reeltime

if you are going to state numbers make sure you tell the whole story. prior to 1986 the reported numbers were ACTUAL reported kills and we all know how few actually report their kills. also prior to the implementation of the more than 1 deer a year in the late 80's early 90's it was a 1 and done state no matter how many extra stamps you had. now its 1 antlered tag and whatever antlerless tags folks get and dmap so folks can take multiple deer per year. http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=625882&mode=2 back in the mid to late 80's also began the rapid advancement of hunting gear and information, thus making hunters more efficient at killing deer. everything from more comfortable tree stands ( and Safer) , Far better camo patterns, trail camera's, and the list goes on. late 70's to late 80's early 90's in most of the state the deer population was certainly excessive, the roads were littered with deer carcasses, the deer damage reports were rampant, and the obvious over browsing was evident in many of the county's of the state. The buck to doe ratio was so far out of balance it was not even funny, we could take a trip around our "block" which was about a 7 mile trip by road and we would see well over 100 deer. seeing 100 + deer the first day of "buck" season was not uncommon from each member of our camp. I can remember 1978 I set from dark to dark in a stand ( I had already shot a deer in archery so I was done) I counted 187 deer, biggest group was 47, not 1 buck was seen all day but obviously people were seeing bucks because it sounded like world war 3 all day long. do you follow the unified sportsman of pa by chance?

there never was an over population problem in Pa other than "pockets" back in the 70's 80's early 90's?

doc, true the biologists set the numbers, their goal was to drop the numbers quickly because there was a vast over population problem. they achieved that goal and have since tried to sustain a better carrying capacity number but again trying to do so over a vast variation of habitat is not the right way to do it. it needs tweaking but they seem to be slow to do so although they are dropping antlerless allocations this year. they achieved their goals so quickly in Pa simply because of hunter accessibility to open land whether it be federal, state or private. here in NY as most are aware there is a ton of posted land whether its posted for just family hunting, leasing, or people that just do not allow hunting period. Deer learn quickly where they can go and not be harassed. for the most part about 300 days a year the woods are basically void of human scent then all of a sudden the woods are filled with human scent the first day of gun season, deer will change their patterns quickly to avoid humans in the deers house, older deer already know where to go and often times get there before it even gets light. the hunting heritage and just shear numbers of hunters and other than a few areas being shotgun/bow/muzzleloader quite a large portion of the state is and always has been rifle. a combination of all those parameters equate to a very good chance at a higher deer kill. even here in NY the southern tier counties that have allowed rifles for a number of years now that had high dmp numbers those first few years had high kill rates and from what I hear people are noticing a decrease in deer numbers. I know from personal observations that I see less deer throughout those counties during my travels and hunts there. there are still deer there but not near the numbers as were there 15 years ago.

