Pygmy

Okay, Doc, that didn't take long.. A very tragic event and my heart goes out to the family, but the fact that the person who fired the shot was using a rifle ( which have been legal in the Catskills for years) had nothing to do with it. The shot was fired in the direction of a mobile home by a guy with a .300 mag at a distance of 400 feet... When I was in school, 400 feet was about 133 yards.. I suppose a shotgun slug would bounce off a mobile home at 133 yards, but a .300 mag will not..?.. So what was your point.?..

Okay, I'll check that out.. Sounds like a very sad situation. Since you use this as an example, I assume that whatever happened occurred because the shooter was proven to be a rifle shooter and was beyond shotgun slug range. Actually, it's a moot point anyway. If it happened with a rifle at 1000 yards, it could have just as easily happened with a shotgun at 300 yards.

Eagle..I typically see exits about the size of a half dollar. One of the advantages, as I see it, of the monolithic Barnes bullets is that you can drop back 10 or 20 twenty grains of bullet weight and take advantage of the higher velocity, while not decreasing penetration and not increasing the bloodshot meat and tissue destruction. They expand well but retain most of thier weight. Since your 30-06 shoots 150 grain bullets so well, I would think that the 150 Barnes might be a good bullet to try. All I know is that the darn things shoot great in my rifles, and I have been impressed at the terminal performance on game. More impressed than any other bullet I have used, which include Nosler ballsitic tips, partitions, and several cup and core bullets such as Speers, Sierras and Horndays.

Well, have a ball, Doc. I picture YOU as that grey haired old lady, and chances are, that hole in the wall was made by a shotgun slug... : ...

Hehehehehe.. Yeah, have heard those stories about tracking game also.. All I am saying is that in my limited experience, there has been very little tracking with the Barnes bullets, and the ones that required it could have been done by Stevie Wonder. I am not saying that you should change bullets as long as you are happy with what you are using, because there are MANY bullets that work well, especially on deer. I just want to say that the impression that Barnes bullets are too STOUT for deer is an erroneous one. They work as well or better for deer sized game than any bullet I have ever used.

I love squirrel hunting..Still have a couple dozen in the freezer from last year that I need to use up..I disjoint and freeze them in ziplocs with water to avoid freezer burn. They are just as succulent out of the freezer after a year as they are fresh. Locating squirrels is all about food sources. In my area ( early season) food sources mean Shagbark hickory ( NUMBER ONE) beech (sporadic) pignut ( or pig hickory) and then oak (acorns) in that order. Some years, the first three choices don't produce well, and then oak is number one right from the get go. Once you find what the squirrels are feeding on, you must sit patiently near the food sources and wait for the squirrels to come to you, OR stillhunt PAINFULLY slowly through areas with good feed sources. Most beginner squirel hunters move MUCH too fast through the woods..If you walk at a normal SLOW pace, you may never see a squirrel. Proper stillhunting pace would be to take 10 or 12 steps and then stand quietly, looking and listening, for 10 minutes or so. Then repeat. If you are doing it right, it will take you an hour or more to cover 100 yards. This is not as boring as it sounds. While doing this, you will be seeing deer, turkeys , songbirds and other interesting critters..Last season I stood motionless against a tree trunk and had 17 turkeys feed past me within 20 yards. Another time I sat on a stump fence with a few squirrels at my feet, preparing to clean them and a mink came slinking up the stump fence and attempted to make off with my squirrels. How cool is THAT !! Use your ears more than your eyes. In early season, it is fruitless to hunt when there is wind, because the wind rustling the leaves covers up whatever sounds the squirrels make. Hunt EXTREMELY slowly, and listen constantly for the sounds of squirrels rustling leaves in the treetops, nuts dropping or whatever. Also when foliage is dense you can often see leaves and treetops moving at considerable distances in the woods, and then slowly and carefully stalk in that direction. Hope this helps.

