Hunter safety

[First-light]

So we have had a few threads on hunter safety. A hunter died this year from being shot by his good friend. I took the safety course a long time ago and have only heard recently from my niece and a friend what the course is all about. My niece said they taught more survival skills in her class than anything else. My friend is in the military and said it was a complete bore. Now there were things that were useful to him but the amount of time in class and what was learned was really a waste of time. I have been thinking and I believe Doc brought this up about really showing what these firearms are capable of doing. Examples to make your stomach turn. Maybe more emphasis on game identification in certain situations. Wearing of BO at all tmes. I was riding home tonight on the LIRR and they had a poster showing a crushed car by a train at a crossing gate. Wait at the gate is what it said. Kind of the same thing here in the woods, identify first, and there is no good by! I don't know how these courses are run these days, Bubba can chime in here,

but maybe a new approach is needed. Just a thought.......

[burmjohn]

I agree 100%. Problem is the people making these bad decisions are those that took the course 10 plus years ago.

They should be stressing safety and go over the basic rules like sunrise and sunset, identity target and beyond, etc.

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[bubba]

The unfortunate part is as an instructor, I have to follow the state curriculum.  This state is one of the safest as far as  these incidents go.  NY state pushes the fact we are one of the safest, and I doubt you will see them back peddle and say we need more intense safety courses.  And honestly even if it was increased, you are going to have these incidents.  A person can sit and watch all these videos and still do something stupid. The other big problem is the quality of a lot of instructors.  Passing the course is supposed to be three fold.  Getting a passing grade on a written test is only part of the criteria needed to pass the course.  A lot is based on class participation as well as  hands on work to include loading and unloading all different actions, safely handling firearms crossing a fence one and two person, range time and a lot of one on one questions during these activities.  In most cases, if a person passes the written part, they are given  a certificate.  In theory a person could come and sit in the back of the class say nothing during the discussion times and do the minimum to squeak by get a 100 on the test and get a certificate.  By no means does that make them safe.  The same as taking a road test driving a few blocks with an examiner getting a license and that night going out hot rodding and killing someone.  There are actually videos that should be used that do show the results of unsafe gun handling.  They are available from the state for instructors to use.  I use one called the last shot at every class.  It is the first thing that I do.  it is based on a true story that happened NY where a 14 year old lost his life in one of these very incidents by his friend.  The bottom line is you can instruct until you are blue in the face.  You have no control over what a person does after they leave the class. You teach principles safety rules and do your best to hammer them home.  You can not teach morals ethics and legalities.  You can see that on here honestly.  The posts from some I see on here, if  they invited me to hunt, I would turn them down as I would prefer to have my head on my shoulders when I was done for the day. 

 

It is true that the people who complete the course are statistically the safest hunters we have.  But remember the course is only part of that.  The youth are to be mentored and hunt with someone after they take the course.  These are the people who should reinforce what we teach.  If you have  a poor mentor who lets you cut corners says oh don't worry about that it is ok to do it this way and quite honestly do not follow the rules themselves, who do you think the youth is going to listen to?  Some guy who he spends a couple days with or his family member? We have had kids say in class especially when the DEC is there say well my dad doesn't do it that way.  Also statistically when these incidents happen, almost all of them the person is in your hunting party.  Think about that.  And almost always there is some illegal activities going on such as shot after legal hours, one dmp in the group and everyone trying to be the first to shoot something to fill it.  Competition and peer pressure are big factors.  Last year in NY state there were two fatalities of this type during hunting season.  The two examples I just cited were how they happened. Granted two are too many, but in the big picture, that is minimal compared to the number of people who hunt.  How many times just lately have posters here said there are only a few dec officers, you can do pretty much do what you want.  Does that make you feel safe?  it sure does not me.  Look at the cross section of people on this site.  They are the people we are going to the woods with every fall.  The intention of the course is to get people thinking safety and hunting ethically.  You can teach principles, but you can not teach a person how to think and react in a different situations. I invite anyone who would like to help make a difference become an instructor and do so. 

[First-light]

Bubba,

Thanks for your input that was very well said. I hunt with a small group of 5 people. Maybe as the landowner I will take it upon myself to implement

a refresher for all who gun hunt my property. 10 minutes to go over rules at camp and gun safety procedures. I think I will even go a bit further and print up the list and display it on the back door of the cabin. John your right people who took the course years ago need some refresher. Lets face it there are some who take the gun or bow out once a year. They are not familiar with their equipment nor the woods they hunt in. I will never forget this as a kid of 16. I was invited by my friend to hunt opening day with his father and friends. Night before we are all sitting around and one man is talking about shooting everything that moves. The bush moves I shoot and look later. I was actually frighten by his words. The next morning I faked a stomach ache and headed out when it was light, also in the complete other direction of that man. Hey I'm sure guys out there have some basic rules at camp. I would love to hear the ones that are beyond the basics that you use. Just a thought maybe we can agree on a list and publish it as its own thread to be shared by all. If it saves one accident from happening it would be worth it.

