reeltime

this has been an interesting read, so far its been a mirror image of ar/hr discussions on the hunting pa site. back in the earlier 2000's when Gary Alt did the pa game commission road show speeches a lot of folks looked at the mature antlers he held up and bought his presentation hook line and sinker. the doe carnage that ensued for 2 years was ridiculous at best, they may have heard him talk about hr (herd reduction) but it didn't sink in until reality hit. quite a few of the public land areas were just about decimated in population. there was such an outcry from hunters that in many of the zones they did away with the 2 week concurrent season. most area's now have 5 days of antler and 7 days of concurrent season the rest of the zones have the 2 week concurrent season. since its inception they have made some tweaks to the program; - at first it was 3 to a side in most zones, in the western zone it was 4 to a side (both counted brow tines) several years ago the changed the 4 point zone to a "3 up" meaning 3 up on the main beam - again the antlerless changes. -they made some changes in one of the zones in the "cwd hot zone" where antlerless tags were boosted and open all season for doe. without a doubt no program has been as hotly contested and divisive amongst hunters as the ar/hr program in Pa. to some extent it has helped the antlered deer reach an older age class. without a doubt there were many area's in the state that needed numbers to be reduced but not to the levels they were reduced to. one of the biggest downfalls of the management plan in pa is the wmu's are too large, they went from county antlerless tags to wmu's similar to what we have here in NY. that encompass multiple counties with a multitude of habitat and terrain intermixed in the wmu. The pgc has changed some antlerless allocations but for the most part the numbers have stayed steady, some property owners have taken that matter into their own hands and posted property to protect the antlerless deer. The hunting heritage and hunting mentality is far different there than it is here... simply put if landowners do not protect the doe's from the hunters the hunters wont protect them from themselves, what I mean is with a large majority of those folks if they have a tag in their pocket they need to fill it at all costs. I cant tell you how many times i have heard and or read someone say I only saw 2 doe all season and if I hadn't shot them I wouldn't of gotten a deer, that is why some land has gotten posted to protect the deer. What is going to happen here? who knows. i guess we all have our own ideas and wants,,, whether its for selfish reasons or not. I have my thoughts on what I would like to see happen but no matter what they do one thing is for sure its not going to stop me from hunting, may have to change my game plan but not gonna bow out of the game. and truthfully for myself its not going to change a thing, for me its a personal choice of deer I want to shoot just as i feel it should be for anyone else to do the same, I am not gonna set here and lie, as I have gotten older I have more of a problem with the fawn kills, more so with how many buck fawns get killed. I hear all the time there are not many buck around......ayyyupp kinda hard to have racked bucks when people shoot them when they are only 5-7 months old. ny is no different than most states, some area's the herd is below carrying capacity and other area's its over capacity, trying to balance that and hunter satisfaction is a near impossible task, and with some just as in day to day life you will never please everyone. just my thoughts and observations from living with ar/hr since its inception in Pa. so take it for what its worth, they set the laws I abide by them and hunt accordingly, I may not always agree with them but I have to hope the biologists know what they are doing.

that's what they need for snow geese

thanks Pygmy,, your too kind. I will certainly second the recommendation on the thermacell i have had one in my vest since Tim Herald turned me on to them many years ago.an absolute must have for skeeters and black flies. another piece of equipment I don't leave home without is a turkey seat, it has folding legs 2 short legs and 2 about an inch longer, what a difference in comfort setting at the base of a tree. its not uncommon for me to be setting at a tree 1-2 hours before daylight. camo is a personal choice, before i switched to a leafy wear suit I used to use forest floor bibs and either a timber pattern jacket or a realtree pattern with more green as the season went on and more things greened up. set up location is probably one of the biggest keys to being successful, you need to be where the gobbler is comfortable going, the best caller in the world is not calling a bird into an area he doesn't feel comfortable being in. through scouting you will know where he likes to be, whether you pinpoint him by his gobbles, visual, or sign (feathers, tracks, dust bowls droppings) myself I don't like a blind, i like to run and gun and with a blind that's too much gear to tote. once I find a bird that I plan to hunt I have spots ready before season, I will clean out base of trees, clear a path to those trees, look at aerial photo's to find the easiest way in. in some cases it takes more prep, a couple years ago I had a gobbler that had been giving me fits for 2 years no matter how i tried getting to him i couldn't get to where he went every day, posted on 2 sides a swamp around the other 2 sides. that spring he had moved to #1 on my hit list as a 5 year old. so I went there just after ice out and spent 2 days clearing logs out of the water so I had a clear path in. I had to go in there early because of the geese and knew i had to move slow so i didn't bust out the geese and tip him off, I got soaked going in there but I killed him the first week. you will probably want to get a turkey vest, they have pockets for all your gear and keep things close to hand while your set up. Also if you go with a slate or glass call pick up a few different strikers, same pot with 3 different strikers can give you 3 different sounding hens. if you want to pick up a some video's I would suggest Denny Gulvas, probably one of the best turkey men to ever walk the woods of Pa.