The idea that Barnes bullets are too tough for deer sized game is a common misconception. In my experience they DO expand and kill game as quickly as any bullet I have used. I have killed game with them from coyotes to moose with excellent permance. Since I have been using them I have shot mostly whitetails and feral hogs with them, but usually whatever I hit with them falls down right NOW. Don't get me wrong..There are MANY less expensive options for killing deer sized game that are accurate and work just fine. Terminally, a deer is not a big challenge for a bullet. As long as you avoid the superexplosive varmint style bullets, you'll be fine, and even those will work if you can keep them in the ribcage and avoid shoulder blades and such. However, Barnes X bullets are less expensive than many other "premium" bullets such as Nosler partitions, Swifts, Northforks and others. AND they kill stuff just as dead in thier tracks as any bullet I have used ( and as I said, I have shot a lot of game with ballistic tips). Since I have been using them, they seem almost magical in the way they drop game in thier tracks. AND one quality that I really like, is that they seem to leave considerably less mangled and bloodshot meat than other bullets I have used at similar velocities. Or higher velocities. Due to the fact that they retain almost 100% of thier weight, you can use a lighter grain bullet, and gain the trajectory advantage of higher velocities, with equal or better penetration than standard bullets. That is why I'm working up a load with the Barnes 140 TTSX in my .280 for my moose hunt this year, rather than taking my tried and true 9.3 x 62. They are also very accurate in the 3 hunting rifles that I have tried them in. I just have not found any disadvantages to the Barnes bullets other than the fact that they cost more than some bullets. I can accept that because I have absolute confidence in them and I don't really shoot a lot of bullets at game in a year. In a nutshell, and in my admittedly limited experience, they work great... And NO I don't own stock in Barnes Bullet Inc... ;D ...

Larry...Check out the Viking Motel on Keuka south of Penn Yan on the east branch. Ain't real fancy but last time I was there it was clean and reasonable. You can fish off the shore and docks or take out a rowboat. Good access to places like The Windmill and good restaurants.. Pleasant Valley Inn south of Hammondsport is absolutely first rate. Not cheap, but a real quality dining experience. I have had good reports about Sarassin's on the Lake( SP ?) in Penn Yan. Penn Yan is a pretty cool old lake village and the main street is worth a walk . Stop in the Penn Yan Country Club for lunch. Tell the manager ( named Katrina) that you came on the recomendation of her Uncle Dan... ... No...HONEST..She really IS my neice.. .. You might get a free drink. Tons of stuff like winery tours and farm markets in the area. If you stop by Fox Run Winery on Seneca lake north of Dresden, my nephew ( Daniel) is the tasting room manager. You might get another free drink.. .. Have fun...

Thanks for the vote of confidence, guys... I'm not a crusader, but after living all my life on the Pennsylvania border where the guys south of me have been able to use rifles FOREVER, and until recently we were limited to shotguns here in NY I just get SO TIRED of hearing the same lame old saws about rifles being more dangerous. It just ain't so, and it mostly involves the fact that people are uncomfortable with change. It just seemed to me that if rifles were inherently more dangerous, there would be a higher rate of accidents down in northern Tioga County, Pa, just across the border, where housing and population levels are about the same as they are here in southern Steuben County. There never seemed to be a signifcantly higher rate down there...Sure ,there were some accidents, but they were caused by the same things down there with rifles as they were here in Steuben County with shotguns. People did not take time to properly identify thier targets. They shot in directions that they knew were unsafe. They shot when they did not know if they had a safe background, such as at a skylined deer. They were careless about where thier muzzles were pointed and shot thier buddy or brother or whomever. An unsafe hunter is going to be an unsafe hunter, regardless of what implement he uses.

Actually, it's been a few years since I paid much attention to such things, John.. When was the 171 Typical entered ?

