Doc

I don't know about the "variety of weapons" point, but there must be some appeal to the things. I hate to keep repeating the same point, but more than half of the participants in Ohio's bowseason now choose to hunt with a crossbow. That does not mean that the same thing will happen here, but it does indicate that a lot of people over there think there's some way that crossbows have some advantages over compounds and other bows. No one should under-estimate the potential impacts that crossbows can have on bowseasons. I just think that the impacts are not going to be immediate, but will take a few years to have the full effect felt. Even in Ohio, it didn't all happen over-night. Doc

I find that aging the venison adequately makes bone removal a lot easier. They tend to slide out a lot easier and cutting them out really is not necessary. Saves a lot of effort. Doc

A few years back, I dragged out some old Bear razorheads (approx. 1965 vintage) and wiped out a 9 point buck with a complete pass-through and a super healthy blood trail. The bow was set at 55#. With a few exceptions, I think we worry way too much about which broadhead to use. Given adequate poundage, and a well tuned, straight flying arrow, there aren't a whole lot of selections that won't do the job. Doc

I have shot both and the only difference is what you have already discovered ....... Get the feathers wet and you can have a mess. A lot can have to do with the rest that you use and how well your bow is tuned. Feathers have a lot more forgiveness of slight interferences. Vanes do not like that sort of thing at all. Doc

I believe that such a change would be disasterous to hunter numbers. I am of the opinion that there are many hunters who are on the brink of quitting anyway, Such a slap-in-the-face as cranking license fees followed by hacking their season length and then given the insult of being told to make up the difference with a crossbow would most likely be the straw that breaks the camel's back. As I have written many times here, the signs are there that hunters are not as dedicated or enthusiastic as they were years ago. I see a lot of 1/2 day hunters or those that show up only for opening day. It won't take a lot to push them out. What other states may or may not have done decades ago means nothing about our situation today. I think you would look long and hard before finding one state that has slashed their hunting seasons in the fashion that you are suggesting and most likely you simply would not find any at all. And of those few if any that you actually find, it most likely will turn out that such a change was done when hunting was in a much stronger, traditionally sound condition than today.

Frankly, I don't even think I agree that the idea is any sort of improvement over the current structure, but perhaps after all this time, you should be at least forwarding your thoughts to the DEC, and maybe dropping into some gun club meetings, or checking with some NYSCC meetings or members, or planting the idea in some friends that are members of any of these kinds of organizations just to see what kinds of reactions you can get (always know the location of the nearest exit before bringing it up though). Maybe you can actually get someone who are members of some of these organizations to go along with the idea and try to put your thoughts into some kind of reality. Everytime I have one of these brain-farts, I send it in to the DEC. In fact not too long ago they were all over the place soliciting these kinds of suggestions and begging the hunters for their thoughts on improvement. I sent them a bookful of things that I have been talking about on these forums. You may not have anymore luck at affecting change than I have, but at least there is some satisfaction in knowing that you didn't just sit on an idea witholding it from those that have the power to make it happen. We cover a lot of ground here on this forum and it's always good to use other hunters as sounding boards for our thoughts. but until these ideas actually reach someone who is in the driver's seat, a lot of those thoughts will simply never become reality. Frankly, I'm not sure that what you are proposing is even a good idea or has any merit at all. Actually, I doubt it. But then I'm not the one that needs convincing. Doc

Oh come on ..... you aren't seriously going to pursue that crazy argument are you? If you want to see how long they have had their present season structure go ahead and look it up. I'm just trying to inject a tiny bit of reality here based on what everybody knows about the NYS hunter attitudes, and the DEC attitudes. Why you or anybody would think that the gunhunters would tolerate having their season slashed to th extent you are talking is beyond me. And to think you could placate them with a crossbow alternative is simply ludicrous. Why don't you try it out on some NYSCC meetings and see if you get out of there alive ....... lol. I'm sorry to be so blunt with my criticism of your idea, but you do have to keep some perspective that includes some element of reality. Doc

I would have no problem with that at all, and it makes a whole lot of sense. I wonder how many dead hunters are still receiving licenses, hunting and fishing booklets, and the other stuff that they mail out every year. Doc

If you believe that, I've got a bridge ........ Just think about what you just said, and try to imagine convincing even a tiny portion of the gun hunters to buy into that. And don't try to compare to Ohio. Those hunters grew up with that arrangement. Nobody came along and tried to whack on their gun seasons to the extent suggested here. Look, I come up with some pretty hair-brained management schemes myself, but there has to be some small amount of realism involved or it all amounts to nothing more than a fantasy. I believe that if you spend a couple minutes thinking about it, and then try to consider how you would implement this in a realistic manner, you will understand the kind of revolt you would have on your hands if you ever tried such a deal. A revolt not only among hunters but within the DEC as well. Doc

There must have been something really good there to eat for them to come back in. What were they feeding on ... could you tell? That might be a good spot to periodically check out in the future. Doc

So you think that you can toss a crossbow to a gunhunter and then tell him, "Here use this and by the way this is what you will be using instead of your gun when we knock a bunch of weeks off gun season". What? ..... you think these guys are nuts? If you want to see the hunting community really torn apart, just try proposing a stunt like that. Yeah, I can picture that ...... We just cranked the license fees through the roof and now we are going to tell the overwhelming majority of hunters that they can't use their firearm of choice for most of the season that they used to have. Or maybe this is a scheme to try to force gunhunters/crossbows into bowseason. More likely it is a scheme to simply drive hunters out of the sport. It would very effectively do that. First of all, I don't think you will ever find anyone of authority that will go along with that scheme. Certainly not the DEC. They are already concerned that they may not have the ability to control the herd with the diminishing number of hunters that they have got. There is no way that they are going to cripple their major deer-killing tool and punish the gun-hunters. I'm not even going to argue the merits of what you are proposing. I'm just curious as to what world you actually believe this could ever happen in. Let's get real! Doc

