Doc

I don't have any problems with field tips, but finding something that I can shoot broadheads into is quite a trick. There are some cheapo styrofoam targets that Walmart sells and generally I wind up buying a new one every year. But no matter what I have tried, broadheads will chop chunks out in no time at all. For field tip, I have had two butts (one inside and one outside) that have lasted for years. They are both about 3' high x 3' wide x 2' thick. They are made out of compressed corrugated cardboard. I got the idea from a professional indoor shooting range in Rochester years ago. I shoot the arrows into the corrugations and they will stop anything. I devised a clamping mechanism that screws pressure on the cardboard. Also, when things start getting shot out, I simply turn the whole thing around and shoot the other side. When that starts getting shot out, the sheets of cardbord can be moved around swapping unshot sheets for the shot out ones and then we start all over again. The beauty of it all is the ease with which I can pul the arrows out without a effort or arrow damage. It was some time in the late 80's when I first built them and finally they are getting to the point where I really need to find some more cardboard. Doc

I wonder how that number compares to back when I was a kid. It seems like almost every farm-kid had a trapline back then. We use to have choices of 5 or 6 fur buyers closeby then. Not anymore. I hope it's growing again. It's an activity that puts us as close to nature and it's critters as anything I can think of. If that was lost, it would be a big chunk of our heritage and culture gone and would be a real shame. Doc

The question of AR will be debated for years and never have a unanimous opinion. Personally I don't really buy into the idea, but for me it is not an issue of very high priority when compared to a whole lot of other more basic deer management problems that NY has. It's just not a huge issue that I can get all excited about. We don't even have a clue as to the real number of deer we have or the local deer densities. We have deer populations that seem to swing wildly from too few to too many on fairly regular cycles. It seems a bit premature to be worrying about how big the antlers are.....lol. But it does provide some interesting discussions. Doc

Something that I have not heard a whole lot of people address is the question of even though deer may not see blaze orange as the same color that we do, does the blaze orange still stand out as something weird in the woods to them? What I have noticed is that the blaze orange hunting clothing has almost a reflective quality. The effect is really noticeable in the fading light where there are times that blaze orange seems to have a much higher intensity than anything around it. So you have to wonder just what that bright flash of intensity really looks like to deer. I have seen reactions from deer that range from non-recognition to having them zero right in on me so, I don't know. None of this changes my requirement for wearing blaze orange, but I sure would like to know the real details on how deer react and interpret blaze orange. Doc

Hey ..... another familiar old name. Welcome aboard. Glad to see that you found us. Doc

That's why I was curious as to how they intend to handle that issue. I mean, for this year the season is only a few months away, and I would guess that nobody has even thought of the logistics of hunter safety training. Doc

Yes, I don't think that it has been any secret that I have no love for the idea of crossbows in bow season or any other weapon that doesn't belong. And if you don't happen to like my opinion, that's your problem. I have just as much right to represent the other side of the argument as you do whether you like it or not. Doc

So, are you saying that you expect the city areas that you hunt to be now open to crossbows during bow season? By the way, I heard that crossbow safety training will now be entered into the hunter safety courses as part of the requirement for hunting with crossbows. Do you suppose that stuff will be grandfathered in for existing licensed hunters or will there be a requirement to take additional training before you can use a crossbow for hunting? Has anybody heard how they are going to handle that part of it all? Any theories??? Doc

My wife and I don't really need anymore than 1 deer a year, so I have neighboring people that I generally try to get a deer for. Actually, I've been doing that for quite a few years now. They need the help so excess venison goes to them. However for those that don't have any local people that need that kind of help, the venison donation program is a great thing. Doc

I think you are probably right. As I understand it, they are currently not allowed in the primary bow season. If it stays that way, there won't be much of an impact. As far as them being something that catches on, I think that without the linkage to the early bow season, there is not much about them that is very attractive for hunters. The only real appeal would be for gun hunters who would like an earlier crack at the deer herd without the rigors of becoming proficient with a bow. That is the only real appeal that I can see that they would have for anybody. Doc you might have forgotten a few groups there Doc, the appeal would also be for people who like to shoot crossbows, (yea some of them might be rifle hunters god forbid), and older hunters who can no longer effectively use a vertical bow. and using the argument about having to sustain the rigors of hunting with a compound bow are pretty weak, if you arent well practiced with crossbows you will about as effective as a vertical bow hunter who also hasnt practiced. Yeah, I know ...... That's a good one ..... lol.

Well, this is the second time that you promised to end your crazy ranting and then back-peddaling. I hope this time you finally really mean what you are saying. Doc

Haha! I was thinking the same thing. The guy in the vid got good at gutting fast because he was used to getting out quick before the law arrived!! But seriously, why the rush? I like to take my time to try and do a good job. Not to mention enjoy the warmth on my cold hands! No hurry here. The first thing I do is to stand there for a few minutes thinking, " Oh damn, now look what I have gone and done". Eventually, I talk myself into diving into the disgusting muck and mire. It's not something that I can say that I have ever really WANTED to do......ha-ha. Doc