yes hunters did as the biologist wanted.... they killed deer by the thousands. bragged and yucked it up all the while doing so. Its not rocket science, you kill doe you are going to affect the populations, but people had tags and they HAD to fill them. If people here shot doe like they do in pa ny would be seeing the same decline. As I said SOMETHING had to be done, the carrying capacity was way over where it needed to be, and by your words the forest canopy has more to do with forest regeneration than deer, in one respect that's true it does but while trying to do selective cutting because of over population and over browsing forest regeneration targeted goals were not being reached. Mature forests will not and long term can not support excessive wildlife numbers, farmlands and more populated areas can and will support higher deer density numbers. As I said before I do not agree 100% with how this whole deer plan was done, yes something needed done, did it go too far in some area's yes. my biggest gripe about the whole thing is they made the management areas bigger when in fact they should have been made smaller to better manage to carrying capacity. I find it mind boggling that people could believe with antler restrictions and herd reduction that the end result would be anything other than a lower number of deer killed after a spike in doe kills. A number of factors go into the lower deer kill numbers, 1. obviously lower deer density numbers. 2. no matter what the PGC says the numbers of pa deer hunters is WAY below what they claim. back in the 70's 80's they claim as they do today that a million deer hunters enter the woods the monday after thanksgiving.. I can remember vividly those days and the number of people I saw hunting, lines of cars parked along roads, and the number of pumpkins we saw dotting every ridge, hill and valley.. No matter what the license sales are not every license sale is for deer hunting and the deer hunter numbers are down. hunter numbers are down so kills will likely be down. 3. changes in how people hunt, you see way more box blinds today than I ever saw growing up in pa. nobody had 4 wheelers. todays hunting clothes and insulation quality is far superior than back in the old days so people don't need to move to stay warm. when I first started hunting in the late 70's we always saw people walking walkers move deer , moving deer ended up walking by a waiting hunter. when people go into a blind and set there all day and so does the neighbor and his neighbor and nobody is moving the deer sightings will go down. 4. we as a society have grown to be an instant gratification society, if it doesn't happen as fast as we want we go do something else. it amazes me how empty the woods are after 10 am the first day of gun season. people think they should be able to go out and see 100 deer a day and shoot one by 8 am and be to the local coffee shop by 9 am ,,,,and don't care about any biological impact. 5. not a personal slam to anyone here, but to be brutally honest today's hunters are lazy. they think they should be able to walk in 100-200 yards and have a deer stroll by to shoot. I fully understand that some folks can not physically go any farther than that. but year in and year out the number of 4 wheelers running the woods goes up. your in the deers house, to me running a 4 wheeler through the woods is like someone running it in my house. deer are not stupid. 6. deers age, for the most part 1.5 year old deer are not terribly hard to kill and certainly make up a large percentage of the kill numbers. they make a fairly large jump in survival skills from 1.5 to 2.5 years. from 2.5 to 3.5 there is a significant jump in survival skills. 4.5 and up you better be on your A game hunting those animals. like I said before, some area's and primarily public lands got decimated, no different than public lands here in NY generally hold fewer deer numbers simply because more hunters moving deer means a greater chance that deer is going to go past a waiting hunter. That's why I said the management areas should be smaller, same as they should be here in NY. in many zones you have large city's and towns and vast farmland all in the same zone how can you properly manage a vast difference in habitat and accessibility for hunters.

Gary Alt did not "whack" the numbers down the hunters did, and continue to do. I cant tell you how many times in Pa sites and here on hny people say I didn't see a deer all day and then late afternoon I saw a doe and shot it. Gary Alt "retired" or quit the PGC a number of years ago amongst all the deer management turmoil basically he had his and his family's lives threatened and he decided enough was enough. I would be willing to bet that Gary Alt spent more time in the Pa woods than any of us and understood what he was seeing more than any of us. As the old saying goes hes forgotten more about animal biology than we will ever learn. Did you attend any of the town meetings before the AR/HR began? HR WAS talked about, but all most people seemed to hear was "bigger deer with bigger antlers" Bottom line is they boosted the antlerless license numbers because of need and the hunters filled them and continue to fill them. But herd reduction WAS talked about people just failed to grasp what magnitude they discussed. Did deer numbers need to be trimmed to such low levels in some areas? no, unfortunately public lands got decimated simply because quite a few hunters think thats the only place they can hunt. When this all began in the late 90's the deer herd had been out of control for too long, most people couldn't see the over browsing issues if they jumped up and slapped them in the face. what was being done for years was NOT working something had to be done before there was a complete ecological/biological collapse encountered. Like I said were some areas decimated of deer, absolutely! have they began to try and adjust the allocation numbers, yes. has it recovered fully yet to a complete balance? no. But to some if they don't see 30-60 deer a day its the states fault for killing off all the deer when in fact every person that shot multiple doe's a year are the ones to blame. not gary alt, not the PGC, themselves alone are the cause. Those with vast private land didn't and continue to not allow over harvest to take affect, some areas did and people woke up and have taken back control of harvest numbers on their property. Do I agree with the whole AR/HR program, not in its entirety, The game management units are too large and too hard to control harvest locations and numbers. did something need to be done? yes. It was done and although it may of made it tough for a few years hopefully it curtailed something that would of taken a decade to recover from. We have been under a tighter control in our area and with the antler restrictions and passing on younger legal deer we have some nice deer to hunt along with a very noticeable regeneration of our woods.