good price. I would also agree that until he gets comfortable shooting that gun I would certainly at minimum use the sled or get the reduced recoil ammo. The last thing you want to do is get him to develop a flinch, its far easier to develop a flinch than to correct it. the .270 is basically a 30-06 necked down to .27 cal, I can tell you that my .270 kicks just as hard as my 30-06.

sounds like a fine choice. as long as he can accurately shoot the gun and is confident in his shooting ability that gun and caliber can suit him the rest of his life for whitetail deer. I do not understand why so many people look down on the .243 round. its a very versatile round, everything from groundhogs to deer. I have shot a number of deer with a .243, dads in his 80's and has shot a lot of deer in his life and most of them with a .243 all resulted in a dead deer and many of them never took a step, they wouldn't of been any more dead if they were shot with a 30-06, 270, or a .338 win mag.. shot placement and confidence is what counts. no matter the caliber you choose first and foremost you need to make sure the gun fits him, if it doesn't fit properly its going to be uncomfortable to shoot and take longer to acquire the target both can be detrimental when the time comes to shoot a deer. what I mean is if it takes time to find the deer in the scope because the stock is too short or too long it can lead to panic to try and get on the target which can lead to a rushed shot and that is rarely a good thing. good luck and enjoy the time on the gun range and in the woods with your son.

all good advice so far. I love my bow hunting for deer but I eat breath and sleep turkeys! I do far more hours scouting than hunting, but I am looking for a specific feature on birds I want to hunt. SPURS. by the time may 1st rolls around I usually have 60-70 longbeards located but only a handful of those are birds I am interested in hunting. one thing that really needs stressed is SAFETY. for whatever reason people seem to loose their minds when a turkey is gobbling and there are a number of issues each spring. hunt defensively. never assume you are alone after a gobbling bird. always assume that the noise of something approaching is another hunter until you confirm otherwise. even on heavily posted and patrolled ground you can have someone sneak in on you. be aware of your clothing, not just your camo but whats under it. white, red, blues should not be worn, even under your camo so there is no chance of it being visible. I am extremely careful myself since I have pretty light colored hair and my beard is fairly white, even while walking I try to remember to keep my headnet on because of my white hair. I always try to set up with a tree that is as large or larger than the width of my back. i like the woods to be a little more dense with not more than 50 yards of visibility. I do not and have not used decoys in years, not even a hen decoy. I would never use a gobbler decoy. my go to call is a burrville bomber made by Tim Fralick out of watertown, its a longbox but it is absolutely deadly on gobblers. i carry 3 or 4 box calls, 4 pot calls, mouthcalls, and a wingbone in my vest. but hands down that bomber gets it done time and again. knowing what to say or more importantly what not to say will pay dividends, the 2 most common mistakes made by hunters is 1. set up location 2. calling too much. pay attention while scouting, wild hens don't waltze around the woods yapping non stop, they have learned that noisy birds get eaten, same goes with gobblers. I have noted far less gobbling over the last 5 years as the coyote population has increased, I have also noted an increase in predator kill sites involving turkeys the last few years with a large increase last spring. I have killed more birds with 3 or less series of calls than doing an excessive amount of calling, don't get me wrong there are times and birds that you gotta hammer with the call but generally speaking soft calling will yield better results especially on heavily pressured birds. I rarely ever call to a bird thats still on the limb unless I am right where I know he wants to go, then I will do a wing fly down with a quick soft cluck/yelp series. a lot of times he will pitch right to me. if he moved and is in a different tree and does not have hens with him but wont respond once on the ground I will let him move off and then go to the tree he was roosted in and set up right there and then hit his with the calls. I have killed a number of mature gobblers doing this, since its how its supposed to happen in nature, the hens go to the gobbler not the other way around. as far as the gun goes, just about any gun will do as long as you know the effective range. it takes some range time but you should be able to find a suitable choke/shell combo to have a 30-40 yard gun. I would recommend as others have said, some kind of sighting system, either rifle sights, or scope. I have a dedicated turkey rig thats topped with a scope, I have done a lot of work to that gun to get it where its at but i am a turkey nut so I can justify it good luck, and I kinda feel sorry for ya knowing that its quite possible that the first time you call in a gobbler and you see that big black beach ball with a neon lightbulb walking towards you that you will be ate up on turkey hunting.......its a GOOD addiction!!

