Doc

Some increases in bag limits may help, but as I understand it, they have a heck of a time getting rid of all the permits they now offer. Also, even after they do issue pocketsful of permits, the percent success is not really all that high which indicates that either hunters aren't that good, or they simply do not try to fill all the permits that are issued to them. So there may be some limits as to what higher bag limits can really achieve. Doc

If there is any kind of significant rain, I will not bowhunt. Blood-trailing is the concern. In gun season, I will hunt a rain, but only take super high percentage shots that are guaranteed to result in either a knock-down or a very short trail. Certain drizzley days will definitely put deer in an extreme funk where they walk around only half paying attention. I think it really screws up their senses of smell and hearing and the act so damned dozey, I'm not sure they really are looking around all that much either. Super heavy snow storms seem to have a similar effect. Doc

I'm set at 55#. Everything is all tuned up and flying like darts. Even though I feel like I could shoot a lot more, I ain't touching anything. In the past I have shot up to 80 pounds. I did that the years that we went on our moose hunts. I was heavy into field archery tournament, regularly shooting 112 arrows plus a bunch on the practice range and then shooting a Wednesday night league and a whole bunch of at home practice, all with that 80# draw weight. That was only a 35% let-off then too. HOWEVER That was also the year that I deer hunted in a howling wind on a super cold day (teens or less) and had to try 3 times to get my bow back when a deer came in. All that flailing around trying to pull that thing back finally caught the deer's attention and away it went before I could shoot. Muscles don't like all that hunched up tension against the cold. Also even though I have been pretty lucky, I do know quite a few guys that had some severe shoulder problems from pulling heavy weight bows for too long. They do take a toll. I have had some elbow difficulties myself but that was more from too much shooting than having the weight up too high. I already had lowered the bow down to 65 pounds when that occurred, but I was spending an awful lot of time shooting. All of a sudden, I noticed that my elbow swelled up with a huge soft lump about the size of a golf ball. I had to go into the doctor and have some fluid drawn off and then rested that arm for about a month before cautiously starting to use it again. That was scary. So I guess the message is to shoot the heavier poundages with extreme caution and an understanding that it could be trouble. The human body does have some limitations. Doc

He broke the law ....... he got caught ........ fry him! End of discussion. The man has no more standing than anyone else. He's not above the law. If he thinks he is then I hope he is convinced otherwise. Do I sympathize with his situation? ....... no. If he truly didn't understand the laws of the state that he was hunting, then maybe he has learned something about what he must do next time he goes hunting. As far as his fines, I doubt that he will even feel it. It kind of ranks right up there with a very light slap on the wrist. Don't be wasting any sympathy on him. He doesn't need it. Doc

Are you really trying to tell us that you cannot buy opportunities to harvest trophies? You can't really be that naive? Thats not what Im saying at all. Nice try though. Well then Oak's original statement is not really a "crock of you know what", is it? ("the more money one has, the bigger bucks they can shoot").

Oh, that would happen for sure, you can count on it. Murphy's Law will definitely set you up. Doc

Are you really trying to tell us that you cannot buy opportunities to harvest trophies? You can't really be that naive?

That last bit is some pretty scary stuff .... eh? I've been wondering about that idea of a shrinking hunter force. I know that the DEC still has a lot of tricks up its sleeve in terms of making each hunter more productive, but one has to wonder just what will happen when they feel that hunters are totally incapable of contolling deer populations. One has to wonder how much of that thought enters into their harvest targets today. One has to wonder if some of our privileged seasons that feature "challenge" (bow and muzzleloader) may eventually be considered an inappropriate waste of hunting time. One has to wonder how many of the DEC policies have already been altered with inadequate hunter numbers in mind. Yeah, there could be some pretty significant changes ahead if these trends continue.And by the way, can anyone think of any reason why that trend won't continue and even accelerate? Doc

What would be great fun would be to take one of these solar electric fencers, hide it somewhere up above the stand and run wire down to the stand. To make the set-up complete, you might want a trail cam set up somewhere nearby just to see the fun. Wouldn't be so great on a ladderstand, but sure would be fun with a metal strap-on treestand....... ;D Might look a bit like a the coyote on a roadrunner cartoon Doc

I don't actually shoot any arrows from my stand, but I do take periodic test draws just to make sure I can. I had one occasion years ago when on one cold morning, after three hours on stand, with muscles tensed against the freezing cold and driving wind, I was unable to draw my bow until after three attempts. That let-off doesn't do you any good until you get back at near full draw.....lol. Needless to say after three attempts at drawing, the deer spotted all this crazy motion going on and took off. One thing I have heard of guys doing is shooting the test arrows like you spoke of, but using some doe-in-heat style lure on the fletching and shooting the arrow in a location where they want the deer to stop for a shot. Kind of like "multi-tasking" ;D You can check out your shooting and lay out a deer stopper at the same time. Doc

I think if I had a pile of large ash trees, I would be cutting them down, and storing them in log form to air-dry somewhere on the property. Even if I had to build some sort of lean-to style shed. There will come a time when that wood will become somewhat rare and most likely valuable ....... right? Just a thought. Doc