be sure of your target and what is beyond it. while true it was the kids first archery deer the father could have waited for a safer shot presentation. no one should pick and choose which safety rules to follow, would this even be open to discussion had he been skyline shooting with a gun? Do the right thing and wait for a clean shot at a single deer. its always better to pass on a marginal shot than to try and push it only to later regret it. with a mentored youth you explain to them why they were not allowed to shoot in certain circumstances. They should understand and accept the reason and if they can't maybe that's the time to reconsider whether its time for them to start hunting. be sure of your target and what lies beyond because once you pull the trigger or let go of the bow string there is no calling the shot back and there are no retakes.

we have been taking some things to camp this spring as well as working on finishing things up. it was looking good till we had to build a new horse barn, which wasn't in the time plans of financial plans, but its basically done and ready for haybales already. we got all the rooms done and beds in by the end of april so we were ready for our group turkey hunt and barn build week 1 may. the youth weekend we got all the holes drilled and poles in the ground before dark, by 8:00 it was dark and I was bored so I went to the wood shop and started building a built in dresser. by midnight the sides, cabinet faces, drawer shelves, and drawers were all cut out. the next morning i got it all put together, sanded, stained and first coat of polyurathane done before we had to leave to come back to NY. next trip got 4 more coats of poly on it and all the handles installed and filled with clothes. Then it was on to the master bath..... got thrown a curve ball...... can we put a washer/dryer in there too??? she had a good reason for wanting the washer/dryer upstairs ( I am NOT big on them on the 2nd floor) soooo we took back the shower and got a different one, and got the shower installed, washer bib installed and all the pine up in the bathroom. medicine cabinet and vanity light up, all thats left is lay in the new flooring, cut in the sink drain and supply's and toilet flange and supply line. so another good weekend of work and everything on the living floors should be done. then its time to finish the basement. built in dresser, I do need to get at light colored wire loom to try and hide the wires. we had some extra room last trip so some more mounts made the trip.

over the weekend we were cleaning out closets and sorting through packed totes to see what could go to the curb and what could go to camp. I hit paydirt in the 4th tote.... 2 grocery bags of legs and a large shoebox full of beards dating back to the 80's. the biggest find was a prize from a contest mike joyner ran a number of years back... it was made by none other than our very own member here on HNY MAYTOM. I took the bags out to the shop and started going through all the legs and started filling the "board" it was a wonderful trip down memory lane while working on it. the top row consists of some extra special sets of spurs including 3 sets of ivory colored spurs. the second row are all 1 1/4"- 1 5/16" the third row are all 1 3/8" - 1 5/8" the only problem is I need a few more of these racks thanks Maytom this will be on display at our camp in Pa. in a few weeks.

d. along with a 1 bird limit in the fall in area's that can support a fall hunt, in the area's where numbers have decreased close the fall season. Pa. going to all day the second half of the season was a terrible move. probably 85-90% of the birds shot after 3pm are ambushed or sniped from the limb. most of the local people around our camp just road hunt, drive around find a bird and maybe get out of the vehicle and hunt it or just shoot it out of the vehicle. different mentalities in different regions of the country but from talking to different folks that are residents of all day states the most common complaint is roost shooting and road hunting.

I get the kennel dip concentrate from Tractor Supply and make my own solution for dipping my gear. most of the area here in NY doesn't seem to be too bad with ticks yet. But in Pa they are heavily infested and getting worse in recent years. I dip all my turkey gear including my vest. for archery I have a spray bottle that i use to just spray on the solution and then spray down with scent killer. I have not had a problem with deer but I hunt pretty high and rarely ever have an issue.

