phade

Interesting point, indeed What is the difference in selfishness between these statements? I don't want crossbows because it negatively impacts my hunting experience. I don't want more taxes for welfare because it negatively impacts my quality of life experience. Do you see #1 as being selfish in a bad way? Do you see #2 as being selfish in a bad way? We need to step away from "selfish" as a topic and get more to the actual end result. How do we mitigate the risk of vertical bowhunting disruption (percieved or not) and still seize the opportunity of xbow?

Honest question, is there a reason proponents and antis don't want or will not accept a compromise (say disabled/elderly)? Never really heard much on that. It would take compromise from both sides, I think.

I've been called worse, that's for sure. Doesn't make what I bring to the table any less valid.

Doesn't make you right or wrong. It is just important that when other people do, that is equally valid when brought to the table.

Is there something wrong with someone being or thinking they are elite? I don't fully know the answer to that question myself. I used to think so, but not so sure anymore. I "think" elite is just selfish and selfish isn't necessarily right or wrong.

It's all what you make of it, that's for sure. If I can still sling arrows at 62, I'll be one happy dude.

I'm rarely in the middle on most debates, but this one I'm no doubt a fence sitter. I see good and bad out of it. I see change and people in large don't deal well with it. I just think both sides of the topic have such polar paradigms that it is essentially trench warfare. I actually think it is worse than the A/R issue in those terms. For the record, I do see inclusion coming sooner rather than later.

Another example of the accusatory selfish prognositcation right there. Also note the "what if" scenario, too. The game doesn't make the slob; the slob make the slob. Hard concept? We have to step away from that if there is ever going to a be a realistic compromise or conclusion.

Weren't you selling out and moving to FL or something this past year? I thought that was a requirement of moving there from NY (old?). LOL.

That's the thing... I don't think selfish vs. non-selfish determines right from wrong (or inclusion vs. non-inclusion in this case). I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle. How do you least disrupt vertical bowhunters while at the same time making room for xbows? Maximize the opportunity while at the same time mitigating the risk. I think some of the dynamics are not similar to the compound vs. trad situation decades ago as context has changed (less access, fewer bowhunters v.s more, emphasis on mature bucks vs. any buck), while the apples to apples remains (inserting a weapon into another's season). Some people try to argue that there is no disruption, some argue there is. Most people argue this point based on experience because stats are almost always questioned on this topic. In risk management, a perceived risk is as legitimate as a realized risk. I think for debate sake, increased disruption should be a given with crossbows based on that premise. In addition to my writing, my career is based on looking at data and intangibles and coming up with direction. In this case, I believe numbers indirectly show evidence that disruption occurs in some form - but I digress there. The problem is, that the "disruption" is perceived as being selfish. I've hunted heavily in xbow states and I can say there is added pressure from it. Slob hunters abound in all groups no doubt, but if I could rank the % of slob hunters based on my experience: Firearms>Xbow>Vertical bow. I witnessed major "slob moves" the last two seasons in Ohio and I had to bite my lip at the bigger picture. Both were xbow hunters. I don't equate slob to illegal, but these were poor behavior. Again, everyone brings their own experiences into the topic, but answering the question needs to be the focus and not why someone comes from where they do and assigning right or wrong to it. I don't think there is an easy answer here. xbow proponents are not happy unless full inclusion occurs and vertical bowhunters don't want infringement. I think more bowhunters would be open to limited inclusion along the lines of age/disability, but I think more xbow proponents still wouldn't be happy. That is one of the biggest things that kills me about it. Allowing the tool with its benefit (shooting) to those that need it the most seems prudent. I knwo that didn't happen with compounds, but again, I think the dynamics/playing field has morphed a bit as the hunting focus shifts toward today's landscape.

From an observation point (I'm a fence sitter here), any point provided by people against the Xbow have had their points labeled as selfish (although I'm not against people being selfish in certain situations) by the pro xbow crowd in this thread. Most, but not all in the case of the reverse. The only exception I fully see is SteveB, but I think he's a bit older than most of us and seeing things differently based his recurve/trad hunting experience (Note POV is never wrong...it just "is"). Case in point to me was the banter between Culver and Belo on the shot being "easier." I think Belo explained that portion correctly and not for a selfish reason. I think he also agreed with Culver on the pre-shot requirements. I don't think that points to selfishness imo. Other aspect may not be the case, however. I think Grow may have hit it accurately (Am I really saying that?!?!?!).