Based on absolutely nothing at all, I suspect that there will not be a large immediate rush out there to buy these things at first. However, I do have to recognize that over half of Ohio's bowseason deer are taken with a crossbow ....... over half. So apparently there are some reasons that people go for these things. That number has to represent one heck of a lot of people, wouldn't you say? Yes it took them 30 some years to get into that condition (actually a lot less than 30 years because it has been that way for quite a few years now), but there obviously is some kind of appeal that people here are not talking about. Doc

No argument from me. We covered it all in the old forum. Look, I don't care which side of this issue anyone comes down on as long as they keep an open mind. Frankly no one has convinced me on either side. I see dueling studies, each one just as convincing as the other. I hear eye-witness accounts, and they seem to be just as conflicted as the studies and reports. Does anyone have anymore credibilty than anyone else? ..... not to me. To me it is all a bunch of nonsense that everyone seems to heavily invest their emotions in. As I have said many times, the whole issue is very, very, very far down on my list of priorities. When I see some of the more basic difficulties that this state and others have with wild game management, I find it very difficult to get all excited about a concept whose very nature is designed to cut opportunities and perhaps cost us the loss of even more hunters than is happening now. Especially something that is based on a science that even the so-called experts don't seem to agree on. So if you are seeing some improvement in your local herd, I am happy for you. Over here in Western NY, we are seeing the same thing. Is it due to AR? ........ certainly not here it isn't. and in this chunk of the state we seem to have accomplished the same results without trying to legislate what people are mandated to consider a trophy in their own mind and their own hunting experiences. Doc

I think just about any camo sold today will suffice. It is more about movement when it comes to catching a deer's attention. When you are drawing that bow, swatting that mosquito, or just fidgeting around, you are at a high risk of being detected whether you have Realtree or Mossy Oak, or just blue-jeans and checkered flannel. I don't count on camo patterns to cover up sloppy stand techniques. Deer really aren't that sharp at picking images out of the backgrouns and analysing what they are unless it moves.

Yeah, you got that right. Let's hurry up and get this done so we can rush on to the next thing. You got anything that will make this easier and quicker so I don't have to spend anymore time at this hunting thing than necessary? It's a real shame that we can't at least learn how to apply a different mentality when it comes to our recreations. But I guess it's hard to just flip a switch and all of a sudden change our attitudes. Doc

I am not much of an expert on binoculars. I have a fairly powerful set of binocs that I bought a jillion years ago from sears. They are super clear and have a fair size field of view and plenty of magnification. I generally use them during gun season for still hunting. It takes a pile of patience, but I genearly take a couple of very slow steps, and then stop and thoroughly glass every inch of what's ahead of me. It takes forever to make any progress through a woods, but you would be surprised how all of a sudden you will see an ear, or a tip of an antler, or spot a small patch of fur that is just the right color, or catch a slight movement of a tail. It's not a process for those with little patience, and you have to keep telling yourself over and over to slow down. But I do find it very productive. Doc

You know, I am getting sick and tired of people spitting out that word "killing" when it come to hunters, as if there is something evil about performing the inevitable and traditional product of hunting. For those that simply want to watch deer go by season after season, save yourself some money and go buy a camera. As for myself, I'll not be apologizing for killing a deer (big, medium or small). Anybody has a problem with that ....... tough! Doc

The other thing that I have noted is that any changes in approaches to hunting is not necessarily a generational thing. There's an awful lot of old-timers that out there trying to buy success with every new gadget coming down the pike. Looking for shortcuts just seems to be human nature.

I kind of laughed my butt off at the news that New Jersey was forced to open their bear season again. As any reasonable person could have predicted, with bear seasons closed there by the wacko, animal rights governor and the accompanying merry band of pinkos, the populations exploded, the nuisance calls about bears exploded, the damage done by bears exploded, the close encounter between residents and bears exploded. They just plain took the place over ...... lol. So next time anyone starts to give you grief about hunting, remember New Jersey's story. It was text-book! Doc

Here's a related question that has always been rumbling around in my head: When a WMU experiences a high harvest, does that information mean that permits should be bumped up because apparently the population must be high there? OR Does it mean that permit numbers should be slashed because so many deer were taken out that the population must be getting low? Anybody ever hear which spin the DEC puts on big harvest numbers in a WMU? Doc

And all either opinion, not backed with any evidence, or just plain invalid. Not a drop of bias in that comment eh? ;D

You know I can't really say what the name of my cold weather camo pattern is. I know it is a suit with the Remington name on it, but I don't know what camo they used. And then, I have a ghillie suit. Now that's some serious camo. I can be nearly invisible practically in front of you. The only problem is that I really can't shoot the bow while wearing that thing. It's great for predator hunting and turkey hunting. Doc

Well, we seem to have a few articles referred to in this thread that seem dispute some of that. Frankly I don't know one way or another. I haven't had the case proven to me one way or another. Also, I have to admit that as a priority, the issue of AR sits very, very, very low on my list of things that I would like to have the DEC studying or implementing. In terms of importance, I don't really see the issue as being anything other than some tiny insignificant item way way down on my wishlist. What I don't want to have happen is for the DEC to start jumping onto every fad management idea that comes along with a fancy sales job, especially those things that have more than one differing expert opinions involved. Doc

I'll have to see if I can find out more on that. I know I have heard that there is a relationship between brainworm in moose and the presence of deer. Doc