Do a Little Dance

[hunterman7956]

Reality is a bitch !  Was a time there were hardly any cars on the road , now they are  all over the place . Used to be able to park anywhere ,now  good luck finding a spot to park. I guess it all comes down to adaptability ,either we change and go forward or we stagnate and fall by the wayside . Either way the final choice is yours....Hunted state land for years now there is a hunter behind every tree it seems so I adapted and bought land just this year from Geno C  and its really far away, but rather than bitch and moan I chose to adapt and change . There is a saying that fits perfectly for this thread  [ The only thing constant in life is change ].  Cowboy up fella's  !!!

[Doc]

Reality is a bitch !  Was a time there were hardly any cars on the road , now they are  all over the place . Used to be able to park anywhere ,now  good luck finding a spot to park. I guess it all comes down to adaptability ,either we change and go forward or we stagnate and fall by the wayside . Either way the final choice is yours....Hunted state land for years now there is a hunter behind every tree it seems so I adapted and bought land just this year from Geno C  and its really far away, but rather than bitch and moan I chose to adapt and change . There is a saying that fits perfectly for this thread  [ The only thing constant in life is change ].  Cowboy up fella's  !!!

I'm not sure which post you are replying to, but in general your comments are valid. The only problem is that there are a whole lot of people who will never be in a position to buy or lease sufficient acreage at today's prices. And if they can scrape together enough cash to buy real estate, priorities mandate that they keep the old lady happy by buying a residence first. So, it may seem logical to buy hunting land, but it is not that often possible for a lot of people. So a lot of people are relegated to hunting public land. The quality of the hunting experience for these people is certainly far different from what attracts most people to hunting. Many people (most?) don't get into hunting for the carnival atmosphere and the hub-bub that exists in some of these public hunting areas, and I believe that may be one of the many reasons for shrinking hunter numbers. No it's nothing that can be solved, and there are only a limited number of  options available for distancing yourself from the crowds.

 

I do wish there was some way to describe how it was when I first began bowhunting. How posted signs were an actual oddity and you could hunt pretty much anywhere, and even public lands seemed deserted in the bow season. And how I went years before I actually saw another bowhunter in the woods. There  is no way to explain how all that solitude in my hunting and the feelings of being emersed in a semi-wilderness atmosphere was the actual catalyst that got me involved with bowhunting. I'm not sure that I ever would have been all that interested in bowhunting if I had not had those kinds of quality experiences everytime I went out. So yes, the only thing constant is change, and unfortunately those changes are seldom positive or useful. And in some cases there are no options to "cowboy up" and there are many hunters who are simply leaving our ranks and will never understand what the big deal about bowhunting was ever all about.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I saw a very interesting tidbit of data in the 2012 harvest reports. It had to do with overall hunter numbers since 1980, and just down the page was another graph with bow hunter numbers in the same time frame. Here it is. I dont see bowhunters declining, even though the overall hunters are dropping steadily. Relevant to this discussion? Sure is.

 

 

[phade]

Smaller parcel size is more favorable to bow hunting.

 

I bet you could give a clear relationship to average parcel size and bowhunting # numbers...as the size decreases, the bowhunters increase.

 

Also, a bit more personal observations...the big buck trend favors bowhunting imo. Sure, orange army has numbers, but many hardcore people hit the rut with bows.

 

Tough tough tough situation for everyone...xbows, how, in what season, season structure...as people noted, as time goes forward, the options become more scrutinized. No answer is going to please everyone and it's a road we must go down....someone is going to be stepped on in one way or another and someone is going to be happy.

[Doc]

I'm thinking the opposing directions of hunter numbers is just a reflection of the migration of gunhunters into bowhunting. As each equipment change makes the bowseason easier, it all serves as the enabler for this migration. You talk to a lot of bowhunters and you start hearing horror stories about perceptions of safety. I think the other part of this is all the TV shows that bring attention to bowhunting. I remember that bowhunting used to be looked at as an insignificant style of hunting in terms of harvesting any deer, and the odds of getting anything that you might want to actually hang on the wall was never taken too seriously. But today, bowhunters have gotten some deer that has brought on some pretty huge envy from the gun-hunters. In fact it has gotten to the point where we are being accused of thinning out the available bucks before the gun hunters get a chance at them. So it is not surprising if there is a significant migration of gunhunters into bow season. And yes this is another aspect to the crowding of public lands in bowseason. How long it can continue until there is a backlash reaction, I am not sure.

[Doc]

Smaller parcel size is more favorable to bow hunting.

 

I bet you could give a clear relationship to average parcel size and bowhunting # numbers...as the size decreases, the bowhunters increase.

That sounds pretty reasonable. As farmland continues to be chopped up, it gets to a point where gun hunting is no longer an option. And we know that farmland is being chopped up at an alarming rate.

[Five Seasons]

I saw a very interesting tidbit of data in the 2012 harvest reports. It had to do with overall hunter numbers since 1980, and just down the page was another graph with bow hunter numbers in the same time frame. Here it is. I dont see bowhunters declining, even though the overall hunters are dropping steadily. Relevant to this discussion? Sure is.

