Non Lead Bullets For Hunting?

[Curmudgeon]

Out of frustration, I am repeating the question:

 

How does switching to copper because it is the right thing to do makes a ban more likely?

[Mr VJP]

It would seem it wouldn't, but there is the possibility that when most hunters switch to non-lead, the banners may feel there are fewer votes against a ban in that crowd.  That may embolden the banners to push for a ban that would now demand possession of all existing lead ammo be criminalized as well as all lead used in fishing.  They may want to do it because they also fear the future of non-lead ammo isn't insured without a law!

 

Many times ban laws are passed, based on the idea, not many people in the affected community will oppose it.  That's the reason NY went after semi-auto black rifles.  Most NY gun owners don't care about those guns, or the owners of them.  Many of those same gun owners even supported the ban.  And the science proves it will have no effect on crime at all.  Divide and conquer.

 

I see it all the time with the anti-gun crowd every time they claim the NRA does not speak for all gun owners because only a small amount of gun owners are members of the NRA.

 

I believe switching to non-lead may be the right thing to do for big game hunting, but allowing a complete ban on any lead products in the hunting fields and fishing waters would be one more nail in American Liberty's coffin.

 

 

P.S.  Notice the cigarette issue.  Most people have quit smoking and the infringements on smoking have gotten wider.  How long before the desire to ban cigarettes in America actually becomes law?

 

Edited September 5, 2014 by Mr VJP

[Curmudgeon]

Thanks. I will continue to urge everyone I can to use copper in the field and only allow it on my property. I do have better understanding now.

[jesse.james]

All I have in my safe is copper.

[Mr VJP]

No .22 LR ammo in your armory Jesse?

 

 

[jesse.james]

Sadly enough I don't own a 22

[Pygmy]

 

Sadly enough I don't own a 22

  Don't own a .22 ??...That's UN-AMERICAN..!!.. <<grin>>....

[jesse.james]

Yeah thinking about getting a 10/22

[Pygmy]

Good choice..Everybody should have a 10/22..I bought mine about 1970..Wonderful little rifle.. Heck, even my GIRLFRIEND has one...

[jesse.james]

Gun show Saturday. Not sure if I'll be leaving with the 10/22 or a mosin

[Mr VJP]

Get the 10/22.  It will be a lot more useful, and cost much less to shoot.

 

[vlywaterman]

Mr. VJP,

I do understand your concerns with the divide and conquer idea, that as more people volunteer to switch to lead there will be less people to stand up for fighting a ban. But, I think this idea is also one that is killing any kind of honest debate or any progress in our government. At what point do we as individuals do what is right even though we may fear the "slippery slope"?

Some people on this post have mentioned that their stockpiles of ammo will be illegal. I asked a friend of mine in CA who is a hunter, about the CA ban. He is also the person who told me that the state would have done better and had more compliance with switching to non-lead ammo if they had not implemented the ban. He did his homework and here is Ben's reply to my question:

The lead ban is hunting only, based entirely on the bioavailability of lead in carrion.  Lead at gun ranges gets "mined" (a pretty neat process where the soil is stripped and washed and returned.  worth a google search) and there is little evidence of lead at gun ranges causing any major damage to anything other than the occasional quail.  There is also no restriction on private property.   The "slippery slope" in California for some was loosing lead for hunting.  I really dont see it going any further legislatively any time soon.

There are already many ranges that prohibit lead because range operators get lead poisoning frequently.  These are mostly indoor ranges and shotgun ranges though.  Shotgun ranges have the added benefit that they can reclaim steel shot without complicated machinery (think golf cart with a big magnet).  Because of this, some ranges wont let you bring your own ammo, you have to buy it there.  The JROTC has chapters that have stopped using lead for pellet-gun competition due to concerns of giving lead to kids.  The military is phasing out lead in rifle ammo (non-lead has been on the battle field since 2010).   Many police departments train and use non-lead(one non-lead bullet has killed EVERY bad-guy shot with it and is extremely popular due to it's current 100% claim).  Lead is becoming obsolete, and there are guys who are scared that the world they are comfortable with is changing.  I'm not saying it's a landslide of places banning lead from the premises, but people are changing on their own and not looking back.  That is your "slippery slope".

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2010/07/lead-free-target-pellets-part-1/

http://patch.com/new-york/newcity/lead-contamination-forces-closing-of-clarkstown-polic63662f5c05

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/ranges/

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-water-utilities-trust-bans-lead-shot-from-shooting-range/article/3786927

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=98594

This bullet is a popular police bullet, but this isn't the 100% ammo I mentioned earlier (same bullet though)

http://www.policeproducts.com/winchester-55-gr-sinterfire-frangible-p-672.html?manufacturers_id=3

[coonhunter]

How about the simple fact that hunters are still struggling to obtain any hunting ammo if they don't have one of the standard deer calibers. I have not seen a box of .22 shells in over 2 years sitting on a shelf. I hear, if you don't work for a living, and have an ear at the counter, you can get some as long as you are there in the first hour or two. People are still hoarding and or selling for profit around here.

 

I can tell you that I honestly think that this state and country have a lot more important things to worry about than lead ammunition.

[vlywaterman]

yes coonhunter, of course we have lots to be concerned with, not just this state or country, but the world seems to be spinning out of control. And, for me, often the outdoors is the place to get away from all the nonsense. But this lead stuff is something we can affect, to make sure our food is safer, and that there is less collateral damage.

