A Sportsman

Thanks guys, I think I will first do a little more shooting at various ranges and get a feel for how my shots are grouping. If not good, I'll consider a nock adjustment and probably have it done by the shop. If anyone else out there shoots mechanical heads that don;t group with thier field points, let me know. In my mind, having to move my sight for a mechanical head sort of defeats the purpose/point of the mechanical head.

Yeah the weights are the same. 100 gr. Could the length of the broadhead affect things? Since the broadhead sticks out an inch-plus past where the field point would? Maybe this normally wouldn;t affect things, but say your arrows are at the cusp of a particular zone on the draw length/bow poundage chart. When I get a chance, I will take a few shots with my rage practice heads. If they don't fly like the field points, I suppose that will give me an indication that something is up with the bow. I don't know if anyone else has had this problem, but last year I noticed that a few of my rage practice heads wouldnt fly so straight after shooting them alot, getting foam wedged in the crevices and banging them up a bit on the ground. Man, I wish my bow set up was as stable as my .308 set up...

Hey guys, I've been doing some shooting in prep for the coming season. Up until yesterday, I've been just shooting field points at ranges out to 30 yds and have been doing ok. Yesterday I put a NAP Spitfire expandable broadhead on the end of an arrow and took a few shots with it. My buddy had given me a handful of them and I was considering using them this season so long as they would fly well. As it turns out, my shots were hitting about 3 inches high at 20 yards. In my opinion, this is a lot to be off target, especially for a mechanical head. Rather than start moving my sight pins, I am more apt to think maybe the bow needs a tuning adjustment. What is the general consensus on this? Do any of you guys who shoot mechanicals, still have to adjust your sight when making the switch from Field points to Broadheads? One other question: Over the past few seasons, I used the rage 2 blade Broadheads. With that one, when I made the switch from field points to broadheads I noticed that my arrows seemed to hit in the same spot out to 20 yds. However, at distances past 20 yards it seemed that the rage head shot flatter than my field points. For instance, at 25 yards i would have to hold about 2 inches high with my field points. But the rage head would still be shooting flat at that distance. Have any of you seen this? Am I crazy? Am I mistaking shooting flat for planing? Thanks for any info you can give me. Tuning my bow is the one aspect of bowhunting that I don;'t do myself so I think I naturally have suspicions, espeically when a mechanical head doesnt fly exactly like a field point...

I have been using the rage 2 blade for the past 3 seasons. I killed 3 deer with them, and on those deer they were "as advertised". Big wound channel, good blood, etc. However, I also lost 1 deer with them because they didn't open. I've seen guys claim the same thing either here or on other sites, and what followed was a whole argument on how that "couldn't be". In my case I know it happened. My shot was 5 yards, it was a pass through, had at least one lung good and probably the back part of the other. Since i was hunting on pine needles and sand, any little blood that I had was impossible to see. I've seen what the rage does when it opens. Had it opened I would have had great blood and would have found that deer quickly. Anyway, this year I am considering trying the shwacker or the grim reaper. The reviews on cabelas website are very very good for the grim reaper, so I am leaning that way. I would like to shoot a fixed head. In my mind, they are the best option. But I just havent gotten around to figuring out the whole tuning thing. I'm not a really "techy" person and messing with bow is a little intimidating to me. So far, I've relied upon the tech at my bow shop. But unfortunatley, my they hasnt been exactly receptive to spending the time with me to get my bow to shoot a fixed head straight. At some point....

A guy who I used to hunt with used to camp out with his old crew up near the top (about 3000 ft) of one of the mountains we hunt in the catskills. One of the ways they were able to make it happen from year to years is that they would leave certain items hidden under a tarp up on the mountain all year long. (I'm certain this is not legal, but back when they were doing this, it was a freer country). From the way he explained it to me, his crew would spend an entire first day or two just lugging their gear up there. My cousin and i talk about tent camping deep in the woods every year, but it never comes to fruition. It sure would be a heck of a lot of effort. Plus, as much as I don;t mind roughing it, after being in the woods from dark til dark, its nice to come into a dry, warm cabin, eat like a king, take a hot shower and relax.