That's what happens when we invest to much in our hunter-heroes. It seems to be a matter of time before they begin to feel larger than life and no longer feel a need to always be a positive force. No, I don't mean to make it sound like it happens in every instance, but it does happen often enough so that we always seem to have somebody screwing up and offering the sport a black eye. It's too bad, but it does seem to be some kind of basic law of human nature. The good news is that the average person doesn't pay a whole lot of attention to these guys regardless of what they do. Doc

Im not one necessarily for mandatory AR, but that statement is a crock of you know what. I know of one guy that has multiple 160+ deer on his wall, a few 180+ deer included and more 120+ sets of antlers from bucks hes shot than he knows what to do with. He even had one of the NY records for a couple of years until another guy near him dropped one that broke his record. He owns @ 20 acres and hunts a couple of other small parcels. Hes not rich, not even close. Hes not the only guy I know thats just your average Joe income-wise, that consistently drop big bucks. I don't think it's really any secret that you can basically buy trophy opportunities today. Also, landowners who can devote time and money to heavy-duty deer management on large parcels of property or large cooperatives of property can create opportunities that are not available to the rest of us. Sure there are always isolated situations where some very rare individuals can find some special circumstances or special talent and do well, but as a general rule, I would say that opportunities can be and are bought by those with enough money. Doc

That's not the way it seems to work in our area. We get the big push during the first few hours of opening day and then it starts sounding like there is no hunting season going. The actual pressure afterwards gets very light but the damage is done. There's not enough guys in the woods to kick up deer from their hide-and-go-seek positions, but just enough to reinforce that increased survival mode throughout the season. It doesn't seem to take a whole lot of hunters to keep the deer in a nocturnal state and using their best hiding tactics, and apparently the occasional sound of even far away gunfire takes on a whole new meaning to the deer and suppresses normal feeding and breeding activities until the after hours safety of darkness. I always figured that if the hunting pressure continued to fall each year that eventually we would have basic bowhunting conditions and patterns in gun season. Well, that has never happened and probably never will ...... lol. Doc

I know you said "in NY", but supper is almost ready so this is the best I could do. This page has a pretty extensive list of animal rights wacko organization and some info about what they are doing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animal_rights_groups Doc

I've already spoken my piece about how I feel about discussions on these forums. Aside from the one area that I mentioned, there is no real harm in discussing anything that we feel needs resolution or simply sounding out. However, don't mistake that thought as some misguided idea that the animal rights crowd does not need to be taken seriously. I'm detecting a notion here that we feel we can be as complacent as we want when it comes to those freaks. Well, anyone can think that if they want, but along with our constant attacks on our own hunting organizations, I also view complacency as being a great danger to hunting. We are the ones who are totally disorganized. We are the ones who are apathetic. We are the ones that have no core organizations which are well financed to play the game in the courts and in the public. We have no right to be complacent. We have seen a cougar hunt here, a dove hunt there and a bear hunt here and there made illegal through the courts and through referendums. Don't think for a minute that the highly organized and financed animal rights organizations have not had their effect, and are not capable of continuing to have those effects. Also, don't believe for a minute that we have some kind of entitlement as we see our numbers diminishing. Oh, and speaking of diminishing numbers, don't belittle the role that the constant drumbeat of animal rights has played in that as new standards of political correctness regarding hunting keep being pushed and are being accepted by the general population. So don't be lulled into some false sense of security and start thinking that these wack-jobs aren't having an effect. They most certainly are. That is why I keep yapping about the need for organization. Our opposition is highly organized and because of the resources that come with organization, are able to afford legal challenges and public relations campaigns, all of which are having crushing effects on hunting and participation in hunting (whether we choose to admit it or not). Yes I know this little side trip has little to do with the original topic, but some of the replies to this thread have indicated a complacency that I find just a bit chilling. No, I don't think there are a lot of the discussions found on this or any hunting forum that pose any kind of hazard to our hunting, but that is not to say that there aren't things going on in the world outside of forums that hunters shouldn't be finding very troublesome. Doc

Baseball bats and handles for axes, pick-axes, and other such tools.

That's an excellent picture for non-hunters to see as reminder of what Mother Nature's alternatives to hunting are. Not real pretty is it? There are some much more ugly ways to go than a bullet. This is just one of them. Doc

In the words of that great American, Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along" ..... Lol. Seriously, I have not seen anything on this forum or any other hunting forums that would really be of any use to the anti-hunting groups that they don't already have the ability to come up with themselves, with one huge exception. That exception being those posts that try to convince hunters not to be organized. Probably one of the things that make it extremely easy for animal-rights wackos to push legislation and force referendums, and create public messages designed to change minds of those voters that are on the fence about hunting, is the fact that they are highly organized and financed and we are pretty much totally disorganized and I have seen topics on these forums (more so on this site's predecessor) devoted to convincing other hunters not to become organized. Whether we are for or against AR or crossbows, or high fences, food plots, baiting, or whatever, that is all insignificant and of little notice or use to anti-hunting groups. However, if you can successfully turn back membership to hunting organizations, you are doing their work for them. The biggest thing that animal rights groups fear the most is sportsmen who have banded together for political clout and solidarity. It's a death knell to them. I often wonder just what our firearms picture would look like today in the U.S. if it were not for the NRA. And yet I recall a debate on this forum's forerunner that had more hunters and gun owners than I would ever have expected criticizing the NRA and hawking all the reasons why people should not belong. That's the sort of thing that can do direct harm to hunting and gun ownership, not whether we argue about relatively minor subjects like crossbows and AR and such. Actually discussions of those kinds of things are useful as we sort out the nature of the sport for ourselves and among ourselves. Doc

