A Sportsman

I hunt a remote Forever Wild section of the catskills and can sympathize with you guys in the Adirondacks. If its pretty lousy where I am, its gotta be a lot worse up there. I'm all for some selective logging to help out the food situation. But, I do like the "no motorized vehicle rule" that accompanies the Forever Wild land designation. It keeps some people away. And I think its just cool to have to walk to the areas you want to hunt and to have to drag deer out by hand. If they were able to log it, withough changing other issues with the current status, that would be ideal to me.

Posted Boys Gallego, Great post. Thats exactly right.

It is comforting to see that most of the people chiming in on this post agree that the video is awful, and aren't too fond, if at all, of the "high fence" thing and all the nonsense we see on TV. When I read what 4-Seasons Whitetail writes, all kinds of thoughts and emotions come to my mind. I could write 100 pages on it. But I'll just try and keep this short. 4 Seasons keeps using the phrase "To each his own". There's the first issue. What is that? To me, it means that everyone's actions are ok if it "works for them" and doesnt harm me directly. This type of "soft" thinking is partially what has degraded the ethics of not only hunting, but our country in general. As responsible people, where are we supposed to draw the line between right and wrong? We need to be able to not only judge peoples actions but also render our opinions. Period. The phrase "to each his own" should not be confused with "don;t tread on me". Maybe 4 Seasons and those who share his opinion are confusing the too. I can understand how killing animals in a high fenced area may not be "wrong" per se. BUT, it is not hunting. so in my mind, I can't understand why it would scratch the itch of someone who calls himself a hunter. One could raise the question, where do you draw the line? high fence?, baiting?, planting crops for deer?, Using a treestand? I honestly don;t know. Sadly, I think part of what 4 Seasons says about QDM, and high fences and tinkering with genetics is true. More people are embracing it. And to those of us who learned to hunt the hard way and had to truly earn what we killed, its very bothersome. It flies directly in the face of our hunting tradition. After its all said and done, and someone shoots a 97 pointer over bait, in a high fence area, with guys pushing the deer around, that hunter then places the shoulder mount in his home, so he can be reminded each and every day of what a joke of a man he is.

Good point Steve. Maybe gamey is not the appropriate term. but since that "venisony" taste is controlled by other factors, such as how the meat is handled from the kill, to the gut job, to butchering, to the outdoor temperature, and maybe most importantly, how its prepared, I don't like to think of it as THE taste of venison. To me, when I taste too much of that "flavor" in the meat, its not so good.

By the way, I would love to know how that chef you know cooked those ribs. Until I just read your post, I was convinced they sucked as well. Its gotta have something to do with neutralizing the waxiness of the fat....

I hear you NYAntler. There is no question that the abitlity of the chef has sooooo much to do with how the venison tastes. But, if the same person is cooking the venison, the "who is cooking the meat?" argument is moot. The fact remains that some meat is simply better than other meat (just like at the supermarket). And in several of our opinions, the fawns are better. Taken a step further, if a great venison cook is given a super gamey 7 year old rutting buck to cook. He may be able to dampen/disquise the gamey taste enough to where the meal is good. But that doesn;t mean the quality of the meat was on par with a fawn. It just means the chef is superb. I've heard guys say that they don;t mind the gamey taste, and actually like it to a certain degree. I don;'t like it though I;ll tolerate it when I shoot a gamey deer and/or screw up a meal here or there. When i say I like fawn meat, one could read that simply as I don;t like gamey venison. For the guys that like the gaminess in the meat, I guess this thread is strictly about the tenderness of the meat. Either that or they're just puzzled by the whole thread.

This is a cool topic. I've shot several catskill mountain deer and several Long Island deer. In general, I think the Long Island deer taste better. (My LI deer are fed mostly on acorns.) BUT, once you factor in the deer itself, things change. For instance, I'd take a catskill doe over a rutting LI buck. It is without question that some deer really do taste better than others. I never had an "agro" deer, but I bet they are real good. how could they not be. Like someone said above, fawns are great. I only shot two in my time. But they were the best.