I grew up taking camping trips (tent/small trailer) with my family at various state and private campgrounds across the state. I have nothing but great memories of the quality time spend with my parents and brother. We got to see quite a bit of what the state has to offer, with the cheap cost a bonus. Just recently my wife and I took our first camping trip with our baby girl who is 20 months old. We did a full week in the tent up in the catskills (mongaup Pond). I won't say it was a mistake, however, with the baby, it was just too much work, for too many days. It really never felt much like a vacation. When we got home, we still agreed that family camping is great, but think we should wait a few years for our current kid, and our next one, to be at least 4 years old or so. It was our first time to Mongaup Pond, and while we thought the place was ok, I think there are much better options in NYS. Fishing wasnt too good, hiking wasn't anything special, no playground for the baby, felt like forest rangers were literally spying on us the whole time, etc.

Also a lot of times where you find good deer sign, there isnt a tree anyway near there to hang a stand. Hunting from the ground is feasible, but now your already bad visibility becomes worse. I also worry about hitting a deer and having it vanish within two seconds. Its nicer when after you hit one, you can watch it for a while to give you a good feel for where to look for blood. I am colorblind and have a tough time looking for blood. So i am a little paranoid of that situation (not having a good idea of where to look for blood).

Meat First, I hear ya man. These chiggers the past number of seasons have been horrible. You can pull your socks over your pants to prevent Ticks. But the chiggers go right through the socks and they get you like 100 at a time. I don;t hunt Sarnoff, but I hunt nearby there in some very similar habitat. The deer could litteraly bed down anywhere. Plus they are walking on a lot of sand so often times you don't hear them coming at all. I generally just try to find good numbers of tracks and sign, try to figure out their daily movements direction-wise, and set up near it. Can be frustrating though. They can pass by 40 yards from you and you won't see or hear them.

Thats not a nock on non-serious hunters. There's nothing wrong with someone hunting as much or little as they want. What I meant was that AR guys may think that the guys who hunt 2 days per year are the guys who don't want ARs. Like because they only hunt so little, they want to be able to shoot a small buck.

I gotta agree with you Culvercreek. I don't think it is coicindental that ARs have come about in conjuntion with the other various changes we have seen in todays hunter. Also, I think their has been a tendency for the pro-AR guys to assume that those not-in-favor tend to be the non-serious types of hunters. Like the guys who come up to the catskills to hunt opening weekend of rifle, and then go home. I think people would be surprised that a good portion of the not-in-favor crew are avid hunters of the old school, don't tread on me camp. And not necessarily guys who claim "racks don;t matter" and "you can;t eat horns". The only thing that hangs me up a bit is that even 6 pointers and small 8s often can be "immature" deer that aren;t that tough to hunt. So if the stats actually show that the large majority of deer being shot are 4ptrs or less, then its clear that those areas have some issues. What is problematic, is that there may be an area 3 miles away, within the same WMU, that has a normal amount of big bucks on it. Not easy stuff I guess.

Culvercreek, I largely agree. And thats what I been trying to say. However, since I don;t hunt in any of these WMUs, except 3A, I have trouble making blanket statements about them. I'm cautiously trying to give the guys who actually hunt there, and want AR, the benefit of the doubt. I think a lot of the hunters in some of these WMUs hunt relatively small peices of private property (under 100 acres), so if you go 100 yds past camp, you are essentially into someone elses camp. either way, if it was a fact that 80 or 90 percent of the deer that were being shot were no better than a 4 pointer, than I can see how people would blame the herd, rather than their hunting ablility. Some have said, "well, you could go somewhere else to hunt." But that doesnt appeal to many people either. There is tradition in hunting the same area for most people.