Edited November 23, 2013 by First-light

[the blur]

I say, mandate the course every 5 years.   Too many morons in the woods.

[bluecoupe]

@ bubba:

 

 

Ya know bubba, I just may take you up on that. I'm retired these days and certainly have the time.  So it's not simply a rubber stamp process? You can actually fail people?  I know when I took my bow class many years ago, people were actually missing a 30'x30' set of hay bales at about 30 yards while shooting to get the Fahnestock certificate. They didn't get the special certificate but did "pass' the course.  I asked the instructor about it and he said it was state regs, if they attended, they passed the basic class.  Scary stuff, at least to me. If that mentality has changed I may be interested.

[bubba]

In class there are 4 basic rules that we teach.  They are

 

1. treat every firearm as if it were loaded 

 

2. Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction

 

3. Know your target and well beyond

 

4. Always keep your finger outside the trigger guard until you are ready to fire.  

 

Honestly the one that is broken the most if the finger outside the trigger guard.  But as I said I could train a monkey to follow those rules and people can do so for a demonstration.

 

 

They are posted in my camp.

 

My other rules at camp are 

 

everyone knows where everyone else is.  If you are at camp alone you leave a note where you are.

 

absolutely no alcohol until you are done hunting for the day

 

We hunt by the law and if you do not like that, do not show up.

 

If by chance you do hunt and you do break a law shoot something illegal basically, be prepared to face the consequences.

 

4 wheelers are only used to retrieve a deer or in emergency situations.

 

HAVE fun

 

 

I grill people on the 4 rules.  My cousin who is a few years older than I am came to camp and brought his nephew with him.  His nephew took the course from me 4 years ago.  I started asking him about the safety rules and he was stumbling.  My cousin says to him you should know there. I looked at my cousin and asked him what they were and he could not say either.  I said umm you should know them too.  We reviewed them.  Honestly by teaching, I find it helps me to stay refreshed.  Anyone who wants to sign up for a class can do so even if they have their certificate. If anyone feels they need it feel free.  I utilize those people to tell how it is. You can also go to the DEC website and do the free online course at your own leisure.  I encourage students to do so after class.  But in my classes at least if you have to retake it, due to losing your privileges, I am twice as hard on you and I do ask you to tell what you did and how you plan to fix it.  

 

One of my best friends in the world has been after me for years  to hunt with him.  Has never asked to come to camp and hunt, due to the rules. he is always after me to go with him to places he hunts.  I always turn him down. This year he asked why. I said well honestly i do not feel safe around you in the woods and I do not condone the way you hunt.  We are still friends, but I will not hunt with him.  

 

 

Edited November 23, 2013 by bubba

[bubba]

I have failed people due to me not feeling they are safe. When we shoot, it is not mandatory to hit the target.  Marksmanship is not mandatory safe gun handling is.  same with archery it is not mandatory to hit the target, we again teach safety and ethics.  Part of being an ethical hunter is to strive for clean one shot ethical kills.  In order to do so, you need to practice shooting and get proficient.   I can not fail someone if they do not hit a target.  I can fail someone of they do not safety handle a firearm or do not seem like they are grasping the concepts.   Unfortunately there is a lot of rubber stamping.  I have worked with other instructors who have passed students who actually bombed the written test.  granted some people are not good test takers.  but you can sit with them and ask them questions, and they know the information.  But these two had no clue.  But they were a buddies kids.  Well after class we have a report to complete to turn in.  I asked him not to put me on the report and said I would not sign as I did not want to be associated with that class.  The next time he asked me to help with a class, I was busy.  Steve send me a pm and I will let you know how to get started.

[bluecoupe]

That's mainly why I'm not in the woods this year.   Some yahoos who have no respect for anything got permission to hunt the property I hunted.  I'll pass. No deer on the planet is worth risking hunting around them.  I've shot my share of deer in my life, if I never shoot another, so be it. I like seeing the wife.

[jjb4900]

http://homestudy.ihea.com/

I found this online course/test on DEC's Website.

[bluecoupe]

Yeah, the instructor said that marksmanship wasn't a requirement other than the special area certificate. But missing a 30'x30' target at 30 yards seemed REALLY scary to me... I know, rules is rules....

