wolc123

A fine, corn-fed button buck would make you change your tune. I wonder why you get so upset about folks killing them, but don't mind killing does after the rut, which might be carrying two. At least the meat/antler poll shows that you are clearly out of touch with the vast majority here.

It looks like a big red-fin shiner to me. Great musky or pike bait.

It happened to me about 25 years ago, back before in-lines and scopes were legal. It was near dusk on the last day and a fat grey squirrel showed up at the wrong place at the wrong time. I aimed for his head and pulled the trigger of my old 50 caliber side-lock, The cap went off and there was about a 2 second delay. I continued to hold in place until the charge went off, neatly decapitating him. I never did get a deer with that gun. The following season, again on the last day, a heavy buck walked directly under my stand. He had already dropped one antler and had 4 points on his remaining side. I squeezed the trigger as he was quartering away, and this time only the cap went off. He looked up at the "crack" and just kept on walking. By the time I got another cap on, he was out of range. It took two more to get the charge to ignite. I later seemed to correct the problems with that gun by priming the channel behind the nipple with a little powder. I never fired it at another deer though. The inline that I use now has corrected the issue, and killed the deer every time I pulled the trigger. My own piss-poor tracking prevented the recovery of one of those however. I learned my most important lesson the hard way on that one: Assume that every shot is a hit until PROVEN otherwise. That was the last deer that I shot at and lost with any weapon. Some say that my luck will run out some day. I won't believe that until I see it, because I know that luck has nothing to do with it.

I love it and so does my wife and our two girls. At this point, it takes about 250 pounds a year to satisfy them and they eat more every year. I am very thankful to live in the meat-hunters paradise that NY is these days. It would be a bit easier keeping the family fed if they would open up crossbow in the Southern zone on October 1st. It looks like I will have to wait another year or more for that. As far as the taste of the venison compared to beef, we all like it better. A lot depends on what the deer eats, how it is cooked, how it is aged after it is killed, and how it is killed. If all that stuff is done right, It tastes a lot better than beef. The secrets are : (white oak acorns, clover, or corn), (medium rare or rare), ( about a week on average at 33 - 43 degrees F), and very quickly. If you screw any of that up, then I can understand why you would prefer beef.

Mine also. I have no use for chicken or turkey, which taste kind of like cardboard, almost completely flavorless. Grouse, on the other hand, has a rich somewhat nutty flavor that is way better than any other white meat I have sampled.

I have seen similar stuff in my home zone (9F). Killing mature does during hunting season is especially tough here because they get hammered pretty good earlier, by farmers with crop damage permits. Those are only good for antlerless deer. By October 1, the ratio of antlered to antlerless (which includes button bucks) is usually around 1:1. The does are very skittish, because they start getting hammered around June 1st. The easiest deer to kill here during hunting season, by far, are 1-1/2 year old bucks. Judging by my own kill numbers in this zone over 36 years, I would say that harvesting 2-1/2 year or older bucks or does is about equal in difficulty. The year that I switched from a smooth bore to a rifled shotgun, doubling my effective range, was the only year that I was able to take more than one mature doe from our farm. The old girls wised up quick to that though, and I have not done it since. It is a lot different up in the northern zone however. Up there I see about 6 antlerless deer for every one with antlers, which makes it much easier to kill does. My trouble up there is that there are no DMP tags, so I can only take a doe during the ML week (or the 3 days prior with a crossbow).

It looks like two more jumped in who say that meat is more important to them. That cancels out Buckmaster finally deciding on antlers, so we are still 2:1 in favor of those who say the meat is more important. I really do appreciate the "antler" folks, because without them and the deer they pass, it would be a little tougher for those of us who try and live a subsistance lifestyle, off the fat of the land. I really hate getting meat at the supermarket, or worse yet from raising domestic livestock. I do like a little lamb once in a while though. Is that what you were talking about Treeguy ?

Will do. If we get a few more pages, I will tally up the votes again. There was a couple years when antlers were more important to me. That was back before I learned how to cook venison (my mom always overcooks beef so she really destroys venison). My wife refuses to purchase beef now, because she has been "spoiled" by the venison. She says that watching the fat come out of ground beef in the frying pan grosses her out.