law, we are over in western pa. sorry about the double post, I guess I had already posted that trips series of pictures..... too many irons in the fire and cant keep stuff straight.

been in pa more than ny the last couple months. but I needed to come back to start a house build here. a fresh coat of snow thanksgiving morning at camp. since mother nature decorated outside i decorated the inside. I could only fit 7 deer mounts in Judy's crossover and a few duck mounts so I will just have to take a few mounts each trip down to camp. a few small bucks in the stairway.

remote car starter. mine this year is we are flying her oldest son home from utah on Christmas eve. she hasn't got a clue and he has not been home for Christmas in 11 years and the last time he was home was 3 years ago. i am sure she will be shocked beyond belief.

in the last 10 years they have done some timber cutting on the lake marsh game lands in wayne county. one of my charter customers does quite a firewood business and he does quite a bit on state land via contracts with the DEC.

that would be fun hector but it would likely be thrown out since in reality although our names on the deed we are still only renting the land from the state with minimal restrictions of what we can do on said land, and even local politics can regulate what we can do.

i have neither the time nor energy to type in all bs from those people but its out there for anyone to see all over the web and the misleading signs at protests. many of the claims have been proven false, one that comes to mind is the "our water now burns" statement. - screwing landowners out of royalties? not saying it couldn't happen BUT many times its a misunderstanding of the process or readings on the landowners part. or are you talking about joe gets 5% on his royalties and pete down the road gets 12%? royalties are negotiated at the time of the lease agreement. or maybe you mean people bought land but didn't get the mineral rights ( which do not have to be sold along with the property) -not revealing the fracking solution? ummm nope its on our paperwork that we got from the gas company, also how its hauled, used, containment, and disposed of. - lease fees? again lack of landowners homework probably leads to the companies getting leases for less than the average going rate. as I have have told many people when they are approached, go hire an attorney that specializes in the natural gas field before you sign anything. to me that is no different than hiring a realestate attorney when buying property. - co2 emissions? because people are burning more gas? or you think co2 is being emitted from the wells? - ummm nope they said nothing about energy independence, was never even mentioned, but in our personal situation and in many around our area WE have become energy independent. we are no longer under the thumb of fuel oil or propane companies gouging us for their own personal piece of the profit pie. that is another thing that can be negotiated into a lease contract, free gas supply at a negotiated amount. - you may very well know more than I do about the gas industry since I don't know you from adam, all I am going on is being involved personally in the oil and gas industry for the last 40 years.

