wolc123

You are mostly right. The only little tweak we need is full inclusion of the cross-bow. I spent about the same number of weekends out there and had deer in range on all but the last two. We were able to harvest enough deer this year to fill my freezers as well as those of friends, neighbors, and extended family members. That crossbow inclusion would have resulted in two more DMP's filled for donation to the homeless folks. Instead, there are still way too many deer around here (based on all the tracks I just saw out on the snow having just returned from a squirrel hunt), and some folks who will be a little hungrier than they would otherwise be this winter.

Doc, The special season for the Olympic longbow shooters would be so that those who put in all the extra time and effort required to obtain world-class abilities would be rewarded with a "special season". Maybe it could start right after the Olympics wind up, in late August or so. Your logic would indicate that they deserve that. The first deer taken in NY were probably killed by native Americans with wood longbows and stone arrowheads. How about another early season for that, right before or after the Olympians get their crack? Once again, this would make sense per your logic. As far as your gun question: I would tell those folks to learn how to use a crossbow and hunt with it. The silence of the crossbow is a huge advantage when it comes to delaying the nocturnal changeover that occurs when the deer realize they are being hunted. I do agree with many who think that they should have to take an archery course and learn the difference in how an arrow kills compared to a bullet. I took that course and have killed many more deer with a vertical bow than a crossbow. Requiring that 8 hour course would go a long way towards you keeping that "peaceful time" to which you so desperately cling. Since you like answering questions: Are you a NYB member? How many deer have you hit but not recovered with your vertical bows? Have you ever missed any clean? If you were to go over to the dark side, and use a crossbow, would you expect your success percentage to increase to decrease? Can you fire a rifle more accurately from a rest or off-hand? Does a telescopic sight help or hurt your accuracy?

I wonder if the inventor is down in Key West enjoying the profits right now. $120 each on Amazon, he is probably sipping margarittas or them fancy craft beers. I do alright in upstate NY, with bucktail jigs and Genny Cream ale. Don't start drinking until you have your limit through. The first thing alcohol takes away is the ability to detect a strike.

Definitely keep us posted, especially if it works on lake trout.

Happy B-day. Too bad you could not have got in on A-day like me.

I appreciate your honesty. It is probably easier for you, being from VT, and not really having a bird in this hunt. One of our biggest problems in NY, is the steady decline in the number of hunters in the woods. In the short run, that might seem like a good thing, because it does add to the "peace and quiet" you can experience. Looking at the big picture, it is not so good, because hunters are the most important part of maintaining a strong, healthy deer herd. If hunting were not allowed, it would all be up to automobiles, starvation, disease, and predators. Put yourself in the deer's position, what would be the most painless way to go? I also understand grow's argument about deer going nocturnal and that is is tougher to kill does. Bucks have not been a problem, but I have yet to take a doe with my crossbow. I am certain that I could do it easily, if I could go after them from the start of archery season. I ended up eating two of my four DMP tags this year, and I live in one of the zones (9F) that is grossly overpopulated with deer and where the DEC has been struggling to get them under control. I have the tool to do the job (crossbow) but the selfish elite have prevented its use when it could work best on the does. I also trust the DEC, and believe they are doing all they can to keep everyone happy. They will continue to adjust DMP's, as required, to maintain healthy deer populations. If hunter's are not able to take enough deer with the current system, such as is happening right now in zone 9F,9A and others, then it is time to ease the restrictions. At this point, the restriction against the crossbow, at the start of archery season, is the single biggest one that is preventing me from doing my part. A crossbow is far more effective on doe than a vertical, because it does not need to be drawn when groups of deer are in close. It is very rare to see does traveling alone in this grossly overpopulated area. Killing a lone buck with a vertical bow is a piece of cake in comparison.

I would not hunt, if I did not need to eat, or if my appetite and that of my family could be completely satisfied with vegetables. If that were the case, I would spend all my spare time gardening. It say's right in the Bible, that God put animals on the Earth for man to eat. Who am I to not carry out His wishes and do as He intended? I suppose that anyone who does not hunt for food could probably be satisfied with computer games.

