New York State Testing

[growalot]

Bingo...my thoughts as well.....But remember...speaking up is to you and your wife....other than that.... she will be "pinned" and the "institution" will carry that through out her time there  which is not good...believe me...

[Deerthug]

My son is in 6th grade and he took the ELA's last week and will be taking the Math this week.

 

I really don't understand those parents who complain about their child having to sit through 90 minutes of reading paragraphs and answering multiple choice questions. It's part of teaching reading comprehension which they will eventually need to be able to do in their future schooling and more importantly in their lives and in everything else that they do.

 

Although I have told my son that the ELAs do not count toward his grade and that it is a grade for the school and his teachers, I still tell him to give it his best shot.

Why? Because when he gets to the higher grades and he has to take regents or AP tests, he will at least be prepared at least knowing what sitting through a standardized test feels like. I understand that the Regents and/or AP tests are subject specific but the atmosphere is the same. I don't think nor do I remember sitting through ELA tests or the like when I was his age but I wish I did because my first major standardized test was the SATs and then the LSATs. I really did not know what to expect until I sat for them.

 

As far as lying to your students as in WNY's daughter's case, I think that is completely wrong. Be honest with your students, tell them it's a test to see how well the teachers are teaching the students. I would think this would take a lot of pressure off of the kids as well as the parents.

[WNYBuckHunter]

In some respects I agree deerthug, but to take over a month away from a kids real education to prep for a test is insanity. Its easy to see that it accomplishes little, just look at the countries that are among the best educational systems in the world. They dont do this type of thing, and I havent seen any jumps in performance of our system since they have been put into place.

 

I remember when I was young we took the PreSATs either once or twice, a year or so before the real ones, no dedicated amount of prep needed, and I knew exactly what to expect when it was time to take the real tests. Theres no way these kids should have to go through this for over a month each year.

[Deerthug]

I was under the impression that not only do the ELA tests evaluate the teachers and school district as a whole but it also gives parents an idea of where their child stands in terms of their proficiency in certain core subjects like reading, writing and arithmetic. 

 

Why wouldn't you want to know how your child is doing and whether or not they're on track for college and career success, whether their reading and math skills reflect a path that will take them to college and career success? As a parent I certainly would like to know that. If my child does not do well on reading comprehension or basic math, then I would like to know that so I can work with him/her in that area. I would use this ammunition toward helping him become more proficient in the area he is slacking.(of course limited to 7 rounds - sorry couldn't resist)

 

 

[WNYBuckHunter]

I get a sense of where my child stands when I get her report cards, spend time working with her myself and at parent teacher conferences. They were identifying that stuff without these tests before she hit 3rd grade. They identified that stuff when I was a kid before these tests were ever dreamed up.

[growalot]

As far as I'm concerned if as WNYBH has stated that these students were prepped to take what amounts to a teacher evaluation test, then it's total waste of time and does not do what it suggests in the first place.

 

Does this in any way...any way.... give a answer as to whether these teachers are presenting the material to the students in a manner that would show, long term retention of said material? If you say yes, then please explain to me how? Isn't it the point that these students need to retain what they're taught for more than a month?

[Doc]

People ..... I have to back up a little here because I don't have any kids going to school (haven't for a heck of a long time). So I need a little coaching as to the details of these tests. These are subject related questions ... right? Would it be fair to compare them to the old regents tests that we old-timers used to take in highschool? I remember that we spent a whole lot more than just a month preparing for those Regents tests, basicly the whole year was devoted toward learning the basic material that NYS deemed essential for educating the students so that they mastered the material. And then we were tested to see if we learned it. That always seemed like a reasonable way to handle education and to check back through an unbiased source to see that no students were being short-changed by the system or giving false measures of success.

 

Like I say, I haven't got a clue what these tests are like, but if they are curriculum based, it sounds like the old tried and true system of the past. It's just that now it would appear that it is being tried in grade school now .... again, maybe not really all that bad an idea. It really does sound a whole lot less intense than those regents tests that I used to sweat over. And, I and a whole lot of other folks survived it with only a minor amount of trauma.... lol.

 

And if as a side benefit, the test results are being analyzed to see which teachers are pulling their weight and being effective in the classroom, I say that's a good thing.

