wolc123

I think the effectiveness of a forum like this gets magnified because people are getting lazier every day. If they can look something up quick on their smart phone it beats the heck out of knocking on doors or making phone calls. I would not be so quick to discount it's effectiveness. Hopefully we will see how it works by October 1 2019. I also agree that the early season is not all it's cracked up to be, however I am quite certain that I could finally fill an antlerless tag or two (hopefully including a prized button buck) with my crossbow if I could get out there on October 1 with it. Killing the horned ones has not been a problem for me (the rut works wonders there).

Does that mean the full-inclusion bill that was in the budget has passed ?

I think it might. It is very important that the truth gets out to both the DEC and the NY politicians, that the overwhelming majority of NY hunters support full inclusion. This forum gives them a good "fair-and-balanced" look at the current status of the debate. You know it is now pretty well balanced because one of the moderators supports full inclusion while the other does not. I think they both may have been opposed during the only previous poll, over a year ago, and that just might be why it disappeared and no one can produce any record of it now. So much for "conspiracy theories", at least this one is hanging on and showing well above 2:1 in favor now. The other one got snuffed out right about the time it reached 2:1. Keep up the good work and thanks for making this excellent poll. p.s: Whats up Doc ?

I had seen a couple about a month earlier, on other side of the barn, when we had some warmer weather. They were quick and I was unarmed. This was the only one that I have ever seen out when the temperature was below freezing. I would have liked to have used my crossbow, but that was not handy, and I had removed the battery from the red/green dot sight for storage. I traded away my old woodchuck gun last summer (22/250). With that, I always aimed for center of mass and it rarely left even a mark on the outside of the chucks at short range. I suppose that it turned their insides to jello because they never even twitched after taking the hits. This one did not twitch either, with the .22 LR Remington Yellow Jacket HP centered on the side of the head.

My own largest-antlered buck had a fresher injury, similar to those. Someone had shot a hoof off, a day or two before, and it was hanging by a thin strip of hide. My own first shot struck high on the opposite diagonal front leg, breaking the bone and taking it completely out of commission. He made it into the brush before I could get another 16 gauge slug into him. These days he might have got away, but I was a little bit faster 30 years ago. The two bum legs really slowed him down. I will never forget the sight of those wide, light-colored antlers thrashing up and down thru the low brush. Loosing one leg barely slows them down, but loosing one and a quarter makes them catchable. Based on this experience, my guess is that the OP buck's hoofs were severed from an almost-perfectly broadside shotgun slug or large caliber rifle bullet (a good bone-busting caliber). I am pretty sure that the buck I described would have have done ok on his back stump, had I not intervened before he learned how to use it properly. One thing is for sure, If he did not have that prior injury, we would have eaten a lot more chicken that year, and my wife would have room for a few more pictures on the wall today.

When and if full-inclusion of the crossbow happens in NY, will you continue to live and hunt here ? Thanks to your valiant efforts, and those of the 23 others who have voted against it at this point of this poll, it might be a while before you need to worry about making that choice. If you ever lost the physical ability to draw and hold a vertical bow, would you consider taking up a crossbow if it would add some more years to your archery deer hunting, or would you rather die before giving in to "the dark side" ? Personally, I am somewhat content with the two weeks that we get now in the SZ, and the additional 3 days (with no guns) up in the NZ, about a month earlier. If those days ran concurrent, and did not include all of the rut in the SZ, I would be much less so. It looks like the other 62 folks who have voted for full-inclusion want it pretty bad, so you certainly have your work cut out for you. Keep up the fight and you may be a real hero to your kind someday, just like Stonewall Jackson is to the South. Personally, I don't believe either of your causes is a righteous one, but you certainly believe in yours just like he believed in his.

Where was it found ? That might be where this busted-up 5-point fighter's 6th point ended up. I did not notice any bruises after I skinned him. All he lost in the fight was an antler point, and the end of a beam.

You are.

8" of penetration would be enough to get it all the way thru the heart and put it down within 40 yards.

