Doc

Another logical and predictable outcome. Of course it's not like the penalties are too lenient .....lol. $200 -$2000 fine, possible year in jail, possible loss of hunting priviledges. Just another way for honest people to be turned into criminals for making a simple point-counting mistake.

I keep forgetting to go out town and pick up a copy. I might go out for supper tonite and stop in to get one. Thanks for reminding me.

Hunting pants???? ........ $100 ????? ........ how about a good pair of denim britches? Sorry, I know what you are talking about. I just don't wear them. I have some insulated long underwear and a pair of dungarees and I put the real money in what goes up on the top-side. I think I would be looking in Cabelas, BassPro, or Gander mountain for what you're after.

I believe that is true. You and others have decided that hunting should be measured in inches and that the sport of hunting and the people in it should be changed to accomodate that revision in measurement of satisfaction. Others of us try to make hunting a bit more than that. I do get the feeling that the activity of hunting gets a bit cheapened when it is reduced down to numbers and a demand that only an animal of certain stature is to be appreciated and pursued. It seems to me that there has to be something more to it all than that. For one thing, the numbers game signifies a competition with other hunters instead of with the animal itself. That may be ok to some extent. I have gotten involved with some light hearted rivalries of that sort with hunting partners, but that's all it was was light hearted rivalry. It never led me to trying to force them to hunt using my goals or to try to dictate what criteria they should apply to their hunting satisfaction. I find that strange behavior and really wish it was not part of today's hunting scene. Today this antler-mania has taken on a bit of a pushy look to it. It's not really a very attractive change in hunter persona. I see all kinds of no-holds-barred approaches to getting antlers at any cost, and AR is just a part of it all. Perhaps that is what the modern age of hunting is destined to become, and if so, perhaps that explains why some hunters have just decided that hunting is no longer worth doing. Doc

Sounds logical to me.

Well that never seemed to happen in the past (pre AR) when hunter population was higher than it is today (at it's peak) . However, I will agree that the TV set and the hunting video industry and now the AR proponents have been focusing on fixating hunters on expectations and downright demands they are complete failures if they don't collect some kind of "book-buck". Today it's quite easy to flim-flam the hunting public into thinking that what they see on TV is what AR would provide. And the pro-AR crowd is doing its darndest to promote such thinking and expectations. Probably in the long run these kinds of sales pitches may very well bring on the result you are talking about, with or without the adoption of AR.

Above are a few of the topics that I mentioned before that I would like to see covered. That's only a starter list. Primarily what I would like is anything that doesn't continually repeat the same old, word-for-word, exact, tired, story line, and chain of events decades, of decades past. Doc

So I guess the object is to make the harvesting of bucks as difficult as possible. Cut down on harvesting yearlings, while harvesting the older deer remains a rarity too. In short, the system is designed to cut the buck harvest. Eventually, you can frustrate a bunch more hunters right out of the season and eliminate even more deer being taken. I suppose that's a plan ....... of sorts ;D . I wonder if anyone worries about the younger hunters with little or no experience, or the older ones who can't hunt quite as vigorously as they once could, or disabled hunters, or the guy who only can get out there a couple days a year because of trying to earn a living. I listen to all these AR proponents talk of 'putting in their time', and being forced to hunt deer of someone else's choosing, and wonder if these people ever think about anyone but themselves and their own personal circumstances. And then there is the penalty for making a point-counting mistake which ranges from $200 - $2000 with up to one year in jail and possible revocation of your hunting license. Pretty darn steep for simply miscounting points. Let's all rush out and push through another law that makes a criminal out of a simple hunting mistake.

;D I could do that!!!!

Is that right? There's no legal minimum hunting age for hunting in PA????? So do they have any supervisory requirements, or do they just shove a gun in their hands and tell them to go outside and play? That seems a bit weird to me. Doc

One of the things that makes me a bit of a skeptic is the verification inaccuracies or it's probably better to say the potential inaccuracies. I have seen a lot of rut activity over the years, but I am also aware of how easy it is to miss being in the right place at the right time to witness or record changes in that activity. For example, I have seen the most obvious sign of rut activity where bucks are chasing does all over the woods. Usually none of that occurs on any trail, but rather is just a doe's panicked attempt to get away from the buck. On some of the same days that I have seen this craziness going on, My brother-in-law a few ravines over saw nothing. I have also had the opposite happen where he saw the action and I saw nothing. All the signs of rut are extremely local and sporadic, so for me to actually detect the exact day that some phase of rut commenced or spiked, gets to be somewhat coincidental. The other thing that I would have problems defining is whether whatever I saw was 1 unique happening or whether deer all through the woods are doing the same things. Another example is determining when the first scrape activity has commenced. I find a scrape ..... can I state with any certainty that that is the first scrape of the season? Can I assume that all the rest of the bucks in the woods have begun their scrape activity on that day or even close to that day? How many years or decades of observations does it take to be able to state exact dates and conditions when certain phases of rut have commenced and are indeed following some theory. Sounds like a pretty tough thing to document in stone to the point where the theory becomes fact. Can it even be done? What exactly is the proper scientific system for the verification process? I can concoct theories, but what army am I going to use to verify my theories? :-\ Doc

I took your advice, and here's what I found: Re: Do you wear Orange? If so why? If not Why not? « Reply #48 on: July 14, 2010, 09:12:22 pm » When huntng sate land, I wear orange. On private property no. ---------------------------------------------------------- « Reply #101 on: August 15, 2010, 05:53:44 pm » If you feel more secure in orange, so be it. If I feel secure in camo, so be it. ----------------------------------------------------------- « Reply #113 on: August 16, 2010, 06:03:11 am » I feel that bo is as big a gimmick as having the have the newest camo patterns to hunt. ---------------------------------------------------------- So, I think it's pretty clear that you do not wear blaze orange on private land. Further, you feel that blaze orange is a "gimmick". And apparently you feel perfectly secure in camo during gun seasons. What makes all this even worse is that you are a hunting safety instructor who is passing all this ridiculous garbage on to future hunters. That's frightening!! Doc