 

so if bowhunter numbers are increasing; why mess with it?

 

 

 But today, bowhunters have gotten some deer that has brought on some pretty huge envy from the gun-hunters. In fact it has gotten to the point where we are being accused of thinning out the available bucks before the gun hunters get a chance at them.

 

and enter "crossbow hunter"

Edited April 23, 2013 by Belo

[WNYBuckHunter]

so if bowhunter numbers are increasing; why mess with it?

Its not offsetting the losses overall, not even slowing it down.

Now before you try and twist the meaning of what Im saying, Ill head you off this time and say (as I have many times) that I do not believe crossbow inclusion to be THE fix, I see it as a piece of the over all puzzle of stopping the bleeding. Face it, if hunter numbers dont stop the steady decline, the sport as we know it (or even similar to how we know it) is doomed. You have said that you want your kids and their kids to hunt. Well, what we have been doing has a track record of not working. In other words, its broke, we need to fix it.

If crossbows can be used as a gateway for guys to see how great archery hunting can be, and lead them to further challenge themselves by picking up a vertical bow, then why not? If they can be used to help people that dont have the time to be properly proficient with a vertical bow stay involved, why not? If they can keep our older hunters in the field for a few more years, why not?

[Five Seasons]

this must be the 10th time you've accused me of twisting your words, and not once have i attempted to do this. maybe you need to express your point better.

 

Anyhow, I honestly don't see the doom and gloom a lot of you do. As long as you can own land, they will not take away your right to hunt animals on it. In fact many states are increasing permits to help thin the herds. hunting is the oldest form of anything since the dawn of man. Maybe you guys have a lot of PETA friends, idk. I work in an building of 250 and have a deer calendar in my office and have yet to have someone throw paint on me...

[WNYBuckHunter]

LOL, whatever you say Belo, the proof is already in black and white throughout this thread and others.

 

If you cant see the problems that our sport faces, and cant recognize that the number of hunters in this state are going down, then I dont know what to tell you.

[Five Seasons]

tell me how decreased hunter numbers leads to the demise of hunting. that's what i'm interested in knowing. There are still several thousand hunters. If there is only 1 hundred thousand do they ban the sport? And if they do "outlaw hunting" what will be their reasoning?

Edited April 24, 2013 by Belo

[WNYBuckHunter]

Strength in numbers. Its an easy concept. The numbers of hunters become low enough, and the antis are able to push their agendas through alot more easilly because there just isnt anyone with much strength pushing against them. You think that groups arent fighting to preserve your hunting rights and privilege every day? Well they are, just like the antis are out there pushing every day to take it away. If you dont recognize that its going on, you havent been paying attention. Youre starting to sound like the same people that said "HAVE THEY TAKEN YOUR GUNZ AWAY YET?"

 

Either that or you are so greedy that you want there to be less hunters in the woods so its better for you, consequences be damned.

[phade]

You two should get married. You bicker better than me and my ex-wife did.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Sorry, I have a habit of calling people out when they say something stupid. It just so happens Belo does it alot.

[phade]

I think it's just two people on either side of the fence and no swaying, regardless of effort, is going to pan out.

 

 

 

 

[Five Seasons]

Sorry, I have a habit of calling people out when they say something stupid. It just so happens Belo does it alot.

 

 

[WNYBuckHunter]

or Belos gonna say something dumb....

 

It has nothing to do with me being a "hater", you just cant admit to it when youre wrong.

[Doc]

tell me how decreased hunter numbers leads to the demise of hunting. that's what i'm interested in knowing. There are still several thousand hunters. If there is only 1 hundred thousand do they ban the sport? And if they do "outlaw hunting" what will be their reasoning?

Belo- You of all people should be aware of what kinds of negative things can happen when people are in the minority or refuse to support the organizations and activities that they supposedly feel passionate about. Support means numbers. Numbers mean power. Power means control over how you want your activities conducted, regulated, and maintained When you lose that control, there are plenty of other people waiting on the sidelines to take advantage of weaknesses. You've seen it happen.

 

Of course I don't believe that crossbows will even register a blip on the over-all hunting numbers. They may serve as a conduit that shifts hunters from gun season to bow season, but in terms of adding over-all hunter numbers ..... I doubt it. But I will say that we cannot and should not under-estimate how serious this problem of shrinking hunters is. Don't belittle the problem. We can't afford that kind of apathy. As we continue to lose hunters, we continue to become politically irrelevant. With animal rights people gaining in numbers, resources and influence in government, hunter declines are the dreams of these people and they certainly know what to do with any advantages that we hand them.

[Five Seasons]

Doc, you know that I realize this and understand the concept very well. I just don't see our small numbers decline as an epidemic. I don't believe we're hemorrhaging hunters. A small decline (probably the result of the economy) doesn't mean the world will end. If we do start losing hunters at an alarming rate, then fine. But until then I don't believe crossbows will "help" any cause. Again, the stats posted show bowhunter numbers increasing, which would make one wonder why are we losing gun hunters? And what will legalizing crossbows do to help the gun hunter numbers?

 

I would be pissed and would march on the capitol if we lost our gun season. But you wouldn't see me burn some sh!t to the ground until they messed with my bow season.