I have hunted pa since 77 as a resident till 87 and a nonresident since, The deer management plan in both pa and ny is based on scientific numbers. is it the right way to manage deer? I don't know but I do know that is what we have to work with. While we all like to see lots of game animals sometimes our own self satisfaction is not in the best interest of the game we like to see. I can remember the "good old days" of pa in the late 70's into the 80's where deer numbers were at an all time high. I am not gonna lie as a young hunter seeing 200 deer on the first day of gun season was great and kept people interested and the constant barrage of shots was astonishing. But while we all liked to see all the deer, it was not in the best health of the herd, generally the deer were smaller in body size, and if someone shot a 110" 8 or 10 point people came from miles around to see the monster buck the lucky hunter shot. deer trails looked like cattle trails in the woods, the browse lines were ridiculous throughout most of the areas in the state I hunted. back in the day it was 1 and done, doe shooting was taboo to many people and many doe licenses were applied for and if gotten were burnt. Finally in the 90's the started the bonus doe tags, again some people got them and refused to use them while some started to realize numbers needed to come down. Basically the deer herd was out of control for a long time simply because of old beliefs and stubborn people. Early in the 2000's the PGC tapped Gary Alt to head up the deer management program and many believed that if he did as well with the deer as he did with the bear program things would look up. The biggest hurdle was gaining the hunters acceptance that this needed to happen. the PGC did a road show all across the state and while some got it others simply saw big antlers and didn't hear about the massive doe kill they wished to achieve. The first 2 or 3 years of the AR program it was just as NY season being it was open deer season, unless you were there you can not even imagine the amount of gunshots the first days of gun season. with the AR and HR (herd reduction) was in full swing and boosted doe license numbers did a darn good job of HR throughout most of the state but most noticeably on public lands. It got to the point that they needed to go back to a split season and cut back on the number of doe tags because in some areas of the state they just about decimated the herd. did something need done? yes, did it need to happen at that level? I don't know, maybe it did to allow the habitat time to recover. What I do know is we have far healthier deer now than 30 years ago, in size, weight, and antler health. Last years decline in numbers has nothing to do with the deer management plan or whether its working or not working or whether people agree with it or do not agree with it. The weather on 2 of biggest days of their season was lousy, rain, high winds. Hunters of today want instant gratification and everything handed to them with little work on their own part. in our area by 10 am the first day the woods were essentially empty, thats not a deer management issue thats a hunter issue because you cant kill a deer setting on a couch, in the local coffee shop or riding around in your vehicle ( even though some people do ) I know lots of bucks made it through last season and deer numbers overall seem to be strong and with fawning this summer there should be a decent herd population by start of season, the PGC just released antlerless allocation numbers and most areas decreased or remained the same for the upcoming season.

headed out friday to camp, wanted to leave early enough to maybe get to a carpet store to get carpet for the 2 bedrooms for the grandkids. got there with a half hour to spare. picked out the carpet and got it loaded up and back on the road. got to camp just before dark in the pouring rain, got everything unloaded and went straight to the basement to get the doors flipped over and get them sanded wiped down and final coat of poly on them. By 9:30 the doors were finished and time to start putting the fan/light combo put together and install the wall sconce in the master bedroom. Saturday was an all out work blitz, i was up and doing some stuff that didn't make alot of noise, finishing up some wiring things and finishing up the cable drops in all the rooms. then down to the wood shop to make the extension jambs for the bedroom doors finally Judy got up about 6 am. and things started happening. first thing on the agenda was getting the carpet down in the 2 bedrooms. then it was time to get all the doors upstairs and installed, trimmed and extension jambs on, and then all the handles on. once the door trims were done we started to finish up trimming the ceilings and doing base trim, got the hall closet framed in and last of pine boards up in the closet. when we quit at midnight we had cut and installed almost 600' of trim. I had hoped to sleep a couple hours then get up and get back at the list, i did wake up at 1:45 am and wanted to get up but there was just no way, so I slept for a couple more hours and then was ready to work. by the time we left at 2pm everything was done on the second floor except the hall closet door and trim and master bath door and trim and the master bath,,, which I guess is now going to be a shower so we save enough space for a washer and dryer... hall closet bedrooms stairway fan/light

couldn't edit last nights post so here is the picture that did not post. Lesson number 2 for papa..... don't try to snag a bite of Gavin's smores pop tart or you get the look.....