Do you hunt with a recurve or a longbow? How many years do you think we have before this steady progression will result in rifles used throughout archery season? Will it be more than the 30 years or so years that crossbows have been legal in Ohio? It sounds like your head may be in the sand here in NY, and you might be completely ignoring all the evidence in the surrounding states. I see only one valid reason why someone would want to keep crossbows out, and that is to limit the number of hunters who have access to the deer before the guns are allowed in. There are two specific words for wanting to have everything to yourself and not wanting to share with others who may be weaker or less skilled. Those would be: SELFISH, and ELITISM. I love it when the anti's try and turn things around and claim that those of us who want more folks to be able to enjoy more of archery season are the selfish ones. Think about what you are saying before submitting your reply. Not all of us hunt for the "challenge". There are still many, like myself, who's primary reason is to provide meat for their family. Is efficiently providing meat for others selfish? Do you know that the number of hunters has been declining for many years and that the crossbow would be a good way to rekindle some more interest with groups which have been underrepresented, including the very young and old, woman, and handicapped? Do you understand that even you will join one of those groups one day whether you want to or not? Do you think you might change your selfish, elitist stance at that time? Maybe we should establish a special early long-bow season for Olympic class athletes who have earned medals? When and if the change comes, and full inclusion arrives, no one is suggesting that you will not be able to challenge yourself more, if you wish, with compounds, recurves and longbows. Yet you remain hell-bent on keeping the crossbow out to keep your "special time" to yourself.

The numbers I have seen over the last (3) years in zone 6C have been steady or slightly increasing, which agrees with that article. Hopefully, that means antlerless deer will still be fair game during early ML next year.

I shoot them occasionally from my bedroom window with my 22 rimfire, off the carcass pile that is 100 yards out back. I missed one on Friday. I don't think I compensated quite enough for the crosswind (22's get blown off pretty good at that range).

Hunting and fishing are exactly the same to me - it is mostly about putting top quality food on the table.

I just finished almost 3 hours of unwrapping Christmas presents with the girls out by the tree. The best part was the smiles on their faces as they opened up their "treasures" and the cards they made their mother and I. Merry Christmas to all and thanks for the birthday greetings.

I don't do it. That is what nice, comfortable, enclosed blinds are for.

Reeltime, I do agree with you on several points: First, the crossbow should be treated as archery equipment and users should need the archery course to use it. The requirement of that, as well as full inclusion, are part of the current bill that is stuck in state assembly. Second, you are correct that I want an easier way to kill a deer. The primary reason I hunt deer is to obtain food for my family. Venison accounts for the bulk of the protein that we consume, and has for many years. I don't want to see deer wounded and not recovered. It has been more than 10 years since that has happened to me with any weapon, including vertical bows. I have only shot at two deer with the crossbow and both shots resulted in extremely clean kills (1 heart, 1 double-lung). I will say that my record with a vertical bow over 30 years of use was under 100%. I have a lot of respect for my quarry and the crossbow enables me to minimize the chances wounding them and not recovering the carcass. You are way off mark on several points: First, I would never want any type of gun in archery season, including rifles, shotguns, or ML's. The "noise" of these would cause the deer to go nocturnal, making them more difficult for everyone to kill. The reason for your bitterness is that you know deep down that your opposition is based on selfishness and that is a sin. That is due to the Holy Spirit which lives in you and in all people. God's power was never demonstrated more clearly than on this very day 2017 years ago, so it is very understandable that you are feeling particularly bad about your selfishness this morning, as evidence by all the bold in your response. Please try and relax and enjoy this, the greatest of all Holiday's. with your family. The battle you are fighting here is lost. I will leave you alone for a while now, and go watch my kid's open their presents. There is not a crossbow under the tree this year, but there would have been if we had full inclusion. Merry Christmas

2-1/2 and 1-1/2 acres. We had a bad drought this summer which cut yield significantly, especially on the larger plot, which was on well-drained soil. The smaller plot, on mucky, bottomland soil, yielded much better in the drought conditions, and 5 of the 6 deer were taken in and around it. I always try and keep the bases covered by planting corn on well drained and poorly drained soil. I also optimized the effectiveness of the corn that survived the drought by trapping coons (7 this year). In NY state, the regs say coons may be legally trapped by the landowner, without a DEC permit, prior to open trapping/hunting season, if they are doing damage to crops and if the carcasses are burried or burned immediately. After trapping season opens, you can just toss the carcasses out in the fields for the buzzards to eat. The furs are basically worthless in today's market. I like to break up the corn plots, because one big plot will usually become the territory of one mean old doe and her group. More plots means more doe groups, and more bucks in pursuit. Usually I try and keep them 1/2 to 1-1/2 acres in size and try and get in 3-5 acres each year. 3/4 of my total plot acreage is typically white clover, and when that starts to get overrun with grass, I plow it under for a new corn plot. Doing that saves me lots of cash in fertilizer, because that old clover banks lots of nitrogen in the soil, especially if you keep it mowed regularly. I also save money in clover seed by minimizing roundup usage. By applying it only on the corn rows, the surviving clover between the rows usually comes back strong in the nitrogen-depleated soil, the year after the corn, without the need for re-seeding. White clover does very well at our place in WNY because the soil is rich in limestone and never needs supplimental lime. Minimizing fertilizer use also minimizes the need for lime because synthetic fertilizer is highly acidic. For me foodplots are all about minimizing input costs (fertilizer, fuel, spray, lime and seed), and maximizing output (pounds of boneless venison).