Those are lined up pretty good right there. Someone 20 yards away could get two hearts with one bolt from a 300 fps crossbow.

It is a great poll there is no doubt about that. Some of those anti-full inclusion die-hards have to be getting some pretty sore feet about now. I sent your fine organization some money for a couple shirts (check out small game - groundhog thread), and I might just have send more and join up this year.

I hope you are right on that. It happened in lots of other states so NY should follow suit. It is hard to believe they can let the minority get their way for too much longer.

I remember having a foot of snow in my brand new boat when I woke up on opening day of walleye season in May of 1989. My buddy and I shoveled it out and towed it to Chataqua lake from their cabin near Salamanca. His dad and his buddy made the much shorter haul to the Kinzua reservoir later that morning. I knew where the deep holes were in Chataqua and we had our limit of walleyes in short order, using perch minnows and a Lindy rig. They never found any in Kinzua on that cold day. They wanted to stay closer, so they could do a little turkey hunting in the morning. I still have that boat, but don't do much walleye fishing from it any more.

I am thankful for the cold weather we have been getting, because I am behind on equipment maintenance. It did look like the winter wheat was starting to green up a little, prior to this last cold snap. That fall planted crop is mostly a nurse crop for the white clover and is also the the first place the deer will go after it greens up. My only spring plantings this year will be 3-4 acres of corn. I have plenty of leftover seed for that down in the basement and it will get planted sometime between Memorial Day and the Fourth of July. The ground needs to get warm enough and dry enough first. Last year, with all the rain, 4 acres was plenty and the last of it has finally been cleaned up over the last couple weeks. The year prior, with the worst drought in recorded history, that much only lasted until mid-December. Fortunately, that was all the way thru ML season which helped make filling the freezers with venison a piece of cake that year. What we lacked in vegetables, we made up for in meat.

How about one of these ?

The best part is, the more the anti-full inclusion folks reply, the more often the truth (poll results) comes back up to the top for all to see. They are so blinded by their hatred and selfish elitism that they cant even see how they are shooting themselves in the foot. What would Jesus want to see a deer killed with ?

Some folks can't handle the truth, so that leaves them with nothing to come back with but odd-ball replies, including admitting their own selfishness. The specific truth that they can not handle here is, that this poll shows that the large majority supports full inclusion, just like the other poll did two years ago. I am going to keep rubbing that in as long as I am able or until full inclusion happens and there is not a thing you can do about it.

Can you see why some may think that is selfish of you ? Do you think it is good to be selfish ? Were you raised in a Christian home ? There is some good that can result from more hunters. I think it is important to retain old hunters and to recruit new ones. Did you not see that most of the folks who are using crossbows in NY were actually bowhunters ? That means that the amount of "stink" in your area may not change that much after full inclusion. The best thing that I have experienced myself, since changing to a crossbow, is a lot less wounded deer. Isn't that a good thing ? Have you ever cut your hands on a broadhead in a deer, or lost some meat, from a poor shot from another hunter ? It is much easier to hit the intended spot on a deer from a rest using a telescopic sight, especially when it was not put into a state of high-alert by catching a glimpse of a draw. You want less hunters in the woods and I get that, it is basic human nature. That does not make it right. It is always best, in the long run, to put others ahead of yourself. Someday you will have to answer for what you have done here on Earth.

I believe those extra belly-buttons were teats.