deerpassion, eventually those drapes will get changed out to something more outdoorsy. those are drapes Judy had saved from a previous change out. Judy was looking at curtains and blinds,,,,minga they are expensive! we were setting there at the table yesterday morning talking with mom and dad about what work was left to do on the camp before turkey season and its hard to believe that its not even been a year since we broke ground on the addition. one more good weekend and we should be pretty wrapped up with everything except the master bathroom but that will have to wait a bit until we decide on either a tub/shower, shower, or jacuzzi tub. either way its gonna have to be a few months down the road since we have done all of this with cash out of pocket, I do not owe anyone a dime on the camp. .... hey peanut butter and jelly sandwiches are not bad to eat thanks for the compliments, its been a lot of work but its something to have for a lifetime, in time it will be a place to set on the porch and listen to turkeys gobble and watch deer in the horse pasture. I guess we are headed back Friday, gotta try and get the doors finished,hung, and trimmed, finish trimming the hallway, stairway and master bedroom. I also need to get the new horse barn staked out so I am ready for the guy that's going to punch the holes.....the horse barn wasn't in the plans for this year but somehow I gotta make it happen before the end of May.

kp, yes there was 8 longbeards in this group as well as some jakes and hens, by the time i could get the phone onto camera some had got up over the hill. we found one yesterday that Gavin named big beard dragger, he has a beard pushing 14 inches, I have a handful of beards from 11 3/4 - 12 1/2 " and this guys beard is much bigger. when he leaned down to peck the ground the beard was dragging the ground. Gavin says that's the one he wants to shoot so we will have to see if we can put him to bed the night before the youth hunt, if not there's other birds we can try to get on.

2 of the grandkids went with us to help. while Addison was out helping to feed the horses Gavin was "busy" as he called it while taking a break........ so when Judy came up to see how things were going Gavin came back out of his room but he had the cat ate the canary look so judy went to see what he was doing ( why an 8 year old was acting funny)...........BUSTED... seems someone was stockpiling smarties and tried stashing the empty wrappers inside his bedroom slippers. after getting one side of the doors sanded and a coat of high build polyurathane on that side and the jambs before daylight it was time to get Gavin and head out in the snow to scout for turkeys. Lesson number 2 for papa..... don't try to snag a bite of Gavin's smores pop tart or you get the look..... http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a367/reeltime/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-03/20150331_083849_zpsf2wv9rin.jpg

during all the other stuff I got the bedroom doors and door jambs stained and first 2 coats of quick drying poly sprayed on. http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a367/reeltime/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-03/20150330_201434_zpscoswlqna.jpg

then it was time to start putting the hardwood flooring down in the upper landing area and hallway on the second floor.

had a really busy weekend at camp, couldn't leave till saturday morning so we got a late start after arriving about 11 am. did manage to get a lot done but still have more to go but each trip the list is whittling down. got the grandkids rooms done except for carpet and the doors. first floor is completely trimmed out.

barred owl calls will work in the right situations, as will crow calls ( after daylight not like the guy wailing on a crow call an hour before light last year) peacock calls, woodpecker calls, coyote calls will all work in certain situations. I rarely ever use a locator call, I feel birds get wise to hearing a locator call and then after they gobble all of a sudden there is a turkey calling there. when I put one to bed I get into the area in the morning well before light and let it unfold naturally, what I have found in each passing year is that with hunting pressure and predator pressure birds don't seem to gobble much especially when dealing with older mature birds.

big game does make some nice ones. I personally don't really care for ladder stands because I cant get them high enough, they stand out like a sore thumb, and they are heavy and cumbersome to drag through the woods. Give me 2 sets of 20' climbing sticks and a nice fixed position stand and I am a happy camper, I have never found a person in one of my stands, either because they are hidden well or they are afraid to be 30-40 feet up a tree. works for me.

i thought at one time in NY if you used a cane pole you did not need a fishing license, I think it was an old timer that told me that..... I would really be surprised if that were the case.

happy birthday Pygmy.

pygmy, nope our fish here on the big lake in our area are WAY down in numbers, we are lacking decent numbers in 3 year classes. have seen it here before and no doubt the numbers will be back but for now we are traveling for our perch fishing. you are right, tough to beat the table fare value of good cold water perch. I will take them hands down over any other fresh water fish. now all I need to do is get enough free time to get out fishing so I can restock the freezer here and at camp.

Law, while the horses may be outa the barn hopefully people will address their issues, hopefully I provided a few helpful hints for folks if or when they address their issues. I do hope things start to break weather wise for folks that are having problems.