I definitely agree that it seems like more hunters are less willing to work as hard to get their deer. To me it seems like relying upon gadgetry has replaced the work end of it. For instance, 4 wheelers to get you and your deer in and out, and trail cameras let you know whats around without having to actually be there. I'm not saying i;m against hunters using those items, but in my mind, todays hunter is quite a bit different from my dad, uncles, etc. So I think todays hunter is more apt to embrace a "gadget" like ARs, in order to get their 8 ptr. Even though this sounds anti AR, if I hunted and area where there were so little decent bucks, I'd probably be for AR in that area. With respect to how I hunt, I hunt stateland in 3A without one ounce of "worry" about "who is shooting what". Some years, if the population is down cause of tough winter and the conditions stink (foggy all week long, or bad still hunting conditions), I have no problem shooting a spike, if I am good/lucky enough to see one. Other years, I've passed up 2 or 3 small bucks, holding off for a better one. Its my decision, and that freedom is worth something to me. Deep into the woods of this WMU, ARs simply don't matter. These days, there just isnt enough hunters, or enough good hunters (or both) to really dent the population of small bucks. I think the huge drop in hunter recruitment has naturally been witnessed most significantly in the toughest areas to hunt.

From my understanding of how the ARs were instituted, and I think NYAntler or someone correctly pointed this out about 12 pages ago, as the first group of WMUs were not selected through the politics of state government. it was a DEC decision to institute a pilot program. The second grouping of WMUs, including my area (3A), came about as a bill through the state legislature. And in my opinion, this is where things went wrong. No doe permits are ever given out in 3A. Hunting pressure is relatively light considering the huge amounts of state land. In short, 3A didn't need AR, and i suspect maybe some of these other new AR WMUs may also not need it. Regardless of the new rule and my distaste for it, I follow game rules and have to abide by it. My point is that the institution of ARs in 3A proves that this rule may start popping up in other areas across the state where it is likely unnecessary, to the dismay of many of the hunters there. That said, I think areas with very high deer densities won;t see it. Reason being is whatever position the local hunters may have in those areas, the DEC is still charged with controlling the herd for other reasons, such as vehicular accidents, and crop damage. I suppose the DEC could do this by simply allowing more does to be killed. But doe permits are already plentiful in these areas. I'm not sure that printing more doe permits would result in more dead deer in those areas, when coupled with the AR rule.

I agree with Doc's comment on how we can't have a one-size fits all approach to the deer hunting regs. Especially with AR. Its great to see that some areas where there were very few nice deer walking around, now have better hunting. That said, to me its not something that is necessary statewide. Along that same line of thinking, I don't think the one buck rule is good at all. Different areas of the state have different management needs. Restricting all hunters to one buck woudl benefit some areas and hurt others. Also, if the deer herd can support hunters taking more than 1 buck in a given area, then why not allow hunters to do what they love?

Man, when is enough enough with this topic. I don't even know why I still check it. I must enjoy getting aggravated. haha We get it. More guys like AR than don't. fine! But there is no right an wrong here. Its all opinion. Look at it this way, more teenage girls like justin bieber's music than those that don't. Doesn't mean that the music is any good, does it? Those willing to put in the work to find a nice buck already have the opportunity to do so in some of these new AR areas. I know this. And if it doesn't happen for them, thats hunting. We accept it and come back willing to do battle next time. We don;t whine that joe shmo down the road shot a spike last week and now that deer will never grow old.

As mentioned above, the way I see it, there are multiple reasons. Like Growalot said, a lot of it falls on our backs as hunters and parents. However, previous generations were not up against what we are. For instance, I don't think we even know yet the long term ramifications of the internet. I'm 35, and I grew up on Long island. In my schools, hunting and fishing may as well not have existed. I'm not saying schools should necessarily devote time to these things, but as hunters, it would be foolish to think that the idea of hunting would be cultivated there. And its too bad. As a youngster, all I wanted to do was be outdoors with my dad. My dad was a hunter, which meant I wanted to be a hunter too. Simple as that. Its very upsetting to think about how this simple equation or parent/kid relationship is breaking down. I've never thought access was much of a problem, because there is a lot of state land in NYS, but as NFA-ADK pointed out, access points are pretty limited. I hunt the central catskills. IN my experience, our problems lie more in getting deer out. Its one thing to huff it to deep area, but problems arise when you have to drag very long distances to skirt posted signs, instead of just getting the deer out to a road. Regardless, I don't think access is really a primary reason for poor recruitment.

