn't it be nice if the rest would try to do something positive instead of simply assisting the antis in their campaign against organized bowhunting representation.

Yeah, I'm a lifetime New Yorker. And yes, I will complain about the taxes and the jerks in Albany right along with the best of them. But, here devastating tornados are a one in a lifetime event. We have an occasional paralyzing snowstorm, or icestorm, but nothing that threatens my house. Floods? ..... yeah, the nuisance variety. But no one talks about our part of the country cracking up and sliding out into the ocean. Hurricanes? ..... worst one was Agnes, and that is a old-time memory now. We don't have it so bad. We have some of the widest variety of topography from the plains of central NY to the hills of the finger lakes, to the mountains of the High Peaks Area. State land just about everywhere you look. Four real distinct seasons. Well balanced growing season. No poisonous snakes (at least not in my area). Fantastic landscape just about everywhere. Job opportunities (has been better, but still not devastated). And you can still find rural areas with thin populations to live in without someone sitting on your elbow. Good healthcare, decent infrastructure, Fantastic fishing, even some good trapping for those who get into that. All the conveniences that you need within a short drive. Sure we got a Cuomo, and a Schumer, and we even had a Clinton, but somehow we seem to be able to survive these idiots. The thing I've found is that the grass always seems greener on the other side of the fence. Listen closely to people from other states, and you'll soon recognize the same kinds of complaints and problems and sometimes a bunch of new ones that we have never experienced. I'll be finishing out my days here, and enjoying almost every minute of it. Sure I'll whine and complain to anyone who will sit still and listen, but in the end, it is a fact that I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

Another method of constuction that I favor is an "wall" blind. Basically it is built from some big fat tree. We have some huge mature trees that are big enough to hide behind and draw your bow. When they are not wide enough, they can have logs and brush stacked along the side. Preferably, I will see the incoming deer and get behind the "Wall" so I can shoot from a standing position where my drawing motions will not be detected. When I am drawn, I either tip out from behind the tree or let the deer continue along the trail until he is exposed on the other side. Properly built of old existing weathered logs, they look fairly natural and will last for years. Eventually, they simply become a natural part of the landscape. Works pretty well. What I like about your design is that you have 360 degrees of cover and view. Deer don't always cooperate by coming down the trail .... lol. I have been caught by deer coming in behind me for absolutely no reason whatever, and there I sit with absolutely no cover ...... Gotcha! It's happened more than once. The last picture is a bit hard to pick out. It is dead center of the picture and is a deer's-eye view at 20 yards.

I have never heard that before, but I'm thinking that method may be right on target. It never ceases to amaze me as to the silly looking gymnastics that some people go through try to draw their bow. So much has been written about the need for super arrow speed that people regularly over-bow themselves. This "rule of thumb" would definitely keep that from happening.

By the way, the fact that you are even getting an opening day of October 1st is 100% due to the efforts of the only bowhunter advocacy group in NY ..... the NYB. Had it not been for their constant lobbying, you would still be wondering why we start our season so late. Nobody else is out there pushing archery issues, and there are no other people in NYS that gives a rat's behind whether bow season even exists. As far as opening up opportunities for youth hunting, I have to point to the NYB operated youth hunts in Cador and in Syracuse. Let me also mention their work in providing money and instructor training for the National Archery in the Schools Program. I might also point out their successful lobbying for the use of DMPs for junior archers with no additional fee. Also there is the NYB Youth Camp that has exposed 1400 young adults to archery since the program's inception. You might note that they, being the only NYS bowhunter advocacy group at work in our state, are responsible for legislative pressure and success at lowering the bowhunter age to 12 ....... And on and on and on. I think they have done their part toward recruiting youths into hunting with good logical targeted efforts and programs. They probably don't deserve the constant nit-picking attacks that people have become so fond of launching (especially bowhunters who profess dedication to hunting with a bow but fail to do one thing toward furthering the sport). The fact is that there is no other group that keeps bowhunter's issues before the legislature ...... None. I have only listed some of the activities that involve youth hunting recruitment. I am not going to take up the space to list the legislative achievements, and the programs for disabled archers, and the programs for our service people overseas or other benefits that we all take for granted that were secured for us by the organization that so many want to see destroyed. There are a lot of young people who would never have been introduced to archery and bowhunting if these anti-NYB people had their way. Nobody has any problem with cheerfully reaping the benefits of the hard work of the NYB, but seem to be willing to discourage any support of the only bowhunters who have ever lifted a finger or dipped into their pockets to provide any benefits at all for all bowhunters over the last 21 years. Sorry to get off on a tangent, but frankly I get a bit tired of this incessant whining and sniping from people who offer absolutely no thoughts or ideas or activities about alternative organizations.

My initial reaction is that I would be surprised if this special season is even noticeable to bowhunters. I could be wrong, and since my hunting is almost exclusively on state land, I might be in for a rude surprise ..... lol. That remains to be seen. But I don't expect significant participation. But my point about the special season is simply that I don't see any reason why anyone should expect that hunters who do not take kids afield for hunting now during the regular season will all of a sudden get involved in taking kids afield during any special season. In fact, a special season represents even more effort on their part than if it was a normal day of hunting during a regular season when they were going to be out there anyway. Where is all this sudden outpouring of hunters helping kids into the sport going to come from? .... simply by declaring a couple of days as a special youth hunt? Sounds like a bunch of wishful thinking without a whole lot of logic behind it. Yes, we can flail around trying this and trying that and the only thing that really gets accomplished is that everyone assumes someone else is taking care of the problem because they have established all these fancy special seasons. Instead of fooling ourselves with special gimmicks, I would rather see programs established to recruit mentors during the regular season. Don't ask me what would get hunters to take up this kind of activity, but if we are going to pin our hopes on anything, lets get behind mentor recruitment and stop trying to cram new seasons into the year everytime somebody gets a brain-fart. Aim the solutions at the problems instead of just seeing how much controversy we can stir up. I'm thinking the DEC needs to open up a line of communications with archery and gun clubs and similar organizations and try to enlist their assistance with recruitment and mentoring. I think a PR activity at the time of license sales needs to begin to explain the crisis and the potential roles that hunters could and should take as a solution. These are things that will really make a difference, not trying to tear apart the hunting community with meaningless special seasons. I'm thinking that a lot of this cry for special seasons comes from people who do not currently get involved, and are hoping that merely creating the season will get someone else to handle it for them. The pitiful thing of it all is that no one has to go out with gangs of kids or go through any heroic efforts to maintain the inflow of new hunters. Simply replacing yourself and maybe one or two others along the way would do the trick. That's all it takes, and it is truly hard to believe that each one of us can't bring one or two people into the sport. What the heck is so important about what we are doing that we can't do something like that? I see the DEC as the catalyst for making this happen, and it really shouldn't take half as much effort as all this fighting and arguing about inappropriately stuffing seasons into other seasons in ways that are guaranteed to cause the maximum amount of controversy.