this doesn't surprise me at all. not sure at this point it really makes that great of an impact because the biggest part of the boom has slowed down because of market saturation. far more of the econut's claims are greatly exaggerated and even completely false. my honest feeling on most of the bs associated with this is that most of those opposed to it wouldn't be eligible for ogmr's ( oil,gas mineral rights) so they wouldn't make money on it and they don't want others too either, and some people just are not happy unless they can cause other people issues. there are local people here that have the no fracking signs in their yards some I have asked about the signs and if they knew what fracking was and what all the hoopla was about and most of them said they didn't know and someone they knew gave them the signs. all I said was do some real research on the subject and make your own informed decision to support it or not. these gas companies are heavily regulated and are for the most part closely monitored by both state and federal agencies. as far as the fracking operations go those are even more closely monitored. the gas company does water testing routinely, and prior to and following any testing they do. the well roads in pa have to meet pa dot standards, most of the well roads are in better shape than the state roads! the well sites are taken care of and are not that unsightly. the miles of gas line right of ways give wildlife another place to forage for food, all of ours are planted with food plot mix and are a great attractor for turkeys in the summer and fall when the grasshoppers are out in full force. all of the well roads have gates on them at the gas companies expense if the landowner chooses which most do to try and keep the 4 wheelers out. I do know for a fact that our local gas boom down home has saved numerous family homesteads from bankruptcy or having to be sold off. some people even got a nice retirement nest egg from it. I do know that its put a lot of money into the local economy something thats been missing for quite some time. over the years I have heard of very few problems, i am not new to the oil and gas business since my great grandfather and grandfather had oil/gas wells that we still have and are still producing. even as independent oil/gas producers we are heavily regulated and inspected by state agencies. sometimes they are a PITA but I can understand they have jobs to do and some people are always cutting corners. we run a pretty tight ship and keep our sights clean, neat and well kept so our inspections are typically just looking over our records, looking at our well sites and its a looks good and have a nice day visit. as always your mileage may vary.

guessed at 50 but really 60, a 10 yard misjudgement is a pretty poor guess and even more so with archery gear. absolutely no comparison between archery equipment and a rifle bullet in either trajectory or means of killing. to think a deer cant hear a bowstring at 60 yards just baffles me. deer are not there for target practice. guessing where the arrow or bolt will hit is not showing respect to the animal or the sport. shooting outside your known effective range will likely result in more injured and or dead and lost deer than killed and in the freezer deer. sure sometimes you get lucky. I would rather rely on known skill than luck.

check with the dozer guy. if he pushes the trees into a pile I would be VERY careful trying to go in there to cut firewood from the pile. when they doze trees into a pile the trees can have alot of pressure on them, sometimes all you need to do is touch the tree with a chainsaw and they will widow. any time we have ever done any clear cutting prior to dozer work we left 5-6 feet of stump and we never had any issues.

another step closer with the master bedroom.... we got done working in the tractor shop this afternoon and Judy wanted to go for a ride to the carpet store. doesn't look bad. now to get the chest of drawers and upper cabinets built so we can finish up the trim and get stuff moved upstairs.

with 130 acres and horses there is ALWAYS work that needs done, especially with dad and his mile long list of things that need to be done. But i don't complain for 82 years old I am thankful he is still active and cherish every day I get to talk to him and help him around the farm.

bkln, we built the original camp in 2012, then broke ground on the addition the first week of may this year. while i was here the last week of spring gobbler we got the basement floor and footers poured and the basement walls laid up and the basement capped. from there it was a fight with the weather till late june we had a break or should i say we were supposed to have a break according to the weather guru,,,,, I moved some charters and construction jobs around in NY and headed to camp with 3 days available. the first day I was here we got 5 inches of rain! BUT i had to keep going and although I could barely move at the end of 3 days we had it all framed up under roof and wrapped. I had to get outa here by 8am the last day to be back in NY by1pm to bale hay so i started wrapping the house at 3 am. got that done and made it just in time to start baling hay. from there it was a day here and there, a few days after we framed it I drove down one morning and put in all the windows and doors and then drove home that night. and that was basically our summer. there is still a lot to do, the first floor is basically done except for the trim work. second floor will take some time still. the master bedroom is pretty far along but the master bath is not even started yet. we will just keep chipping away at it as time and money allows.

more pics of the inside.

thanks all. pygmy, we are over in western pa not quite to the 'burgh,,,, its funny you should mention mexicans as of late there have been a bunch of them running around here since they are doing the Marcellus gas studies. belo, there are not many places in the camp that some mount doesn't have an eye on ya i would imagine by the time we are done hauling mounts down here there will probably be no place that is not covered.