I hunt LI with the bow. I hunt at least a day or two per week from Oct 1 up til the start of gun season in mid November. Then usually a couple of days in December. Long story short, as far as seeing deer it was the worst season for me in about 10 years. In total, I passed on 5 small bucks. And saw maybe 3 or 4 others that were out of range. couple were half way decent basket racks. Believe it or not, I only had one potential shot at a doe, early in season and it was getting dark so I passed it up. I'm an idiot for not shooting one for meat right-off. Because as season went on, things got tougher and I wound up with nothing. I think one of my spots was getting pounded with guys. I also think I should have spread my effort around a little bit more instead of staying with the same three peices of woods. Frustrating because I would like to think that as I get older, I get wiser and hunt better. This year was a little sobering. Will have to tweak my strategies a bit for next year...welcome the challenge. In a week in 3A we did alright. we shot two bucks and a bear between 6 of us. I got the bear. Not a lot of deer sightings, but there never is where I hunt over there.

Hey Mike, In my experience, your lack of sign is common for the area. I usually spend the first few days of a weeklong hunt just covering ground, looking for good enough sign that is worth hunting. In some cases, with snow on the ground, I'll cover a mile of a mountainside without cutting a track. Usually, after a few days though I;ll find a few spots that "stand-out" as having the best sign and then I'll focus on them. A lot of times, the same spots seem to be hot from one year to the next. But sometimes they can be ice-cold. Prior to using this stragety, I used to still hunt really slowly over giant peices of land, without barely seeing any good sign. It was a waste of time. Also, with this area in particular, there are many days where you can really hunt well and just see nothing. Its tough hunting. When I started out as a youngster hunting up there I was really down on it. It was frustrating not seeing many deer. But over the years, I fell in love with the area and started seeing more deer in the process.

Sorry Bkln, I was thinking about this on the train ride home today and i thought it was worth saying one more thing.... I've been hunting unposted private property in long island for the past 20 years (since I;m 15). In that time, I;ve hunted a minimum of god knows how many spots. 50? 75? And In that time, i was only twice was I asked to leave a spot. If those numbers do not show how acceptable it is to hunt unposted property on LI, I don;t know what is. I'll also add that in one instance where I got kicked off, it was by an avid hunter who claimed to be the caretaker of the property. So I can't even say for sure that he had any right to kick me out. In all likelihood he was just an idiot who strong armed me off his spot. After a screaming match, he threatened to damage my car if he ever saw it again. I left because A. there was two of them and one of me. and B. hunting is not fun when your at that point. Over those years, I lost a number of spots that were either built upon or became posted and It sucked but I dealt with it. As I mentioned above, hunting unposted land is not the right thing to do in all areas of the state. But long island is nothing like most areas of NYS. Also, as I read all these posts saying "your supposed to ask for permission", it bothers me. I follow rules and regulations. I'm ethical with respect to shots I take. I always have a good attitude with respect to sharing the woods with other hunters. I try to do the right thing always. I just get the feeling that the guys who say "ask for permission" think that the guys that say "don;'t" are unethical slobs. Some may be. But I'm not. Lastly, to 7J. In the short few months that I;ve been checking out this forum, its easy to see that Doc is the type of guy that anyone would be proud to have at their hunting camp. Its a shame you can't see that.

7J, I hear you on the "quit crying" attitude. I agree that often enough guys like to complain rather than make success on what they have. BUT, here again, we can poke some holes in your argument, when you take some real world situations into account. 1. A 17 year old kid, whose dad never took him hunting, hasn't had "time to adapt". Finding land to hunt on may be tough. and 2. Certain areas either don't have a lot of state land, or its very crowded, or the state land has certain rules that stink. Like on LI, to hunt state land you have to go to the check station in the morning before your head to your hunting spot. This rule makes it impossible to get on stand in the dark in many cases. In my opinion, the fact that hunters are allowed to access unposted property is cool. There are still instances where owners may not post because they truly don't care if someone hunts it. God bless them.