I agree Steve863. We know that there are a lot of bad eggs out there, in any sport, but to think that some ridiculously high percentage of hunters would be commiting such an egregious offense seems off-base, at the very least. I noticed some guys speaking in support of one buck rule. First of all, once again, NYS is too varied for this type of one-size fits all approach. Second of all, we have dwindling hunter recruitment, as a result less hunters have had to kill more deer to maintain herds in many places. One buck tag would be awful. At the very least, you gotta allow one buck with bow and one with gun. ON Long Island, our bow season is Oct 1 to Dec 31. and gun is in January. And we would get 1 buck tag. NO WAY.

To me, without taking into account the specific area, its deer population, and how heavily hunted it is, discussing ARs is moot. The guys who think it should be done everywhere, without regard for these things, are silly. If a guy hunts an area where there are very few other hunters, and therefore, very few bucks killed each year, AR is pointless. killing a spike or a 4 pt here or there is not going to make or break the age structure of the bucks in the woods, nor the quality of your hunting experience. If it does, you are clearly not in the proper frame of mind. On the flip side, those guys that say they could care less about shooting a monster, and are just in it for the meat......we;ll thats pretty insane too. your telling me that as a hunter, you don;t get charged seeing/shooting a beauty buck? gimme a break. Somewhere theres some common sense in the middle ground. I currently hunt Long Island and 3A and simply do not see the need for AR in those areas. I used to hunt 6A, while i was in college. In the 4 years I hunted there, neither me or my two buddies shot a buck with more than 4 points. I don't even think we saw more than 2. I guess I would have supported it for that area. Though poaching may have been the real problem up there. I dont know. Growalot, I liked your point how nice bucks seem to be shot at many areas of the state each year. Obviously, some areas are more challenging than others, but all things considered, most areas of NY have some big bucks, thank god. One last comment, some people say "they are all trophies". I think people who hunt areas where there are and always have been plenty of deer may not truly understand the phrase. I've had years in the catskills where the deer population is way down and/or we get lousy weather for the majority of my 8-10 day hunt. If, in the course of busting my butt up and down mtns all week long, a spike is my only shot opportunity and I take that deer. That deer is earned, and valued beyond deer with much bigger racks. That is truly my trophy and it sux that "the government" would take that deer and the experience away from me.

MIke103, While I can't say I agree with everything you say there (I use a climber, and doe P often enough), I know exactly what you mean. And I agree that ARs seem to have been at least partially borne out of the whole "TV hunting" mentality (lease, tractor, food plot, 4 wheeler, game camera, etc.). While none of this stuff singularly ruins hunting, I think that it all sort of takes away from the real meaning behind being in the woods and the appreciation that comes from hunting hard, and eventually being rewarded with a real deer. Not a TV deer that was passed on every year of its life until it was a giant, dumb 27 point "shooter". Good luck!