reeltime, The poll on this site (in the bowhunting section) did show that a 2:1 margin of bowhunters supported full inclusion. That was a huge revelation for me and I see why "someone" made it go away as soon as the truth came out. Those like you who are opposed do seem to be a bit more passionate, or maybe desperate in their arguments to hold the line. It always gets that way when the end is near. Relax, it will be ok. You will still be able to use your compound or even a longbow or recurve if you wish. Sharing the woods with some weaker, lazier, older, or younger folks won't be all that bad. It might even increase your challenge a bit but isn't that a good thing? It does not sound like you want to use an easier way to kill deer.

I hear you on that. After getting a good taste of hunting up there, doing it down on the flat-lands of North-Western NY looses most of it's luster. Even the racks are cooler looking up there. The one I killed on Thanksgiving weekend had reddish colored antlers. The breathtaking scenery and almost total lack of hunting pressure adds more to the experience than can be described with words. This was an exceptionally good year for scenery up there, with near-peak fall foliage at the start of ML season and snow-covered mountains at the end of Rifle season. Killing deer in both those scenerios this year was especially awesome. What made it even better was the ease of the drags. The doe during ML ran right back towards my in-laws lake-house after I shot her in zone 6C, a short distance out back. My rifle buck dropped dead just off an ATV trail (on the NE edge of the Adirondack park) that my father in law uses regularly. After a call on the cell-phone, he and my nephew were there with the meat wagon in about 20 minutes. I know what those long drags are like and I don't miss them all that much. The last one, that nearly killed me a couple years ago, was a heavier buck that died deeper in park. I had to drag it a couple miles, thru a thick swamp, to get to an ATV trail on the edge. I am looking forward to getting up there in February for a little ice-fishing. I will probably bring the 16 gauge side-by-side and try for some grouse if the snow is not too deep. I flushed a lot of them while deer hunting this fall. I like the taste of them a lot better than turkey.

I tried a Winter Warmer from Genesee Brew House the other night. It was pretty good. I may have to pick some up, for special occasions, now that they stopped making 12 horse.

You might not need the roundup, using the method described above. A lot will depend on your soil type and if you can get it scratched up enough for ok seed contact with the wheat or rye. Those seeds will out compete just about any weed when planted in the late summer or early fall. They will literally choke out the weeds. Not "nukeing" the weeds will make that scratching a little tougher for sure. In more open areas, a bottom plow could work to bring up some dirt, certainly better than a tiller, but roots will still give you trouble. It would probably be best to just add some weight to a disk and scratch the ground up as best you can with that. I had a similar situation in making plots, but all of mine were converted from old hay fields, after we sold our cattle. I did let much of the poorer soil revert to natural vegetation and these are now my sanctuary areas. I did not need to use any roundup in opening those plots, just turning them over with a bottom plow prior to disking. I minimize my use of roundup, only applying it on row-planted corn (just on the rows where the fetilizer is applied). The weeds only want to grow heavy in the rows where the fertilizer is anyhow, and I take out the weeds between the rows mechanically with cultivators. Corn is definitely my "money" crop when it comes to foodplotting. This season, after subtracting all input costs (fuel, fertilizer, spray, etc.), the cost of boneless venison came in at less than $1.00 per pound. That output resulted from (6) deer harvested in and around 4 acres of corn. The action there ended with an 8-pointer the neighbor kid dragged out of the corn field on the last day of ML season this Tuesday.

You sound bitter, I will pray for you to have a good Christmas.

Does it shoot arrows and kill by cutting or bullets and kill by shock? Does it use gunpowder and make lots of noise when fired? That would be a better way to group it. I understand why some of you would prefer to leave it like it is (selfish elitism) but the poll on this site showed that the majority of BOWHUNTERS prefer full inclusion. Christmas is no time for selfishness, so wake up and get with the program. There are plenty of deer for everyone. If you don't believe that, come over here and look at all the tracks in the snow.

please post a photo of one so I can tell if it is an over under or side by side

Is it an over/under or side/side. If God intended for us to shoot over/unders He would have put our eyes that way.

They sure are purty but form should follow function and they fail the later part. Don't do it folks. Our house was lost to a fire around Christmas many years and it is not fun. My old deer grinder, that got saved while submerged by the fire-fighters water down in the basement, still has the burn-marks on it. That still serves to give me a timely reminder of fire safety every fall.

Prayers sent.