Seneca White Deer in Danger.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Guys and Gals.

 

I sat through a brief presentation last night. I knew the deer existed and have seen a few at the fences but was un aware the property is in danger of being opened and developed. That will mean the end of the largest White whitetail deer herd in the world.

 

I am not sure if all of you even know about the Seneca White Deer. They are products of a recessive gene (not albino). They developed inside a 10,000 acre enclosure at the Seneca Army Depot. The depot was constructed in the 40's and the entire area fenced in. Through the Cold war it housed a large compliment of Nuclear weapons. Fast forward to today.

 

The Army is done with it and clean ups have taken place. It is being turned over to the IDA (Industrial Development Agency) for that county. They want it developed and put on the tax rolls. I feel that if ever there was a area that needed to be managed and preserved it is this one.

 

I am including a link to a groups web site that is trying to gain traction, bring political pressure and find some way to  have the State but it and manage it, either through DEC or the Parks Department. I know everyone if focused on the Unsafe act with their letter writing campaigns but this truly is a resource that once it is gone us, our kids and grand kids will never see the likes of it again. It should be maintained, managed and available to the public to view, not only the White deer but the other wildlife that currently calls the Depot home.

 

There are funds available to do this. The same 'Pot" that was used to purchase the 8,000+/- acres from Monroe County surrounding Hemlock and Canadice Lakes.

 

 

http://senecawhitedeer.org/

 

 

 

 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I would agree to save if possible but at the very minimum i would demand that the deer be relocated to some state parks across the state and then put on the no kill list for awhile. I have seen a couple nice pied on Letchworth over the years. It would be cool to see some solid whites runnin around on the parks!

[Marion]

I want to hunt them! Screw developing the land, let it be for hunting but very limited. Actually after looking at some of the pictures idk if I could bring myself to shoot one, they are too beautiful looking

Edited January 16, 2014 by The Jerkman

[Culvercreek hunt club]

From what I have read and been told their survival rate is very low in the wild because of their coloration. I know the ones I saw were like neon signs in March with no show and no leaves. Kind of like snowshoe hares that think they are hiding when there is no snow.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

From what I have read and been told their survival rate is very low in the wild because of their coloration. I know the ones I saw were like neon signs in March with no show and no leaves. Kind of like snowshoe hares that think they are hiding when there is no snow.

Hence the No Kill List on the parks they are released on. I was a guest there years ago but was not lucky enough to draw a white tag.  Back then they picked stands for you and they brought you out, dropped you off, you were told not to leave even if you shot a deer.

 Way back then the depot was still a dangerous place for someone to be picking around in some of them bunkers!

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I want to hunt them! Screw developing the land, let it be for hunting but very limited. Actually after looking at some of the pictures idk if I could bring myself to shoot one, they are too beautiful looking

one of the topics that was discussed was IF it was taken over and managed there would have to be a limited hunt to maintain acceptable population levels. In the 50's the population soared in the Depot to 2,500 deer (normal phase and white) imagine 2,500 deer on 10,000 acres. That is one deer for every 4 acres. I could see it as a cheap lottery so everyone has a chance. Could have a cheap preference point lottery. Non-refundable that helps pay the costs of the place. Outside of hunting the draw of the deer would be amazing. Check out the site. These guys did tours to see them in (I think) 2006, 2009 and 2012. In 2012 it was unadvertised tours and they did over $100,000 and I think they said 3 weekends.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Personally I have no desire to shoot one but I sure would like access in there to see them up close.

[Doc]

I would guess the only reason that they have developed as a herd is the fact that they have been fenced in and likely have inbred to the point where the recessive gene is being carried from generation to generation. I suspect that the only way to have them continue as a herd would be to keep them contained in the fenced in area. Of course that raises the question as to who would then pay for the maintenance of the fence and who would absorb the value of the property. I think there is a lot more to the problem than is obvious.

 

Yes they could be relocated (a very expensive proposition in itself), but the genetic oddity will soon be bred out of the herd within a few generations as they disperse.