I heard all of the fears regarding use of rifles a few years ago when they were legalized here in Steuben County. Many folks were quaking in thier boots worrying about how much more dangerous rifles are because the projectiles travel farther. Well, those long range incidents have failed to materialize. There have been a few incidents, but many involved shotguns. I haven't heard of a single incident in which the increased range of a rifle was a factor. The fact is, that type of long range accident where a bullet travels hundreds of yards and strikes person or property is so rare that it is inconsequential. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I feel safer sharing the woods with hunters armed with scope sighted rifles than I ever did with a bunch of shotgunners spraying five shot volleys around. About the only difference I have observed since rifles were legalized is that I hear many more single shots and fewer volleys of five quick ones. Much ado about nothing.

I shot early from inside a nice shady shooting shack and let the barrel cool between shots. It was beginning to get hot by the time I quit, though.. ...It was nice to get home to my nice,cool insulated garage to clean the rifle. I have not chronographed the load with the Barnes bullet yet, but with the same charge of RL-19 and the 140 Nosler BT I was getting 3000 FPS.

Hehehehe... I have cooked a lot of game meat, and my experience with bear meat has been MOSTLY neutral or negative, with one exception.. A few years back, before I retired, I often cooked up fish and game and took it into work for my co-workers. I roasted beaver, cooked squirrel and rabbit, moose, caribou, venison, snapping turtle, turkey, ducks, geese and barn pigeons.. One day a co-worker told me that his son had shot a bear and wanted me to cook up a bear roast to bring into work... I told him that my experience with cooking bear meat had resulted in MEDIOCRE results at best, and that some had been far LESS than mediocre. He wanted me to give a try anyway, so I did... He gave me a STANDING RIB ROAST ( AKA prime rib) from a black bear that had been living in a PA cornfield for a couple of months.. I roasted it and it was EXCELLENT.. Everyone raved about it.. It was as good as any game meat I have ever had.. That was the only bear meat I have ever had that was really GOOD, and I suspect it was because it was corn fed and shot, relatively unalarmed the first day of season. I suspect that it was also promptly skinned and cooled as a meat animal should be, rather than hanging around with the skin on for several days, as I suspect many bears are..

An update on my efforts to find a good load for the 140 Barnes TTSX for my .280 Rem. I have carefully worked up to 59.0 of RL-19, with no obvious signs of high pressure. 58.0 gave me a 2 inch 3 shot group...With 59.0, the first 3 rounds went into one inch ( which is extremely good for my .280) but the 4th shot opened the group to 3 inches... Could have been operator error... I think I will play around with 58 or 59 grains and fiddle with the seating depth..I think I am dialing it in. My .280 is not a tack driver...Day in and day out with its best loads I am happy with a 1.5" 3 shot group.. However, I consider that good accuracy for a big game rifle.. It ain't a varmint rig, but within 400 yards, everything I shoot at seems to die, as long as I do things right.

With that loading in a 30-06, I'm guessing you're getting somewhere in the neighborhood of 3000 FPS MV. The Nosler BT is an excellent bullet for deer sized game, and often they are THE most accurate bullet in any given chambering. I have used the 140 Nosler BT @ 3000 FPS in my .280 as my pet load for years...Killed a bunch of stuff with it, including about a dozen caribou, a big mulie buck and a couple dozen whitetails. It also is very accurate and effective in my 7mm08. Never had any complaints. I'd still be using it, except for the fact that a few years ago I tried the Barnes TSX, and I was so impressed with the performance and accuracy that I have since worked up loads around the Barnes for all my hunting rifles, except my M1 garand, for which I use Plain Jane cup and core spitzers such as Winchester power points or Hornady Spire points.

I was just talking B&C.... P&Y is a whole different thing...130 Min for P& Y verses 170 in for B&C. That is a HUGE difference.. I have not checked the stats in a few years, but I guess I should, since I am discussing this topic... I do know that for many years, the state records for both Typical and Non typical were taken in Alleghany County in 1939.. The typ was shot by a fellow named Roosevelt Lucky, if I remember right, and it scored around 190-200.. HUGE for a typical. The Non was , of course, somewhat higher than that, but I don't remember the details. Since then a number of B& C bucks have been taken in the Adirondacks, and probably from other areas around the state. Look up the details, guys... I gotta go grill zuchinni and brats for my Sweetie.. ;D ..