Hey....Good to hear from you again. Glad you made it across to the new forum. You realize that you are speaking heresy, and will now probably be descended upon by the flames of the AR people both here and in the readership of New York Outdoor News? That's alright. It's always nice to catch both sides of all the different issues, and I enjoy a bit of controversy every now and then....lol. Yeah, after posting that comment, I kind of figured it out that there likely was an article size limit. That's too bad. You took on a huge topic that could extend into volumes of info. I don't suppose that the research articles are published on the net somewhere. I would be interested in reading a little more detail on those studies. You don't very often get to read anything on that side of the issue. Doc

They probably would say that they are available for NYS hunters who hunt out of state where such products are legal. Doc

Yes, I fully expect that too, and that is why I put the word "currently" in italics on my other reply. I have the same opinion that this is the foot-in-the-door law. I suspect that is why the NYB has always taken such a "no compromise" position on the issue. So many times innocent little moves wind up setting precedents that are used to go way beyond anything that anyone expected or intended. That's the same as the philosophy of the NRA. So many times I wonder, now what harm could that law do. But they have always understood that principle of "give an inch and they want a mile", and the idea of precedents and how they can be twisted to serve purposes other than what is obvious. Doc

I think you are probably right. As I understand it, they are currently not allowed in the primary bow season. If it stays that way, there won't be much of an impact. As far as them being something that catches on, I think that without the linkage to the early bow season, there is not much about them that is very attractive for hunters. The only real appeal would be for gun hunters who would like an earlier crack at the deer herd without the rigors of becoming proficient with a bow. That is the only real appeal that I can see that they would have for anybody. Doc

Larry- I am not a big fan of AR, but the question you had about whether or not we can tell taxpaying landowners how to hunt on their own land has been answered years ago when the 3" antler rule was established and the seasons, and all the other regulations. Should we be adding to those restrictions? ..... Well that's another issue. I don't believe we should unless there is one huge, important, well documented and scientifically proven reason that involves the health and perpetuation of the species. I'm not sure the AR crowd has met that standard yet. Your second point about how strong the convictions are of the QDM and AR proponents is a valid one ...... I think. I believe there is a huge difference between answering some kind of poll vs. the decisions we make out in the field when the deer steps out into the clear. I think also it is a lot easier to stand up for a concept as long as it is just a concept than it is when it is an actual law. Another thing is, just who is going to sit around with a bunch of other hunters and start preaching for killing 1.5 year old deer? So there may be a lot of hunters who are just saying what they believe their peers want to hear. So if the harvests don't reflect what we hear from hunters, I guess I'm not surprised. It kind of makes sense. Doc

Oak Duke (author of that article used to be a fairly regular poster on the old Empire Hunting site. I always enjoyed his comments even if I didn't agree with them all the time (surprise....surprise....lol). I don't know whether he has joined us yet or not. He used to go under the user name of Buckstopshere. Doc

OK guys ...... Thanks for the info. Doc

I'm sorry, I actually believed that you meant at least a little of the rhetoric that you were spewing. Now I guess you are saying that you really don't have any valid thoughts or convictions as to whether an early muzzleloading season should be implemented in the southern zone. See I thought that all those references to the southern zone really meant that you had some sort of principled belief that muzzleloaders should be allowed in the bow seasons of the south. Little did I know that you were arguing just to argue and taking the opportunity to just arbitrarily blast the bowhunters at the same time. Also, I took your following quote as something you really believed in: "No one said that archery season has to be taken over, just shared." How was I to know that you only think that idea applies in the north? lol..... or maybe you don't even believe in it there, who knows anymore? When you said that the archery season has to be shared, I thought you really meant it and I thought you meant it should apply statewide. Sorry ...... my mistake. I guess I have learned not to take your statements too seriously anymore because apparently there's not a whole lot of conviction behind them. Doc

No kidding ....... that's great. I tanned a fox hide when I was about 12 years old, and it turned out pretty darned good too. It was probably a lot more crude than your job, but it didn't come out too bad. I believe I used Oxalic acid for the tanning solution. i got the recipe from one of those books that are advertised in Fur-Fish-Game magazine. I'll likely try it again some day. Other than that one fox hide, we used to sell the raw stretched and dried hides to fur dealers. It seems that back then there was always dealers everywhere. Now I'm not sure just where I would go to sell hides. Over in Honeoye they have a trapper's association (Genesee Valley Trapper's Association?) that has periodic fur auctions. That's probably where a guy has to go now. Doc

Yes in areas that are shotgun only, I can see where a nice scoped in-line would be far superior to any shotgun in terms of range and accuracy. That makes a lot of sense. Every year, the bullets and powders and muzzleloaders get to be better and better. Where I am, it looks like we should be going to centerfire rifles this year If Paterson gets the bill signed in time), so I guess I will be skipping the whole muzzleloading thing entirely. But I was just curious what the attraction was for people. I would imagine for those that like the more primitive versions, there may be a certain amount of historical appeal and linkage. I can dig that too. Doc

I saw another video on the 2-bladed version of these things. Those definitely would be illegal in NY since even in the collapsed position they form a barbed head. But man, what a nasty cut. When deployed these things form a cutting width that is greater than 2". They showed a couple of few boars where they used them and the damage was very convincing. They seemed to have no problem getting entrance and exit wounds. The 2-blade version uses the same principle and the same kind of mechanism to deploy the blades as the 3 blade. I guess I am convinced that the principle works as long as you have enough bow poundage to shove all that stuff through an animal. Doc

Lol, I suppose that's one way to make sure they stop......just eat 'em! That'll put an end to that nonsense. Doc