 

I think the idea of a white herd of deer is pretty neat, but there sure seems as though there would be a whole lot of practical problems trying to maintain them.

 

So what are the suggested fixes that this group is proposing?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Hence the No Kill List on the parks they are released on. I was a guest there years ago but was not lucky enough to draw a white tag.  Back then they picked stands for you and they brought you out, dropped you off, you were told not to leave even if you shot a deer.

 Way back then the depot was still a dangerous place for someone to be picking around in some of them bunkers!

Yeah, between the Depot and Griffas I don't think New Yorkers knew how many Russian missles were aimed at us.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

 

 

So what are the suggested fixes that this group is proposing?

http://senecawhitedeer.org/about/futureof-the-depot/

[Culvercreek hunt club]

They mentioned it State Owned with management guidelines and privately run. (we all know how well NY does at anything that resembles fiscal ability). It is currently done in NY with some things. They mentioned one high end Golf Course down by the city. I know it is happening in other States, even with facilities like Prisons. They are built and run privately under the guidelines set by the states.

[mike rossi]

From what I have read and been told their survival rate is very low in the wild because of their coloration. I know the ones I saw were like neon signs in March with no show and no leaves. Kind of like snowshoe hares that think they are hiding when there is no snow.

New genes in the population would have more impact than predation. The fencing isolated animals and allowed the recessive genes to persist in the population. As soon as the recessive animals start breeding with more typical whitetails they will brown up.

 

If this herd was designated as a "distinct population segment" it would enjoy some extra protection. From what you are saying, it sounds like they are not classed as such. Conservation groups petition all the time for these designations, I wonder why not with these animals?

[Doc]

I don't know, maybe I'm somehow missing it. While I am very sympathetic to their cause, their presentation on their site is very long on vision and short on practical details or any defined plan as to who they are expecting to pick up the tab for initial development and day-to-day maintenance.

[mike rossi]

I would guess the only reason that they have developed as a herd is the fact that they have been fenced in and likely have inbred to the point where the recessive gene is being carried from generation to generation. I suspect that the only way to have them continue as a herd would be to keep them contained in the fenced in area. Of course that raises the question as to who would then pay for the maintenance of the fence and who would absorb the value of the property. I think there is a lot more to the problem than is obvious.

 

Yes they could be relocated (a very expensive proposition in itself), but the genetic oddity will soon be bred out of the herd within a few generations as they disperse.

 

I think the idea of a white herd of deer is pretty neat, but there sure seems as though there would be a whole lot of practical problems trying to maintain them.

 

So what are the suggested fixes that this group is proposing?

There is public and private money for this. Even more money can be generated from trophy hunting as well as eco-tourism.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

There is public and private money for this. Even more money can be generated from trophy hunting as well as eco-tourism.

There is but without political pressure the IDA has no intentions of looking at anything other than development.

[Doc]

There is public and private money for this. Even more money can be generated from trophy hunting as well as eco-tourism.

Where are you getting this? You actually found something that directly stated that this proposal is already funded with public and private money? I couldn't find anything of the sort on their web-site.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Doc, I believe he means the State has funding it CAN use for cases such as this. Not that it is proposed or earmarked for this. The same "pot" that funded the Hemlock Canadice purchase. But this one does not have the Nature Conservancy support because is isn't a natural/pristine enough setting like Hemlock is

[mike rossi]

One familiar example is Pitman Robertson Federal Funds - but even those are not "ear marked". The DEC would have to submit a grant application like they would any other time they access PR funds.

 

And yes, there are other funding programs too - some of them which "ear mark' funds.  If the Seneca herd was classed as a DPS it may be possible that there are in fact funds ear marked for DPS or otherwise "listed" species. Without any designation, it may be that this herd is being considered  only a color phase of a very abundant and widespread species - the whitetail.