I am sorry about that Steve, this was my first attempt at a poll. I intended to put up the boxes where folks could have checked which of the two (meat or antlers) was the more important to them. It is interesting how this has worked out though, with 16 of the respondents either unable to decide or unwilling to state which one is more important to them in public. Of the 18 (slightly more than half) who were able to make up their minds, 12 picked meat and 6 picked antlers, So twice as many say meat is more important to them. It looks like I did overestimated the percentage of those with whom meat is more important than antlers, however I was a lot closer than FSW who claimed 95 % cared more about antlers than meat. I did not count on so many not being able to make up their minds. This was not a "Why do we hunt" question, it was simply: What is more important to you as a deer hunter: Meat, or Antlers. "Why do we hunt" has been asked many times and is the subject for another thread. I do not care why others hunt and I actually love the trophy hunters, including FSW. The "substanderd" bucks that they pass might just end up being what keeps my own family from having to eat more chicken on some years.

Meat.

I am certain that I will be ok then and I will pray that you also will be. Good luck with the turkeys.

I tried the poll thing (see deer hunting section) but it did not seem to work quite right. I will try it again closer to deer season. Thanks for your help anyhow.

Which is more important to you ?

The damage was done on this one before the barbs were even pulled out Two of the trebles were hooked into her jaw, in a straight line. Her hard pulling opened up a wide split, about 3 " long. She stayed real lively in the livewell, but I don't think she would have done well for very long back out in the lake with that big mouth wound. She was very tasty when baked with a cellantro and lime marinade though. My wife and girls don't get any of the lake Ontario fish, due to the health advisories, so I will save the other fillet for my lunch on Wednesday.

Baked filet of brown trout, pasta salad, coleslaw and a Genny light. They were hitting pretty good, in 12 feet of water half way between Fort Niagara and 4 mile creek, on Sunday afternoon. One 25 incher sustained some jaw damage, from the trebles of a fire-tiger Rebel fastrac, earning the honor of "fish heaven". Several of her smaller schoolmates got released, relatively unharmed. I can't recall browns fighting harder than they were yesterday. It was as if they were releasing stored energy caused by this delayed spring. They were jumping like steelhead and running like kings. With no wind or waves on the lake, you could really feel the raw power of the fish.

It sounds like you missed that 4/20 reply Rob. Maybe you had your "alerts" turned off. That crossbow poll you made was great and the results have certainly been stellar. If Belo does not make a "what is more important to you: meat or antlers" one about deer hunting, maybe I will try it in a few more months. I like them to be one or the other, with no middle ground, such as you did with your crossbow full-inclusion poll. If folks are unable to decide between one of the two choices, they can always comment in the thread. I do know that we have one guy here who seems to be quite fixated on antlers, and I may represent the opposite extreme on the meat. There is not a whole lot of interest in deer at this time however. Most folks are currently preoccupied with turkeys and/or fish.

Maybe you could start a poll on that and validate my ASSumption with the voting members here ?

Did you note the Ohio harvest numbers that someone posted in another thread ? If so, then you would have seen that the archery numbers exceeded the gun numbers last year. I also have a pretty good idea why that may be: the crossbow has been legal there for 40 years. I don't know how good you have done with killing does with your vertical bow, but I do know how I have, and it wasn't good. In 30 seasons I launched (2) arrows at them, giving one a sore shoulder, when I hit the blade, and double lunging the other. Those are dismal numbers I admit, but they do serve to illustrate to me what an inefficient weapon the vertical bow is, for the job of controlling the deer population. I drew on many other does over those years, not letting the arrows go because one of the other deer in the group caught that motion, alerting the whole group. Killing bucks was not a big problem for me, with just one set of eyes to fool. As hunters, we should all look beyond our personal need to "kill a big buck" every year, and be willing to do our part and help the DEC keep deer numbers at healthy levels. Clearly this is not being accomplished in many areas of NY right now, as the massive deer numbers the OP, WNYB, and others are talking about on this thread right now. The crossbow could not be more relative to this thread, and the Ohio data provides all the proof we need to see that it can get the job done. I think that Ohio may also rank a bit higher than NY in most surveys of hunter satisfaction. There is nothing that NY could do to satisfy me more as a huter than opening up crossbow on October 1. I would also be happy with a "compromise" that would allow "traditional" only (meaning longbows and recurves) from October 1-14, then go back to the October 15 opening date for compounds and crossbows. I think that the number of those with the gumption to become proficient with longbows and recurves would not be enough to "alert" the deer and force them nocturnal, as the hordes of compound-wielding "high-tech" hunters have been doing lately.