Fletch, Great point about how hunters go through stages as they grow with the sport. It has relevance here that should not be overlooked when discussing ARs. IN my experience, most hunters go through those stages regardless of the age they start out. You can be 12 years old at stage 1 or 42. With respect to how the AR's actually came about in NYS, As Steve mentioned, it is true that they were the prodcut of NYS legislative action. In other words, hunters and sportsman's groups petitioned state lawmakers (read: Polititicians) to make it happen. THere is no disputing this. The DEC was not the impetus. Said politicians rely on votes and can be persuaded and assuaged, sometimes by small yet very loud groups. DEC staffs do not. And don;t nock J. Hurst. The DEC works hard, for little wages, and a dwindling budget to try to provide the most for NY outdoorsmen. The state is large and varied. How easy do you think it is to keep most people happy? The fact is, you can shoot a big buck in most areas of our state. It aint easy. But nothin easy is worth doin. I know its been said before, but if the majority of the hunters in all of these WMUs support ARs, then why is it that its alway "the neighbor" shooting every 4 pointer and spike in the whole area. It serves logic that, in most cases, "the neighbor" should be pro-AR and passing up the smaller bucks. Think about it. I'm not saying it doesnt happen, but it just seems a little "off". Lastly, it may sound that I am against AR, but really I am not for or against it. I don't hunt any of the region 3 WMUs except 3A. If it is true that these other areas do not have any bucks living past 1.5, then I can understand why many guys want AR. Heck who doesnt want to see/shoot a nice buck once in a while? But the fact that they institued the AR in 3A is proof that those who argued for it there knew not what they were talking about, and hence the political ties to how it happened. Realistically, how many guys really walk deep into the mountains to hunt. VERY FEW. I know because me and my group are there hunting about 10 days/year on several different mountains. This is the country that 3A mostly is. We cerntainly don;t see many deer, but we also don't have the problem of only seeing spikes and forks. Of the past 15 deer that my 6-person hunting party has killed there, only 2 would have not been shootable (granted most of them weren't monsters) . And we do not pass up many. We shot these deer over the past 10 years and maybe passed up 4 or 5 small bucks over that time. Bottom line, AR is not required here and it makes me cast doubt over other areas where its being tried. One other thing....while i can appreciate the value in having an age-balanced buck herd on the health of the deer and habitat, etc., i think its a little delusional to think that AR came about in NY for any other reason than because guys wanted to shoot larger racked deer. If a balanced herd is a byproduct, great. But it has nothing to do with why its being tried here.

Virgil, I took that to mean that you could legally hunt deer with a shotgun/Mzldr on private property, during the january season, so long as the town/village your hunting in allows hunting. I could be wrong though...

I hear you Growalot. my best buck to date is a high and tight 10-point, with real good mass. With such a rule, given a fleeting shot opportunity, I would have had to pass on him. Speaking to someone's point above, isn't AR most often utilized in conjunction with doe permits? Some of these WMUs, like 3A, never have Doe permits. This compounds my frustration with it. Don't get me wrong though, based on the current "lowish" deer population statistics, it doesn't seem like doe permits should be issued to hunters over there.

Who is excited? People who hunt property where the majority of the bucks get shot before they have nice racks. Who is not excited? People who hunt property that is not characterized by this problem, who now feel like they have had some of their freedom taken away for no reason. (me) As I've detailed in the past, most of 3A is gigantic mountainous state land that does not have the issues that other WMUs may have. Its inclusion on this list is ridiculous. Whats next? AR for the Adirondacks? Its great that some of you are excited for your specific areas. But you should also understand how other people who hunt completely different areas, do not feel the same way.

I had Target Panic pretty bad about two years ago. Like someone above mentioned, its like I would hit a wall as I was raising my pin up to the target. At times, my finger would just shoot as I was hitting that wall. As the arrow released, I knew I was aiming low. The way I fixed it was that I changed my usual routine in that instead of pulling up on a target, I drew above the target and came down on the bullseye. I wasn't super comfortable shooting that way, but it seemed to fix the target panic. Before long I was able to go back to my old preferred way of pulling up on the target with no issues.

With a bow especially, the higher you go, the tougher the shot you will have due to the angle. In addition, usually the higher you go, the more difficult it will be to clear lanes. I understand that getting up higher helps prevent deer from seeing you, but at what price? I hunt as high as the situation will let me, up to a max of about 16 or 17 feet. I don;t hun't out of stands with the rifle. But if I did, I'm sure I would venture to go a little higher if a particular situation allowed for it.