Those are some pretty good questions so I will take my best stab at answers as it relates to full inclusion of crossbow. First, guns make deer to go nocturnal faster, and over a much wider area than bows & crossbows do. That is because they are a lot louder and deer have pretty good hearing. They use that sense to keep themselves alive, probably to a greater degree than all their other senses except smell. That means when they hear a shot the next town over, they will be less likely to come out in the daylight and feed. I have witnessed this myself, when the neighbors start target practicing in the late afternoons, when I have been out bowhunting. The deer have stopped feeding and hightailed it into the brush, at the first shot over half a mile away. Shooting by itself does not always spook them, as I have also seen them right on the trap or rifle range in the summer. One time a buck actually was sniffing my gun barrel as I was downrange checking targets. That sight gave me some chills as I hoped he did not knock it off the sandbags while it was pointed in my direction. Shooting, combined with some human scent where and when it should not be will send them for cover every time. Full inclusion of the crossbow would allow it to be deployed at the start of the season, when most are still feeding in the daylight, making them easier to kill. Under the current regs of 3 days (10 if you include the early ML week) in the NZ and 14 days in the SZ, by the time the crossbow is legal, the deer have already been subjected to many weeks of archery pressure. Even though that is silent, it still spreads human scent, which makes them go nocturnal. Most hunters know that the sense of smell is the one that deer rely on the most for survival. More tags does not allow for the killing of nocturnal deer or deer on property that is closed to hunting. I believe the statistics show that about 75 % of the deer are killed on the first weekend of gun season so it really does not matter much how long the season is. I never claimed to want to promote "traditional archery", however I have no problems with others doing it. There are plenty enough deer in this state for all. Personally, about the only thing I dislike about hunting is when a deer is wounded and not recovered. That means I will use technology to minimize the chances of that happening. Some may call it luck (I know it is not) but that has not happened to me in the last 14 seasons. The crossbow has played a big part of that. I was never able to approach the 100 % success ratio with a vertical bow that I have maintained over 4 seasons with a crossbow. I know there are some folks who are into traditional archery for the "challenge". Those are the natural-born "fighters". You can't help the way you were born. I am thankful to be a natural born killer. Us killers seek to remove all the challenge we can to get the job done. We don't like to "play games". By the same token, you won't often catch me practicing "catch-and release" when I go fishing. That is another good test to see how you were born. I see "catch and release" as nothing but the senseless maiming of a fine food source. Even though I personally do not agree with theory of traditional archery (more challenge), I fully respect the right of others to continue to do it, and I would never vote to take that right away from them. As far as traditional archery going away, it largely has already with compounds, releases, 75 % let-off, etc. New "fighters" are born every day though, and as long as we keep those options open for them, I see no reason why it can't continue for many more years.

Sounds like pure nonsense to me. Produce such a poll just like Rob produced this one right here or admit you got nothing. Does 70 = 0 ? If not then we have something while you still have nothing. Maybe if you go to the NYB site you can find numbers in your favor.

Look at previous post

Because this poll is now over 2:1 in favor of full inclusion, it shows the increasing level of support with membership, when compared to the only other poll, which disappeared over a year ago. That poll was right about at 2:1 in favor of full inclusion when it went away. There have been lots of threads and discussions on it here but only one other poll. Prove it to us if you think otherwise, or just admit you got nothing.

You see that argument used all the time from the anti-full inclusion minority. What they missing is that the crossbow is silent, just like a bow, while a ML is not. If allowed at the start of archery season, I believe it would give hunters and the DEC the tool they need to get deer numbers under control in the zones where they have struggled. They have been giving out lots of DMP's in these areas, but those do not do much good after the deer go nocturnal. They do that now after detecting a little early archery pressure. It is a shame that the automobile has been the primary means of control in many of these DMU's. At least it keeps the collision shops and insurance agents busy. I have great respect for bowhunters who maintain effectiveness with a vertical bow into their twilight years, but do not oppose other's usage of the crossbow. That demonstrates great selflessness, which is always a good thing. Those who are struggling so hard to keep the crossbow out could learn a lot from these individuals. Selfish elitism is always a bad thing. It is real good to see a few of them dropping their NYB memberships anyhow.

She was not as alert as they usually are when it is warmer out, and barely even looked up when I cracked the frost opening the window about 40 yards away. She probably would have been a good one to try in the crockpot, because the frost would keep the bugs off of it at least. It was 30 degrees out there today and I don't ever recall killing another when it was below freezing I think that is what they used for the Frenchyburgers.