She admits that she has her own individual fears about the added range, but also claims to have found support for her opposition among residents of her township. Also, according to the vote, she is not alone in the southern Ontario township supervisors, In fact I believe it was unanimous opposition among all the supervisors in the affected area. I must admit that I have mixed feelings also on the issue. I have two opinions. One as a hunter, and another as a landowner whose house sits at the end of a 200 Yard state field with a not very substantial hedgerow between us.....lol. I sure would love to ditch that shoulder masher 12 guage and pick up something like a .243 that I could target practice with all day and then go deer hunting with, enjoying the added pin-point accuracy. But I keep looking over at that hedgerow, remembering how many times over the past decades that I have watched deer sneaking off the hill headed toward the thickets at the bottom that have used that hedge as their route. So either way, I will wind up disappointed. However, I won't have anyone to be mad at because I understand both positions. Doc

We've been losing ash trees for quite a few years. It's very unusual to see one that is 10" in diameter. They still seem to propagate and grow for a number of years, but then just die. It has not been this borer that has killed them either because there are none of those trails under the bark or the "D" shaped holes. Doc

Yeah, you're right. You can put any spin on it you want. But I guess the numbers cannot be spun. They simply indicate less opportunity for PA hunters. Not just among does, but also buck harvests as well. Frankly, I believe most hunters are out there to get a deer. I could be wrong but I always thought that was kind of the object of deer hunting. That may be an inconvenient fact, but are we really trying to frustrate hunters out of the sport? When buck harvests have moved back 23 years and perhaps even more, That's quite a dramatic contraction. Certainly nothing to be ignored by other states that are discussing following the same route. I have to wonder, with all these bucks not being harvested because of AR, where are all the bucks going? If they're not all growing up and eventually getting harvested, where exactly are they going? Something sure is not turning out as advertised. Doc

Interesting development in the southern Ontario County Rifle bill. I have unofficially heard that the Canadice Town Supervisor sent a letter to Governor Paterson about the county vote that indicated approval. She explained to him that while the proposal was officially passed, the actual vote was against passing the measure. The actual vote of individual supervisors was 12 to 9 against passing the proposal. So how did it get registered as an approved proposal? It turns out that Ontario County has a "weighted" vote that gives some townships a vote that counts more than others. That's based on population and is supposed to make the vote more fair in that it is based on the actual number of people that are in each township. Now here's the problem ...... The people voting against the measure were from the townships south of rts 5 & 20 which is the area that the law would pertain to, while the bigger townships to the north which would not be effected were the ones that voted for it. So it turns out that the larger towns who are not affected were able to force a law regarding local safety on the smaller towns that are actually affected. Well, this is where the plot thickens .... lol. The Canadice Town Supervisor sent a letter to the Governor laying this whole scenario out. Will it change anything? ..... Don't know. Only time will tell, but the rifle bill is not a done-deal in Ontario County. So I'm still not running right out just yet and buying a shiny new deer rifle. This bill is turning into a real comedy with more twists and turns that any work of fiction could ever conjure up. Doc

Interesting development in the southern Ontario County Rifle bill. I have unofficially heard that the Canadice Town Supervisor sent a letter to Governor Paterson about the county vote that indicated approval. She explained to him that while the proposal was officially passed, the actual vote was against passing the measure. The actual vote of individual supervisors was 12 to 9 against passing the proposal. So how did it get registered as an approved proposal? It turns out that Ontario County has a "weighted" that gives some townships a vote that counts more than others. That's based on population and is supposed to make the vote more fair in that it is based on the actual number of people that are in each township. Now here's the problem ...... The people voting against the measure were from the townships south of rts 5 & 20 which is the area that the law would pertain to, while the bigger townships to the north which would not be effected were the ones that voted for it. So it turns out that the larger towns who are not affected were able to force a law regarding local safety on the smaller towns that are actually affected. Well, this is where the plot thickens .... lol. The Canadice Town Supervisor sent a letter to the Governor laying this whole scenario out. Will it change anything? ..... Don't know. Only time will tell, but the rifle bill is not a done-deal in Ontario County. So I'm still not running right out just yet and buying a shiny new deer rifle. Doc

Check this quote out: "The 308,920 deer bagged reflected an 8 percent decline from the previous year. The buck kill — 108,330 — was the lowest recorded since the agency began its present system of estimating harvests in 1986." I have heard loud howls coming out of the Keystone State about miserable doe scarcity, but now they have severe declines in buck harvests too? I have to wonder just what is so wonderful about a system that produces these results. Is this the shining example of AR? It sounds ok if you want to kill hunting. Doc