 

So anyway, if I have the wrong idea of what these test are, and they have nothing to do with expected scholastic learning, I'd like to be straightened out. I truly am out of the loop. Am I even close?

[growalot]

Well there is a big difference...regents test where taken by kids that opted to take regent courses and there were State regent booklets given out  with the intent of the individual student  to be responsible for reviewing the materials...Knowing full well the end results effected your getting into your choice of higher education.... it would, on your premise, be more liken to midterms and finals that all students take...When I went to the Holcomb grade school in Geneseo, we as 6 graders took mid terms and finals.

 

When students are going through intense prepping just before they  take an evaluation test ..on teaching ability ...it voids the premise of the test...How can that not be seen?

[crappyice]

I get a sense of where my child stands when I get her report cards, spend time working with her myself and at parent teacher conferences. They were identifying that stuff without these tests before she hit 3rd grade. They identified that stuff when I was a kid before these tests were ever dreamed up.

Why would you take the word of where your daughter stands from a person you clearly do not respect as per your other posts about her lying to the kids, no a ood teaher, etc? Wouldn't, like Deerthug said, you like an "honest" judge of her ability?

The largest problem is the actual test that has been created to test students is based off of a new initiative called the Common Core. Interestingly, we educators have not be privy to or given adequate time to develop curriculum to teach this new Common Core. Your kid are being tested on material they have not been prepared for. And by the way, all the preparing that your kids have been subjected to has been done with previous tests in mind. In other words, they have been preparing for the wrong test!

Here's a sample of some multiple-GUESS questions for you from the 6th grade reading comprehension section:

If the author were to add another paragraph before the final paragraph, what would you expect it to be about? (All answers contained information about the main idea and could have easily been the choice so you are left to figure out what an unknown author should have included)

Even better....what were you expecting to read about in the 2nd paragraph in the article? So just UN-remember what you already read and guess what you think the state wants you to say!

Final example of idiocy..the first title of the first story this year had all the "the"s in the title capitalized...example, The Gopher, The Duck, and The Turle (not an actual title but you get the idea that only the first the should be capitalized). You learn that capitalization rule in about 2nd grade...great example to our kids.

[crappyice]

When students are going through intense prepping just before they take an evaluation test ..on teaching ability ...it voids the premise of the test...How can that not be seen?

I agree 100%! If teachers are teaching to the test for 1 month prior to the test, what have they been doing for the other 6 months? Any administrator that allows that to happen in his/her district should be held responsible.

There is one exception...in thriving schools, many teachers are pushing their kids to learn real skills and forcing kids to think. Thinking is not allowed on the state test. Spit back responses that state wants. And so, the prepping that is done in high achieving districts is to SLOW THE KIDS DOWN! Don't write engaging, wide-casting attention grabbers for your essay since that is seen as "lack of focus" in your writing. Don't expand upon the text since that is not "relevant text based details"

[growalot]

Then,  as I had already concluded, this entire thing is a "feel good political ploy " and yet another waste of resources,...time and money

[crappyice]

Except no one feels good except of course the test makers who are raking it in! All on our dime!

[Doc]

So, I guess all this hub-bub is more about the content of the tests rather than the idea of testing itself. That makes a whole lot more sense to me now. I have always been a believer in standardized testing of students to ensure that what is being taught is what we think is being taught. And if they want to use that system to check out teachers as well .... why not? After all, student results are a good measure of teacher abilities. But of course the testing has to match the mandated curriculum or it isn't measuring anything. I have to admit that the examples of questions that were given seem like complete nonsense to me.

 

Again, I go back to the system of regents curriculum and tests as what I would consider a good and useful teaching process which includes a yardstick to measure effectiveness of assimilation. I always thought that it should have been expanded to include all students. The info being taught was not just for college-bound students. That may have been the way it was used, but what was being taught was a thorough complement of educational material. And the regents testing was a curriculum based measure of learning achievement. To me that is an excellent process. What this other thing is trying to be, is still a mystery to me.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Why would you take the word of where your daughter stands from a person you clearly do not respect as per your other posts about her lying to the kids, no a ood teaher, etc? Wouldn't, like Deerthug said, you like an "honest" judge of her ability?