Hey Guys, I remember reading a thread on this exact subject on this site in the past. I think it was from the regional LI forum. Anyway, it was beat to pulp. I don;t know how many pages it was, but alot. In my opinion, what is missing from this converstation is any attention to the local "customs" of the area you are hunting. What is acceptable behavior in some areas, just doesn't work for others and vice versa. For instance, I used to hunt private property (with permission) in 6A. In that area, most of the private property wasn;t posted. Yet landowners expected hunters to stay off it. Most hunters observed this "code" but occaisionally, some knucklehead would try to hunt without permission and it would be a problem. In this type of area, as a responsible hunter, you should follow the local custom of only hunting on land you have permission for. I also hunt Long Island and the "local" custom here is completely opposite. If a land owner does not post his property, he/she can expect hunters to go on it without permission. End of Story. There are just too many people who live and hunt here for any other "code" to work. No posted signs, means the land is available. Obviously, if you are asked to leave by the owner, you have to go. To take it one step further, by asking for permission to hunt on unposted land on LI, you are opening yourself up to someone saying no. And if they do, you will be shut out while a whole bunch of other hunters will hunt that same land for potentially many years. So as hunters from all over the state chime in on this issue, you have to keep in mind these differing "norms". The other thing worth mentioning is that there is inevitably a varying perspective from guys in different situations. Some have great private access to good spots. Some have massive quantities of state land to hunt. And some live in areas where most of the land is private, yet they don't have any good spots where they have permission. No matter how much you try to stay objective on this topic, its almost impossible depending on where you are coming from.

Hey Gents, Congrats on your bear bigbuckhunter. I shot a female bear a few weeks back that was about 180lbs. When i got back from my hunting trip, i did a little research to see how old it could have been. What I learned was that female bears typically don't grow much over 200 or 220 lbs. Turns out, its the males that keep growing and get much larger. I don't know for sure yet how old my bear was. Still waiting for the DEC letter. But I have a feeling its gonna be quite a bit older than 2 or 3 years. There was just something about its build and the condition of its teeth. Seemed pretty old. Just out of curiosity, how long did it take you to get the DEC letter back after sending in the tooth?

Hey Mossy, Your concerns are valid. Your buddy, as your hunting partner, must take them seriously and address them appropriately. If he chooses to either ignore you or treat you with anything but respect, forget about him. And consider yourself ahead of the game for finding out "how things are", now, before someone gets hurt. If your friend is really someone worth having around your deer camp, he will undoubtedly come through for you here and he will respect you for having the guts to confront him. I've been in your shoes and have seen both outcomes come to fruition. Good luck man.

Yeah steve, thats exactly what I was thinking. Would love to get the rug done one day. and its a lot cheaper. I really just hope I enjoy the meat. Cause if its not that good, I'll probably never bother shooting one again. Man I miss being upstate hunting. Stinks having to come back to the real world. Same as every year...

the 3/4 mount was 1200. one of the guys I hunt with (in fact the guy who passed on the big 6 described above) shot a bear about 5 years ago and the same shop charged him 850 for the same mount. With the economy I expected an increase, but not a 50 percent increase. Since by the time I dropped it off, it had been just about a week since I shot it, I was in no position to really shop around. So I just went with it. Figure I'll pay it off little by little over the course of a year, wont hurt so bad.