 

Non government organizations have their own substantial budgets and can also apply for grants with matching dollars to leverage federal funds, with or without the DEC. For example, Pheasants Forever, one of the smaller organizations, has an annual budget of around $60 million dollars.

 

There is money out there - its the job of a biologist, whether employed by the state or federal government or by a non government organization, to find that money and/or develop funding strategies.

 

 

[Doc]

One familiar example is Pitman Robertson Federal Funds - but even those are not "ear marked". The DEC would have to submit a grant application like they would any other time they access PR funds.

 

And yes, there are other funding programs too - some of them which "ear mark' funds.  If the Seneca herd was classed as a DPS it may be possible that there are in fact funds ear marked for DPS or otherwise "listed" species. Without any designation, it may be that this herd is being considered  only a color phase of a very abundant and widespread species - the whitetail.

 

Non government organizations have their own substantial budgets and can also apply for grants with matching dollars to leverage federal funds, with or without the DEC. For example, Pheasants Forever, one of the smaller organizations, has an annual budget of around $60 million dollars.

 

There is money out there - its the job of a biologist, whether employed by the state or federal government or by a non government organization, to find that money and/or develop funding strategies.

I don't think there is any doubt that there is money out there floating around unassigned. But understanding that is a long way from supplying credibility that they have any of that lined up for financing their vision. That is the kind of thing that I expected to find on their web-site. Something to show that they have at least a financial plan to carry out what they are asking their perspective members to sign up for. It would appear that they have gone no farther than the "wish-list" phase.

[phade]

Neat deer. Not sure there's much anything can be done other than keeping them fenced in. As noted, past problems with the deer getting our and regular deer getting in dilutes the genetic make-up for white deer.

 

While I think these animals are fascinating, absolutely fascinating, I don't see a practical solution other than keeping them fenced in, and that just seems to go against the grain.

 

If mother nature ruled them out, in large, without fence, then it is what it is when those fences come down.

 

Whether its development or just the removal of fencing...they're going to dissipate.

[SteveB]

Their entire existence is the result of manipulation by man - nothing natural about it.

A nature preserve there would be nice - but man made genetic freaks should have no part in it.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Their entire existence is the result of manipulation by man - nothing natural about it.

A nature preserve there would be nice - but man made genetic freaks should have no part in it.

It is only as man made and genetically freak as blue eyes.

[phade]

It is only as man made and genetically freak as blue eyes.

 

By man-made, I think he is referencing the fencing that allows the gene to prosper. No different than a high fence deer operation in the sense you are keeping certain genes in and certain genes out.

 

It'll only take a handful of generations to remove the bulk of those deer from the wild if the fence were down.

Edited January 17, 2014 by phade

[Culvercreek hunt club]

By man-made, I think he is referencing the fencing that allows the gene to prosper. No different than a high fence deer operation in the sense you are keeping certain genes in and certain genes out.

 

It'll only take a handful of generations to remove the bulk of those deer from the wild if the fence were down.

I understand what he meant, but it sounded like is was concocted by man, This is one of those topics where some people will see the benefit of trying to maintain them while others will see it as no big deal. I enjoyed the ones I saw. From the tours this group ran it appears there are many others that did as well.

[phade]

I understand what he meant, but it sounded like is was concocted by man, This is one of those topics where some people will see the benefit of trying to maintain them while others will see it as no big deal. I enjoyed the ones I saw. From the tours this group ran it appears there are many others that did as well.

 

It poses an interesting debate. Along the lines of high fence hunting. Is it OK for high fence tourism? Especially where keeping them contained to preserve genes is the only premise? I guess they do that in zoos to a degree with white tigers, so there is a precedent.

 

I guess my question is, why not just take a handful and throw them in the zoo and let that place earn some tax revenue if a developer wants to come in and make something of the place? I tend to side with Doc that I just don't see a great explanation of the details that the org is trying to accomplish. It may help if they were to clarify the end game and how it could be funded and handled. The map they layout doesn't exactly scream revenue generation.

Edited January 17, 2014 by phade