Range is just one of many variables. Lots of folks overemphasize it, as if it is the only thing that matters For me, it all comes down to if I think I can make the shot, with the weapon I have, based on all of the variables. That includes range, speed of "target", lighting, obstructions, etc.. For deer, if it all adds up to a 90 % or better chance of success, the shot is safe, and the deer meets my harvest criteria (changes depending on the date, current meat supply, and tags remaining) then I am pulling the trigger. The good Lord has been very good to me over the last 14 seasons, allowing me to take that extra 10 % that I should have lost. Only one of my shots was perfect over that stretch (and it had a multiple page thread of its own on here). All of the others missed my point of aim by some amount, and two never even made contact. I am certain that those two misses did not make contact with the deer, because my third shot put him down in his tracks. The most important lesson that I have ever learned the hard way was 15 years ago, when I assumed that I missed a deer. The coyotes ended up with that one. Now I assume that every shot is a hit until PROVEN otherwise. That is why I continued to fire at that deer, as long as he remained on his feet and gave me clear, safe shots. Had it not been for that "hard lesson" about 10 years prior, he would have escaped cleanly. There was only one hole and one bullet in him. Those misses are applicable to this thread, because they were the farthest shots that I have ever taken at a deer. The range was about 300 yards (for all three of the shots). I had a very good rest for my first and last shot, but the second one was rushed and taken offhand. That first miss has caused me to change tactics a bit. After returning to the scene several times, I am almost certain that it was caused by a branch strike. That rifle has always held under a 4" group on the range at that distance. Now I am more inclined to agree with G-man a bit, and keep my hunts to areas where shots less than 100 yards are the norm. I might consider a 300 yard shot again some day, but only if it was across an open field, or somewhere else where there was no chance of a branch deflection.

It is more of a "adaptation" question than a math question and it goes something like this: Deer are seen in great numbers from early spring until mid fall because there is little human scent out there then and very little danger from their main predator - man. They are especially visible right now because this is the time of year when the food supply is at its minimum and that is another big factor that makes them forage by day. Starting October 1, great numbers of bow-hunters enter the picture, changing things big time when it comes to the amount of "danger" scent around. The wise old does quickly lead their groups to become mostly nocturnal. Food is also plentiful then, so between the danger by day and abundant food, there is no longer a need for the deer to venture out and be seen. Those that do die, while those that do not pass those traits on to their offspring, making future generations tougher and tougher to kill. Allowing the crossbows out there, starting October 1, could help a lot with this situation. Their silence combined with greater efficiency might allow a significantly larger kill, before the deer realize what is happening. The way things have been the last (4) seasons, most of the deer have already gone nocturnal before they have been allowed to be used. A vertical bow is one step below completely useless when it comes to controlling deer numbers, because it must be drawn with deer in close proximity. That is difficult when multiple sets of eyes usually have to be "fooled". Eliminating the need to draw, combined with silence, has the potential to make the crossbow the ultimate deer control weapon. Keeping the crossbow out until November squanders that potential, because the deer have already gone nocturnal before it is allowed to be used. We have only a few "heroes", such as yourself, to thank for that. It looks like we have to wait at least one more year before we can get out there with them on October 1. Are you proud of what you have accomplished ? I know you will bring up "just let guns in then" again as you always do. You seem to not recognize the noise that guns make - which can make the deer in the next county go nocturnal. Just as the deer's nose is many times more capable than man's, so are it's ears. The lack of noise would make the crossbow far more effective than the gun. Like a "stealth" bomber, it can get in under the radar.

This thread is not "officially" redundant, because all traces of the only other poll that I can recall on this subject have conveniently disappeared. I can only assume that 2/3 of the moderators now support full inclusion, so this one might not go away so easily. Thanks for the poll "how to advice".

It might be all about the antlers for 28 % but for the other 72 % (myself included) it is all about the meat.

I am planning for my 3 vacation days in mid-October in the NZ as I type (did you forget about that fine part of NY where the scenery is a lot better ? )

At least now the math is easy and shows that 72 % of the members of this site who have voted support full-inclusion right now. Are you saying I made a math error ? Did you miss the part "of the members who have voted" ? Either way, thanks for bringing the poll back up to the top. Maybe we will break over 100 votes now and in so doing, improve the poll's accuracy a little bit.

This is my favorite site. I appreciate the contributions of all the members here, even though I only agree with 72 % of them on average. I do enjoy the arguments with the other 28 %. It does feel good to be in the majority most of the time. Although I give the bulk of the credit for all of my hunting success to OUR Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I have definitely learned some good stuff from the folks on here. Where would I be without the Butt-out II that was recommended by my buddy Chef, who is being very undeservably grilled on another thread right now as I type. Or how about that PA chest girth chart that was contributed here by another prolific member. Just last night, we enjoyed "hidden tenderloins" for dinner, which I never would have found without that Grant Woods video that someone posted on here. Folks tend to get pissed off and aggravated at this time of year, because their vitamin D level gets low due to the lack of sunlight for so long. That makes the personal attacks run rampant. I hope you all can find it in your hearts to forgive each other as I forgive all those who have (and I am certain will continue) to rag on me here. It is all in good fun.