Hey Guys, My group and I did pretty well opening week. (Pretty well compared to what is normal for us). There were seven of us who hunted the first 5 days and then 4 who came back after T-giving to hunt Friday and saturday. My brother and cousin shot a 7 ptr and an 8 ptr and I got a bear. The two deer had inside spreads in the 15 inch range, maybe a tad wider. both weighed within a few lbs of 150 dressed. The bear was 145 dressed. Was my first bear, which was cool. We would have had one other buck that had to be passed on because of the new AR rule. Basically, the shot was passed up because the hunter couldnt determine if there was brow tines. By time the deers head was turned, and he could see brow tines, he lost the shot. Was a real bummer because the antlers were wider than ears and pretty high. would have been a solid 6 ptr. Once again, my group and I saw no need for the AR. ZERO spikes and 4s were seen. Even on the side of the road driving to and from our access points, we only saw a good 6 and an 8. We hunt on the giant tracts of state land in the mountains. We like to still hunt and the conditions were generally lousy for it. Not much weather or wind and warm. So considering, i think it was a pretty good year for us. I'm a little bummed at how much my bear mount is costing. Had no idea the 3/4 mount would be so much. But what can you do, its a "do it once" type of thing.

Hey guys, just wanted to let you know that I have also had a slow October on Long Island. I passed up a few small bucks early on. but the action quickly fizzled. I think I saw a total of 8 bucks through the course of the month. But very few does and none in range and presenting a shot. the last couple of weeks its been real tough. I would have never thought tin a million years that by the end of october I would not have had a gravy shot at a doe at some point. Not sure if the movement is just down in my spots, or if too many hunters are in there and putting them off, or if maybe the deer have entirely changed their patterns this year in my areas. I usually make it a point to scout several areas and hunt the best ones. This year I decided to just focus on a couple of the spots that have been pretty good to me the past 3 or so seasons. I don;t know. I keep saying "maybe today the rutt will have them chasing". and nothing keeps happening. Was out this morning before the rain and didn't see anything from stand, but did see a few fresh scrapes in the area on the way out. Hoping for the best...somethings gotta click sooner or later. good luck, Al

you too Steve. just about 3 weeks away!

Steve, What you've heard from the old timers is spot-on with what I;ve heard and seen. I've been hunting there since I'm 16 (I'm 35 now). Having other hunters around is funny thing for me. I am pretty confident that having more guys around will help in getting the deer to move and increase our chances, to a point. BUT, I also Love the solitude of the area and not having to deal with other hunters. Its great when you hear a shot and know that it is likely from someone in your group. With respect to the caliber of deer, you;re right, they are there. I shot a beauty 10 ptr in 2005. My cousin shot a huge 6 ptr in 2007 and last year my other cousing took a big 9 ptr. the 10 and thte 9 dressed at 170, and the 6 ptr dressed at 210. In the 1990s, my uncle shot a 9 ptr that dressed at 240! With the rubs we see too, we know there are always some great deer there. It is true however that there are seasons where some of us don;t see a single buck in a week. And very few does. By time rifle starts, I think a good portion of the chasing has winded down. Also, I don;t know about you, but I don;t get to scout before the rifle season. So when I go, I try to scout as I hunt different areas the first few days of the season and then go from there. LIke you, I wouldnt give up hunting there either. I know exactly what you mean about the type of woods it is and the wild mountain deer that live there. Most hunters nowadays I think are easily turned off by that type of hunting. Understandably, I guess. Not seeing deer gets boring. I remember as a teenager/early 20s being very turned off by it. Once I shot my first deer (2003), I started to embrace it.