I strongly prefer a nice glass pot call. A box for me is a good to crank up the volume when needed. I too was slow to come around to the diaphragm call, mostly because i have a small plate (sp?) and simply didn't like using them until the mini-framed ones came out. I now use them when I am set up and don't want to make movements. I use crow and owl locaters with success. To me though, the gobbler call is the best weapon to pull out of the arsenal when you can't get them to commit or if you have a stubborn bird that hens tend to pull away. I usually won't use it until day 3 of hunting that particular bird. I have had instances where the tom on the roost is so fired up at that other gobbler that its a pitch, land, shoot scenario. I also find that the call works well on subordinate birds in the late afternoon. If I am having a tough season or don't have alot of time to hunt in the season, and need to make the most of the day, I'll gladly shoot the lesser bird and that set up works well. I think those birds try to investigate the action/see if a hen will appear just far enough away from the "tom". Hunting with t-storms is indeed fun. I don't really mind the soaker...it's just a very cool experience. I've heard trains, etc. make them shock gooble. You it's going to be a decent morning when they respond to the truck door being shut.

I'm haven't looked extensively, but one facet that it worth noting is that Ohio now has more xbow hunters than "longbow" hunters. "Longbow" includes the vertical bow bunch. The MI report loosely points to it, but doesn't rule out those moving from bow to xbow..a significant % (49% of the replies indicated that they agree or strongly agree that they could not hunt deer during the archery season without the crossbow.) said they couldn't hunt archery if xbows were disallowed. While certainly some are those who can no longer hunt with bow, I think it'd be rational to expect a significant % to be those who are able to shoot a bow but have not learned/put the time in - and I suspect that bunch comes from gun hunters. Sure, it's not factually tied based on the released numbers - they didn't ask that - but I think a guy as smart as you would agree that 49% likely consists of a sizeable portion of able-bodied gun hunters.

Avon has a big problem with deer in the village. They've tried to get bowhunting in the village allowed but it'll never fly due to insurance/liability issues. The citizens support it en masse from what i understand, but the companies insuring the village won't let it happen.

That dude has been hurt...he may have a different rack next year,.

I'm stuck with a Thunderbolt...at least it has 4G and unlimited data. I'd like to try out an iphone but don't want to give up unlimited just yet.

Try a different computer or hard refresh your browser without items in your cart. Clear the history in the browser too. I went on and the special was listed at the top of the screen, too.

Just was able to order 4 for $26 and change.

Good cam for high risk or just a cheap cam. $40 tyd cous.

You dont seem to get it. Some one has a differing opinion and it is perfectly ok to be selfish if that is their prerogative. This whole not being selfish thing pushed on everyone isnt always the best practice. Face it selfishness is acceptable at times when it fits. I personally dont see any Ghandis or Bhuddas on here.

I merely responded to Joe's assertion that one would be worried about their skill as a hunter based on someone being in the woods with a weapon before him. I went by my criteria. If the site's members were dropped into an area and all else the same, he'd be the one to come out with the biggest/oldest buck more times than not. Sam knows his stuff. I have no opinion on the insulting, discrediting, etc. I'm not involved in that. That's for everyone else to pound out.

The whole selfish thing doesn't fly with me, honestly. I think it is OK to be selfish if that is one's opinion or point of view. It is their opinion, just as it is OK to want to share, I guess. I'm on the fence with the xbow inclusion and probably won't sway any direction for the foreseeable future. I've been around xbows enough to know them, their advantages, limits, etc. and I still sit on the fence. I'm not really sure what would make me lean one way or the other. I will say, after spending time with xbow hunters in xbow archery-legal states, I do have to say I saw a higher percent of slob hunters in that group. I'm the first to admit there are slobs in any group, but I am convinced that the rate of slobs was much much higher with xbow hunters. That's just my experience, and not necessarily the norm. Everyone can argue til they are blue in the face on this topic, but one thing that may not be clear is that I'd bet dollar for dollar Sam is probably one of, if not, the, best whitetail hunter on this site. He can walk the talk.

Yep, didn't work for me either. WOuld have ordered a few.

He's doing what Cuomo is doing, just from the opposite end of the spectrum.

While not the brightest of ideas, it's most certainly not the most outrageous. You must have some pretty low standards.