The largest problem is the actual test that has been created to test students is based off of a new initiative called the Common Core. Interestingly, we educators have not be privy to or given adequate time to develop curriculum to teach this new Common Core. Your kid are being tested on material they have not been prepared for. And by the way, all the preparing that your kids have been subjected to has been done with previous tests in mind. In other words, they have been preparing for the wrong test!

Here's a sample of some multiple-GUESS questions for you from the 6th grade reading comprehension section:

If the author were to add another paragraph before the final paragraph, what would you expect it to be about? (All answers contained information about the main idea and could have easily been the choice so you are left to figure out what an unknown author should have included)

Even better....what were you expecting to read about in the 2nd paragraph in the article? So just UN-remember what you already read and guess what you think the state wants you to say!

Final example of idiocy..the first title of the first story this year had all the "the"s in the title capitalized...example, The Gopher, The Duck, and The Turle (not an actual title but you get the idea that only the first the should be capitalized). You learn that capitalization rule in about 2nd grade...great example to our kids.

 

So where exactly did I say her regular teacher administered the test or lied to her? I didnt, because her regular teacher did not tell her any lies, or administer the test. In fact, she told me that he had commented that these tests were nonsense as far as he was concerned, and that he would rather be teaching them what would be useful rather than how to take a test.

 

Just FYI, my daughter is in 3rd grade. She reads and writes at a 6th grade level, does 5th and 6th grade math, is in all advanced classes with the exception of social studies, which is her weak area. She has never received a grade below B+ level. I can tell you these things before the standardized tests are even complete. Why? I already told you why. We dont need standardized tests (which she has breezed through so far) to tell us where shes at.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I agree 100%! If teachers are teaching to the test for 1 month prior to the test, what have they been doing for the other 6 months? Any administrator that allows that to happen in his/her district should be held responsible.

 

For the other 6 months, they were teaching the kids what they need to now to complete that grade's expectations, etc. These tests dont even count toward their GPA on any level. You understand that right?

[Pav2704]

So where exactly did I say her regular teacher administered the test or lied to her? I didnt, because her regular teacher did not tell her any lies, or administer the test. In fact, she told me that he had commented that these tests were nonsense as far as he was concerned, and that he would rather be teaching them what would be useful rather than how to take a test.

 

Just FYI, my daughter is in 3rd grade. She reads and writes at a 6th grade level, does 5th and 6th grade math, is in all advanced classes with the exception of social studies, which is her weak area. She has never received a grade below B+ level. I can tell you these things before the standardized tests are even complete. Why? I already told you why. We dont need standardized tests (which she has breezed through so far) to tell us where shes at.

Sounds like your daughter has had some terrible teachers!!!  lol

 

All joking aside, when teachers receive support from parents, most children excel in school.  Unfortunately, that is not the case today.  I believe that changes in society have greatly influenced how well students do in school.  For example, when I was growing up, I would come home from school and complete my homework with my mother.  How many children have a parent home when they get home from school?  How many kids attend a latch key program because both parents have to work?   

[WNYBuckHunter]

Sounds like your daughter has had some terrible teachers!!!  lol

 

All joking aside, when teachers receive support from parents, most children excel in school.  Unfortunately, that is not the case today.  I believe that changes in society have greatly influenced how well students do in school.  For example, when I was growing up, I would come home from school and complete my homework with my mother.  How many children have a parent home when they get home from school?  How many kids attend a latch key program because both parents have to work?   

 

LOL, shes had great teachers so far, plus we work with her all the time at home. She was reading, writing and doing math before she went to Kindergarten. It helps that my fiance has her teaching degree in Elementary Education and has been fostering her desire to learn all along. The kid is a wiz to begin with and we have put everything in place that we can to help her reach her potential. I know that many kids dot get that type of attention and environment. Thats one of the reasons it drives me nuts that they waste their time with these types of things. Give the teachers more time to teach what they need to know, then maybe do something along the lines of entrance exams before every couple or few grades to get a feel for where the kids are at. Then you can see whether teachers are doing their jobs or not. You can trace the kids teachers back and figure out where the strong and weak points in the chain were.