Hey guys, I hunt 3A for rifle season for the first week of the season each year. With respect to the new restriction rule, it applies to the portion of the WMU that I hunt (that is, south and west of Route 28). To be honest, I am disappointed in the new rule. I hunt some of the huge tracts of state land within 3A. IN my experience over the past 10 or 15 years, we are seeing many less hunters. Personally, i believe less guys like the mountainous state land because of the steepness/ruggedness of the terrain, the fact that there are less deer there in general, can't use a atv, no permenant treestand, etc. Anyway, with fewer guys in the woods, I don;t think the deer are all that pressured. As proof, only 2 of the last 14 deer we've shot from the area have had less than 3 points on 1 side. I should note that we are more or less meat hunter who don't let many pass when we hunt up there. Also, just so you know, while 14 deer in 8 seasons sounds pretty good, there are 6 of us hunting for 8 full days each season. so 14 is really not that great per man/day, but it reflects the difficulty of the hunting. Not sure where in 3A you guys are, but if you are willing to do some walking into the more vast sections of that WMU, I'm certain you will see some better quality, albiet maybe a lot fewer deer per square mile. one more point, if someone comes to hunt in my area, and works their tail off for a week, and all they see and shoot is a spike. They will consider it a trophy. cause it is.

As stated above, I am against mantatory ARs. Especially in areas that have lower carrying capacity and fewer hunters.....and no doe tags. For me, each season is a new adventure/experience. in my annual 8-10 days of rifle hunting in 3A, I;ve had years where I may see 4 or 5 bucks. And I've had years where maybe I catch a glimpse of 1. Reasons for success are obviously varied (population swings with severity of winter, timing of the rut, weather conditions during the hunt, etc.). Where one year I may pass up a deer or two (yes, anti-AR guys pass up bucks too!) and may or may not wind up tagging one, other years I may not see a buck til day 7. If I choose to shoot a spike late in my hunt, thats my decision. I've been up and down mountains for 7 days in a row, sunrise til sunset, in all kinds of weather. Who is anyone to tell me that my spike isnt good enough? That spike is worth more to me than a 10 point that someone could have shot multiple times, over 3 years, but kept letting it go. We are not farmers who raise animals and then "harvest" them when the time is right. We are hunters who kill and eat animals at our own discretion. Deer that get big do so because they are stronger/smarter than the rest. Not because we let them live.

one other thing, Since the new AR rule for 3A in effect this year, I've been thinking about how it will affect my rifle hunt next month. At first, while I am very unhappy with it, I found solace in the fact that 5 of the last 6 bucks I shot from there (since 2003) have had at least one side with 3 points. But then I took a look at the racks on the wall and started imagining those deer presenting shots in a hunting situation. Turns out that some of the deer had a small third point. For instance, a 1 inch brow tine, or a g3 that was just barely an inch. The point is that after my review, I can say that I wouldnt have been confident enough in the 3rd point to shoot 2 of the 5 deer that wound up having 3 on 1 side. So my harvest in 3A since 2003 would be 3 bucks instead of 6. Lets face it, in a hunting situation, when you have a buck with his nose down moving through the woods, its hard enough to get on him and make the right shot. Now to have to worry about the length of a particular tine in that situation is just ridiculous. I hunt my butt off to shoot what I shoot. And what I shoot doesnt impact anyone else, because there is virtually no one there besides my hunting party and a few other guys. ARs are ok for other areas where the population warrants it. and where most guys hunt small peices, from treestands and very often see the same buck more than once. But for the high peaks of the catskills, it a joke.

Steve863, I couldn't agree with you more. I hunt 3A. Doe tags are virtually NEVER given out for the area. As I detailed about a month ago in previous posts, the area I hunt is huge tracts of mountainous state land that gets vitually no pressure. Woods are forever wild, virtually no farmland, no ATVs allowed. Deer density is low (hence no DMPs). The deer population is managed more by the severity of winters than hunter kill. As a result of all this, of the bucks we see, a fair amount meet the criteria of three points on one side. With all of these details about this area, it is beyond me why anyone would argue for AR in this area. The only thing I can assume is that a fair amount of these guys are "on a band-wagon" or maybe giving way too much credit to the success of "other hunters" in the area.

Long Island Bowhunter, sorry for the "unethical" comment. You certainly don;t seem unethical judging by your last post. Obviously, you did what you could and paid the deer due respect. As mentioned above, this stuff occasionally happens. Its healthy to feel bad about it. you learn from the experience and move on. good luck to you.