I have the application, I just haven't filled it out and sent it in. I'm on the fence as I don't do "politics" very well.  I'll have to think on it further. The classes are probably pretty much done until springtime anyhow.

[bubba]

I say, mandate the course every 5 years.   Too many morons in the woods.

 

taking a class every 5 years will not get morons to go away.  Become an instructor and teach all the refresher classes you want.  I prefer to teach new students and get new hunters out. Above, I explained why that will not work. 

[bluecoupe]

http://homestudy.ihea.com/

I found this online course/test on DEC's Website.

 

Have that as well as the application, but thanks for the pointer.

 

[jjb4900]

It's like anything else, you can try to educate all you want, but "accidents" are still going to happen...............just look at all the media coverage and effort put into fighting drunk driving and that still happens way too frequently.

[First-light]

Thanks for the list Bubba!

[growalot]

Well maybe the DEC needs to send the instructors....and a few ECO..... to a class to teach the class...and you should be hired to teach Bubba...

 

I took my course...the only ppl to touch a gun was me and a couple of others out of 20 ppl...and the weapon was handed to us loaded to shoot skeet...the bow course...nothing on the bow ...nothing with shooting...When I sat with the kids...it was the same thing except...no one touched a weapon in either course...

 

Oh the best part was...impossible to fail...you corrected your own test and the answers were given to you...The instructor never knew who had done well or bad...made no difference...and it was the same for the kids  course...a Joke...HHmmm the fire/ambulance alarms just went off...I'm glad I'm in the house

[bluecoupe]

That was what I experienced as well when I took the bow class. I'm not sure I could stomach that. I'd want to be fairly confident someone had a clue what they were doing before passing them. It's my understanding that, due to lobbyists from the equipment manufactures, that the State is more of a rubber stamp process; if they stay the whole time - they pass. 

[shawnhu]

Yeah, the instructor said that marksmanship wasn't a requirement other than the special area certificate. But missing a 30'x30' target at 30 yards seemed REALLY scary to me... I know, rules is rules....

I have the application, I just haven't filled it out and sent it in. I'm on the fence as I don't do "politics" very well. I'll have to think on it further. The classes are probably pretty much done until springtime anyhow.

I'd really like to see a marksmanship portion added to the safety course. Some of the folks out there can't hit the side of their own barn if their life depended on it, and that's a safety concern. Too little emphasis is given on the safety aspect of hitting where you aim.

If mandated, I wouldn't expect hunters to need to do refresher courses every 5 years, but just like the safety certificate, every hunter must certify at the 50-100 yard range and qualify. Same goes for bows, maybe out to 30. This would put a financial burden on NYS, but will also drum up business for local ranges.

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[bubba]

Well legally the 11 year olds can not touch a firearm in NY anyway.  We use the laser guns for them.  Eco's come out of the academy certified to teach.  None of them know how and they only teach their part that they have to do about laws etc.  I was asked to become a master instructor in my area and I passed.  I prefer to spend my time teaching students not instructors.

[the blur]

Experienced hunters still don't know the laws.  4 guys come over to inspect my harvest, and started accusing me of taking an illegal deer.  The spikes were 2" in an AR zone, and I had to explain to them 3" spikes and under, goes on a DMP tag, and that's why the DMP tag asks for the sex.

 

So they turned around and said, oh, let's go shoot some spikes.

 

Therefore, I advocate a refresher class for everyone.

[jjb4900]

Experienced hunters still don't know the laws.  4 guys come over to inspect my harvest, and started accusing me of taking an illegal deer.  The spikes were 2" in an AR zone, and I had to explain to them 3" spikes and under, goes on a DMP tag, and that's why the DMP tag asks for the sex.

 

So they turned around and said, oh, let's go shoot some spikes.

 

Therefore, I advocate a refresher class for everyone.

does the course even go into fine detail like that? I don't think it does........

Edited November 23, 2013 by jjb4900

[the blur]

Knowing how to tag is deer is fine detail ?   That is pretty basic stuff.

[jjb4900]

Knowing how to tag is deer is fine detail ?   That is pretty basic stuff.

it's not in the course.......they'd have to devote a full day just to deer hunting and since deer hunting regulations vary across the state, it would be impossible.

[bubba]

We do not teach thr laws or marksmanship. It is called the.hunters safety class for a reason. Not the hunters legal or marksman class. You are asking a lot from volunteer instructors when a class is minimal 10 hours now.

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[bluecoupe]

Well, that's a good point bubba and a distinction that I hadn't really thought about until your post.