 

Dont get me started on the current practice of bringing the special needs kids into the same classrooms as the rest of the students....

[Elmo]

Another factor to consider is that parents face an uphill battle with their children's peers.  My parents were all over me about my studies but my friends where all out up to no good.  Naturally when I went to college and I was free from my parents iron grip, I partied my butt off.  So equally as important to surround your kids with other kids who are as focused as you want your kids to be.

 

As a side note.  I just got back from a trip to China.  I was talking to one of my tour guides about the school system there.  She told me that college is all free so as long as you're in the top % which is why all the kids are so competitive.  Normal school hours is from 8AM to 5PM up to middle school.  This works out for the parents since their kids will always be accounted for while they're at work.  In high school, kids are in school from 8AM to 8PM.  This is what we're competing against.

[crappyice]

Regarding china, the majority of students receive a 4th grade education and if I have not proven to be within the top % by then, you are released from the educational system. Comparing US educational systems to China is like comparing plastic apples to real apples.

[crappyice]

In the long run, I dont honestly think she will carry any of it forward besides the fact that she was lied to by a teacher. I have already begun to iterate to her that not all teachers are like that, and that most of them have her best interests in mind. I also told her that she will run into those that are just plain not good teachers, and that she needs to speak up when she does.

Oh you said "a teacher" not her teacher...you looking for a new job? New York State Ed can use you to write ambiguous test questions! Thank you for all of your knowledge in all things anyone brings up. Where would we all be without you ever-present wisdom? Oh yeah, thank you also for clarifying how a 3rd graders GPA is calculated. Now I can sleep at night.

I would love to hear where the special ed kids should go, in your HUMBLEST opinion.

Edited April 24, 2013 by crappyice

[WNYBuckHunter]

Oh you said "a teacher" not her teacher...you looking for a new job? New York State Ed can use you to write ambiguous test questions! Thank you for all of your knowledge in all things anyone brings up. Where would we all be without you ever-present wisdom? Oh yeah, thank you also for clarifying how a 3rd graders GPA is calculated. Now I can sleep at night.

I would love to hear where the special ed kids should go, in your HUMBLEST opinion.

Oh good lord, you got your panties in a wad over that? I didnt make an ambiguous statement designed to trick anyone, I stated the facts. Its not my fault you didnt read what I said properly. Excuse me for throwing an idea out there that I think might be better than the system we have that IS NOT WORKING. Whether it would or not, I dont know, never claimed to be any expert, all I can do is comment based on my experience. In my experience I dont agree with your opinion on it. No reason for you to get butt hurt and start throwing out insults.

 

And BTW, these tests do not count toward any student's GPA, including a 3rd grader.

[growalot]

Heres why the system doesn't work IMO

 

1. society to start with

   A. ppl taking a good idea to help "save" a "group" of kids and taking it WAY TOO FAR

 

2. Technology

   A. It went from a tool to aid in learning to replacing THINKING

 

3. Jobs

   A. this country has in good part  has two parents working 40-70 hours a week. Or just  one parent working those hours ...to make ends meet

 

4. Come on...No on can possible say Media doesn't have a part to play

 

 

[Pav2704]

Heres why the system doesn't work IMO

 

1. society to start with

   A. ppl taking a good idea to help "save" a "group" of kids and taking it WAY TOO FAR

 

2. Technology

   A. It went from a tool to aid in learning to replacing THINKING

 

3. Jobs

   A. this country has in good part  has two parents working 40-70 hours a week. Or just  one parent working those hours ...to make ends meet

 

4. Come on...No on can possible say Media doesn't have a part to play

Couldn't agree more!!!

[crappyice]

To add to Grow's list I would include:

College- it is no longer a goal to achieve after hard work in schools. It is now an expectation for all kids to go to college. Somehow parents today feel that each and every child is capable of college level learning and the occupations associated with it. When did that change? Now,in many districts, C students do not exist. They have some Learning Disability to excuse their lack of understanding or work ethic. Accommodations are granted Neil the grades climb to the B level...then they are ready for college. Very frustrating.

I can't wait until some kid gets fired for not producing his work on time. He should sue the New York State Ed department for graining "extended time" throughout his education experience. Colleges are now accommodating special needs too!