Easy there big guy ...... calm down. You have your opinion and I have mine. You just happen to be wrong is all ...... lol. By the way are you ever going to read the info on those links I supplied so you can finally sound a little bit like you know what you're talking about. Try learning a bit about the nature of hunting accidents and maybe it will start to come clear to you why a mandatory blaze orange law during the gun season will save lives and has anywhere the people had the sense to apply it. Maybe you will even discover for yourself why any sensible person might use their intelligence a bit and pick and chose which seasons it actually makes sense and where it doesn't. It's all right there if you want to take the time to educate yourself. That old saying about leading a horse to water really does hold true . Doc

Thanks! I'm off to check it all out.

Could you tell us the origin of that info, or someplace where I could access it? It sounds like the DEC has indeed spent some time analyzing the results of the AR test WMUs, like I have been asking for. I would like to start collecting that kind of info. Doc

I've got to tell you that I spend about as much time out there hunting and scouting and jawboning with other hunters as anyone I know, and it beats me how you have been able to canvass hunters in two WMUs, and perform deer surveys over that many square miles such that you can tell us the hunter attitudes and the deer herd conditions across that much area. It's an enviable feat, and I really must admire your ability to do what all of the DEC has not. Personally, I don't even try to speak for the hunters of even a small part of our one WMU and whenever I speak of deer conditions, I always make sure that everyone understands that I am only speaking of that acreage that I personally hunt which is not a significant amount of square miles within our WMU. There's no way that I would speak for the hunters or herd conditions of two WMUs and I'm surprised that you think you are able to. Maybe those two areas that you are talking about are a lot smaller than they look on the map . Doc

Yeah, and I guess we can satisfy ourselves with crap. But speaking of "free will", I still have the right to speak out and criticize that crap if I feel like it, and I sure wouldn't want anyone to think that some of that crazy nonsense is simply flying over my head without recognition or disapproval, or that I'm in love with the cartoon depiction of hunting that these fakes think they're getting away with. Doc

Yup! that's why I never took up golf.

Deer and turkeys eat the same stuff. Do you suppose that over the centuries they have developed an understanding of that fact so that turkey presence means food to them? That might make a turkey decoy more than just a calming feature. It may actually make a decoy an attractant. ...... Just guessing at all that of course. Doc

Is there anybody who has the actual credibility of training and actual data who is conducting any studies on these "test areas"? The anecdotal comments are fun to hear, but if you are trying to actually convince people that AR do work, it sure is great to have some official, scientifically derived data to show rather than individual "impressions". The point of my reply about the increasing size bucks in our non-AR area was to point out that there are many reasons for deer herd improvements and they may not all have to do with AR. What I would really like to see is some of the info from the DEC (or Cornell) that reaches conclusions and explanations that are derived in a scientific way rather than just simply unsubstantiated opinion. So the question is, is anyone actually using this test lab to actually learn something? Is the DEC taking the opportunity to pull data and analyze it, or is this opportunity being frittered away. By the way, I would like to also have the effect on hunter participation in those areas studied to see if there has been any residual loss of hunter population due to the restrictions. Is anyone aware of any studies being conducted along those lines in those trial AR WMUs? Better yet, does anyone have access to such info? Doc

She's found something to eat. Whether it's something naturally occurring or something that someone has purposely put on the ground, it is definitely not just a scrape. I would suggest that you might pay attention to that spot a bit because you may have a tresspasser setting up a hunting opportunity for himself. Otherwise, you may have a natural attraction that may be useful for your own hunting. Doc

I don't understand. Are you saying that the Muzzleloaders Association wanted a distance rule shortened for bow hunters, or they wanted it shortened to 250 feet for all weapons, or for muzzleloaders, or what? Reduced for bow hunting only. The NYSMLA proposed the regulation change. Why on earth is the muzzleloading association concerned about liberalizing a bowhunting restriction?

Doesn't it make you just a bit offended that these people think so little of hunters that they would have the arrogance to think that no one would notice or care how absolutely fake all that stuff is? What are they trying to say about our intelligence?

You didn't even get the point I was making, did you? It went right over your head. ...... No, I'm not going to get drawn off into irrelevant side discussions about helmets and seatbelts. I think I have been clear in my response, and I really can't waste time attempting to have a sensible discussion with someone who cannot (or will not) recognize the difference in magnitude between the need for B/O in a gun season and B/O in a bow season. : If you ever decide to read some of the data in those links and actually educate yourself on the facts of the subject, you will see that there is no data that would show the need for B/O in a bow season, but that the need in gun season is clear. Open your mind up for a change and actually read some of the data that I have spoon-fed to you rather than trying to deflect and sideline the discussion into random irrelevant directions. I will just leave you with this thought: you are welcome to defend the right for you to be stupid, and I will continue to support laws that might save your life inspite of yourself. While you are worrying about the great fashion dillema that such a law might cause you, hopefully NYS will recognize what so many other states have already implemented and actually look at the data that they themselves have collected (which is in those links that you obviously are ignoring), and someday pass a blaze orange law to protect some of these idiots from themselves and humanitarian issues aside, save the taxpayers the expense of taking care of the mess left behind by these un-thinking idiots. Doc

Yeah, that's kind of what I was saying. I have been seeing older bucks being taken in our area in recent years and we're not even close to an AR unit. There are many reasons why deer size would suddenly jump and in our case, AR is definitely NOT one of them. Doc