Edited April 24, 2013 by Belo

[WNYBuckHunter]

So a loss of @ 200,000 hunters since 1980 is menial? Remember, those numbers are based on license sales, and you have to buy a regular season license to bow hunt, so bow hunters are included in those numbers.

[Five Seasons]

listen, we all have our opinions on hunter numbers. One thing we can all agree on I hope is that hunting has changed in NYS. Some areas have seen an increase, others a decrease. Farms are disappearing, sub-divisions are popping up. Technology has made our society lazy. We have a society that now watches youtube clips instead of hour long tv dramas. We need instant gratification. There has been, and always will be an anti-hunter society. There are even people out there who worship dead trees

 

What did all the anti-gun people say when they made their pitch? We are not going after hunters. Why? because they realize hunting is a part of our history. That it is necessary to control populations. I think PETA would rather fight the killing of whales by the Japanesse then the upstate NY deer hunter.

 

Now lets talk population of upstate NY (not including NYC).

put in your county and see that people are leaving this state, not coming to this state http://www.forbes.com/special-report/2011/migration.html

or even better is this article http://www.empirecenter.org/pb/2009/10/empirestateexodus102709.cfm 1.5 million people have left from 2000 to 2008 and you think 200k hunters in 20 years is bad?

 

Finally, I'm a hunter advocate. I want to maintain our tradition and past time. But times have changed, culture has changed and I hate when a company or sport feels they HAVE to adapt to bring up their numbers and they end up changing so much they ruin the very thing people love.  Football is dancing this line right now. They're taking the violence out of the sport for player safety. How far can they go before we realize they've taken away everything we love about the game?

 

I'd rather there be less hunters and for hunting to stay the same, then for us to bend over and change how we do things to incentivize the younger attention span deprived generations into joining the sport. You're either a hunter or you're not. You can kill or you cant. You love it or your dont. I do believe that some things must be changed and we must adapt in some areas... but I want to make sure we don't go so far that it's no longer the pastime I love.

[WNYBuckHunter]

"I'd rather there be less hunters and for hunting to stay the same, then for us to bend over and change how we do things to incentivize the younger attention span deprived generations into joining the sport."

 

Well, see, thats something we will not agree upon. I do not want to see this sport weakened to the point where the antis get their way, or we become like many places in Europe where you can only hunt private reserves. I do not see the addition of a special season here or another form of what boils down to the same type of weapon there as bad things. I am willing to adapt to make sure that the sport continues for all of us, and future generations, not just myself. I want to see the younger generations brought into the fold more than they are now, and help them see the benefits of getting their eyes off of a video game screen. I do not believe it is their fault for being lazy, or not getting outside, its their parents that are too consumed with themselves that are at fault. They learn from what they see and are taught.

 

I see anyone not willing to bend for their own benefit as greedy and short sighted. Sorry if you dont like it, but I will call people on it when I see it.

 

I know about the population loss in NY, and it still doesnt change the fact that I see a loss of 200K hunters as significant. BTW, theres no "opinion" on hunter numbers, they are what they are. They may not be dead on, but they are pretty close, and the kind of loss we are seeing is happening.

 

"What did all the anti-gun people say when they made their pitch? We are not going after hunters. Why? because they realize hunting is a part of our history. That it is necessary to control populations. I think PETA would rather fight the killing of whales by the Japanesse then the upstate NY deer hunter."

 

No, they said that because they mistakenly thought people that arent into guns would go along with it, they tried to soften the blow, and they were dead wrong, just like you are about it. You can buy into that nonsense all you want, doesnt make it correct.

[Five Seasons]

you know what my favorite part about you is? It's that you believe so highly in your OPINION, that they're always fact. Someone is dead wrong, or incorrect etc. Do you ever think that a lot of what we discuss here is opinion? There are no WRONG or RIGHT opinions. Because an opinion is just that. You could help yourself a lot out in life by being more open minded. You don't have to agree with me, but it'd go a long way if you avoided using matter of fact statements. Very few things in life are fact. Even surveys have room for error. I don't know, maybe it's just where I'm at in my career or the profession that I'm in that changes how I look at life and debate topics. But I never once on this board have called someone's opinion wrong or that my own opinion as fact. Sure I'm very stubborn in some areas and I will argue till I'm blue in the face. But it takes a special person to walk around like their sh!t doesn't stink and that everything they believe is right. I work with people like this. Nobody likes them.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Its my opinion, of course I think highly of it lmao. Believe me, I know my stuff stinks, and alot of people dont agree with my opinion. Nothing wrong with that. You need to look in the mirror when you talk about people that think their stuff dont stink.

 

BTW, I say there is no opinion on hunter numbers meaning the number of hunters that are out there is a fact, not an opinion. Maybe we meant different things, but thats what I was talking about. I wasnt trying to say anything about your opinion on what a good number of hunters is.

 

And my last comment in that post is basically saying you are kidding yourself in not believing the threat to our sport exists. Take it how you want to, I dont care.

[BizCT]

Just got back from Aruba. Are crossbows legal for 10/1 yet?