loaded up yesterday and headed to camp. snowed all the way from rochester to camp in pa. took a little time loading up this trip between all the thanksgiving supplies and some of my deer, fish and duck mounts we had my truck full and Judy's crossover full. by this morning we had about an inch of snow on the ground which gave a nice winter background for the camp. since mother nature decorated outside it was time for me to spruce up the inside. these are in the stairway, notice the buck at the top of the picture has a double white throat patch, i had never seen one until I killed this buck last year.

do more scouting than hunting. keep what you see to yourself or between you and your duck hunting partner. don't post locations online, there are tons of cyber scouters out there that just love to steal info and spots. pay attention to what your seeing, what I mean is how are the birds coming and going, how are they setting, what numbers are there, time of day etc. and set up accordingly. if there are only a small number of birds don't rig up a couple dozen decoys as its not going to look natural, this is especially true with puddle ducks, divers are a little more forgiving and generally we rig big for the divers. learn to identify ducks before you shoot, there are different limits on a number of species, migratory birds fall under federal rules and regulations and generally carry a hefty fine even for mistakes. also make sure to have your duck stamp and hip number on you as well as only non toxic shot. understand your limitations, if you don't have a boat or dog to retrieve then you need to limit yourself to area's you can wade with waders to retrieve downed birds. to shoot birds and not have a way to retrieve them is also an fineable offense by the dec or feds, its called wanton waste. its not a cheap sport to get into, everything from waders to decoys its all expensive, if you really get the waterfowl bug you would be surprised how much money you can spend,.... I wouldn't even want to venture to guess what I have tied up in waterfowl gear, not even including the duck boat and motors, just decoys, blinds and other gear. try to find someone to hunt with, but be forewarned waterfowler's are VERY secretive of their spots, very few if any will give up their spots and IF you get invited on a hunt even on public waters do NOT ever go back there without them,,, its an honor code amongst waterfowler's. you can learn how they rig and set up but if they take you to their spot that's what it is, THEIR spot, yes others may hunt there but YOU didn't know about that spot before they took you there. like I said its just an honor thing. what I mean is if someone takes you to xyz point on Seneca lake that doesn't make the whole lake off limits just don't go back to that point no matter how good the shooting is or was. believe me if you go back and they happen to show up or find out you went there its going to be an ugly conversation. good luck and hunt safe. remember the life jacket law went back into effect on November 1st.

4 am sunday morning seemed to arrive too early, I guess that happens when you don't go to bed till 1 am. I got started polyurathaning the stairway walls, had to get the walls done so I could start trimming out windows. even had the grandkids working this weekend. archway wrapped and trimmed. living room windows. I asked Joe (nyantler) if I could copy his window trim idea but then decided that I would just do regular trim. I do appreciate the approval to copy your idea Joe but I just didn't feel right to copy it even though you said it was ok. hallway/landing window stairway window. master bedroom

well with fishing season winding down we have been able to run back and forth to camp to do some work. its tough trying to get everything done with only a day or 2 here and there to get work done. new heat system for the entire camp, i had everything done except for the vent and fresh air intakes plumbed. once I had the heat on through the entire camp it was time to open the archway to make it all one place,,,,, was going to be nice not having to walk all the way around to get into the new addition. pine finished on living room wall around the archway. started laying the hickory flooring from the existing hickory flooring and carrying it out into the new addition. progressing into the new room with the flooring, I had to back lay almost 8 feet of flooring to carry the flooring throughout the entire first floor. entrance way by saturday night I had a good dent in the flooring,, couldn't hardly move by midnight but I had almost 400 sq. feet of flooring down... Ziva thinks the new flooring is pretty nice.

aside from the normal if the truck goes I go attitude our dog Ziva thinks she is human,,, or at least acts that way. absolutley knows where Mcdonalds is and what the yellow arch's are. 2 plain hamburgers and a vanilla ice cream, the real kicker is you have to hold the hamburger and when takes little bites. then she takes 10 minutes to lick up the ice cream. she always sits flat on her butt. today whe was setting off the seat sensor so I buckled the seatbelt and she looked at me got up turned around snaked her head under the belt turned back around and set there with the belt across her chest and I swear it almost looked like she was grinning. when she sleeps she has to have her head on something, my shoes, boots, coat, or if in bed on the pillows and if on her own bed she has her own pillow. I think she is going through duck hunting withdrawls.