Well... If you DON'T see one, you have only wasted 35.50 ( or thereabouts) on a NR bear tag... If you'd like a bear, I think that it might be worth the price of a tag JUST IN CASE.. On the property that I hunt, I have seen several bears, including a couple BIG ones, that I could have shot while hunting deer...However, I have no need for a bear...Don't much care to eat them, and don't have room/desire for a rug or mount...

What cartridge is it chambered for, Eagle ? Regardless, that's some fine grouping. Sounds like you have a winner. I'm currently working on a load for my .280 with the Barnes TTSX 140 grain, but I sure don't expect any one hole groups.. ..

Larry..I ordered mine on a Monday and it came the next Monday. You should get yours next Thursday or Friday, just in time to fill out your antlerless permit and get it in the mail to arrive the 25th... Also, in case you didn't see my post below, if you are interested in a bear tag, bear season is open this year the whole first week of deer rifle season in 3A. You have to get your bear tag prior to the season.

If I am not mistaken ( which I may be) there has NEVER been a B&C whitetail scored from Steuben County. More seasons than not, Steuben has the highest buck kill and the highest total deer kill, but theren't many real monsters, mostly because most bucks don't survive long enough. Plenty of bucks make the 140 inch Big Buck Club minimum, but that's a long way from B&C, which I believe is 170 inches net. The biggest buck I ever personally saw taken here netted 168 and change. The real hogs come from the Adirondacks and the Lake Plains south of lake Ontario.

Good point, Doc... If it works, why FIX it..?.. I agree with you 100% on that point. My point is simply that many hunters would be better served by buying high quality fixed power scopes than they would by buying a scope of HALF the quality that happens to have variable power and a whole bunch of unnecessary bells and whistles.. Kinda like buying binoculars.. You can buy 3 or 4 pairs of Bushnells, Nikons, Pentax or whatever, or you can buy ONE pair of Leicas, Zeiss, or Swarovskis and never have to buy another pair of binocs..

I just got my NR Pennsylvania license in the mail yesterday. I bought it online. Very convenient and saves me the $$ for gas to drive down across the border and get it. They start accepting NR antlerless permit July 25th.

What's a Ruger 10-22 going for nowadays at Dick's or whomever..?? They are a fine, functional firearm, and if you ever want to trick them out, there's an incredible amount of aftermarket parts to put on them.. Mine is original, bought around 1970..Had 1000s of rounds through it and has never missed a beat. If you only have one .22 rimfire, for hunting, plinking, or whatever, it is hard to beat. I'm not knocking the Savages, the Marlins, or any other brand. but a 10-22 is not that expensive, and you'll never be sorry you bought one. Ask ANYONE who has one..

I don't hunt at night, since I quit fox calling back in the 70s.. We always did that with a shotgun, anyway, since the little devils were often running coming into the call and at that time the only rifle allowed in the SZ was a .22 rimfire.. Pretty cool stuff, though..One night we called in 18 ( killed 8 and that was when grey fox pelts were worth $50.. So, as far as hunting at night, you have the advantage on me.. However, as far as using a rifle scope for anytime even APPROACHING legal shooting time for deer hunting, you might be surprised at how much light a Leupold M8 4X 33 fixed transmits at dawn and dusk... It beats my Leica 8 x42 binocs by a good margin, and they aren't exactly cheap glass... Opening day of deer season last year I had a buck walk past my treestand, which was in a grove of hemlocks, at a full half hour before legal shooting time.. Through my little chintzy scope, I could easily see that he had antlers and could have easily shot him, if I were so inclined.. It was PFD at that time..