Yes, that is true, I have a friend who has a friend at Dick's, calls him when the orders are coming in, but I can't do anything about that.

For a bit of humor on our Government in action, watch this video of our NYS Senate:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jon-stewart-cant-stop-watching-amazing-ny-debate-over-yogurt/ 

[vlywaterman]

my bad, it pasted wrong, maybe this paste will work:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jon-stewart-cant-stop-watching-amazing-ny-debate-over-yogurt/

 

 

[adkbuck]

In NY state and most of the country carrion eaters are primarily crows, raccoons, opossums, coyotes and raptors (hawks making up the large majority) and all of these are on the increase or at historical highs as far as there population is concerned. Turkey Vultures and Black Vultures in the East are expanding there population and increasing their range. California Condors are the notable exception, they do not reproduce until they are between 6 and 8 years old and produce only one egg every two years. The bird's problems have not stopped and have gotten worse after a almost one year of the total banning of lead ammo in California

References:

http://www.oglethorpe.edu/faculty/~r_donnelly/expanding.pdf

http://rpi-project.org/2011/assessments.php

Thanks primarily to the activism of the NRA and NRA members, the EPA was not able to implement "anti-hunting groups" demands that the agency impose a nationwide ban on lead ammunition. This is still real danger despite soft peddling by some. Most hunters, (myself included) already use some copper, tungsten or steel in our hunting. Many in our society and the mainstream media already marginalize hunters and want to stop hunting do we really need "useful idiot" hunters to help them?

[Mr VJP]

I believe eventually government infringement, via regulation of all sorts, will be what kills interest in outdoor activities altogether.  The hunting and fishing regulations we have now, already require a law degree to understand.  We are not gaining many new outdoors people because of it.  

 

It is a scary experience now to be visited by a warden in the field, because nobody can be 100% sure they are in complete compliance with every regulation in the law book that affects your day afield.  If a warden wants to cite you for something, to be a productive state employee that day, or for whatever reason, he will not have to work too hard to do so.

 

That fear of regulatory authority causes people to shun any activity that puts them in close proximity to it.  In NY, people are constantly being bombarded with all sorts of negativity about firearms and hunting.  Any newbie thinking about taking up the past time of hunting will be quite concerned about making a simple mistake that will get them arrested, heavily fined and possibly jailed.

 

Adding more regulation, on top of an already enormous pile of regulations, is just one more step in the wrong direction for all outdoor activity.

 

Again, I like copper ammo and the fact it is better for hunting and for people.  But, I don't like the door it is opening to authorities to further infringe on freedom and liberty where outdoor activities are concerned.  People may say that's paranoia, but I believe it is just experience.

 

 

BTW, the quote in that picture is from George Orwell 50 years ago.

 

Edited September 9, 2014 by Mr VJP

[adkbuck]

I think our over stepping government likes to create a crisis when non exists to further their agenda which in this case is the elimination of hunting as a first step in the removal of private ownership of firearms. If anyone thinks this will end with the banning of lead hunting bullets, unfortunately it is only the first step.

The total elimination of lead bullets will be closely followed by the reclamation of all rifle ranges for which it is conservatively estimated will cost $2.5 million per range plus recurring monitoring costs of $100,000 per year for a number of years following the reclamation. Fish and game clubs, trap and skeet clubs and gun clubs will go out of business. It will be very similar to the "Climate Change Crisis".

[Mr VJP]

There is quite a bit of evidence throughout history in this land, of government taking a "first step" in controlling something, and then marching forward with regularity, until they achieve total control.

 

Gun control is a perfect example, as is the cigarette issue I mentioned in an earlier post.

 

Once again I feel I need to say, "The government is NOT your friend!"

 

[Doc]

Doesn't it seem that we are constantly engaged in one campaign after the other trying to save what remains of our hunting. I mean when you look at all the hot button issues that keep us scrambling and that multiply daily, they are generally initiated by someone trying to add regulation after regulation to something that always used to be kind of a casual recreational activity. And while it pains me to say it, most of the regulations are added, or want to be added, by fellow hunters. And of course they always have a ready supply of anti hunters to join ranks and help steamroller these cascades of aggravations along.

 

 

[vlywaterman]

"In NY state and most of the country carrion eaters are primarily crows, raccoons, opossums, coyotes and raptors (hawks making up the large majority) and all of these are on the increase or at historical highs as far as there population is concerned."

​I am not sure where your assumption came from about historical highs, some are on the increase, some populations have stabilized and some have decreased, at least that is what I gathered reading your second link,,, the first I could not open.

​And who are the "idiot hunters"? the ones who use copper to reduce the chance of lead exposure in their families? Maybe the ones using copper because it performs better?, maybe the ones that believe the science that some scavengers are suffering and dying because of the gut piles we leave behind?

Should we still be using asbestos for insulation in our schools? That stuff is pretty natural, it was used for thousands of years and only a hundred or so years ago did someone first document a death associated with it. Maybe that is not a good analogy, as it was not government infringing on our rights, not then anyway, but it was banned eventually. What about seat belts? should we be required to have our kids buckled up in our own cars? That is really government interference. Where do we draw a line here? Would or should we have not buckled up our kids just to make a statement?

[Mr VJP]

Ahh, seat belts.  Good point to bring up.  You do realize seat belts were first introduced by the car manufacturers as a safety OPTION, right?  It was the government that took that great safety idea and decided it had to be mandatory.  I'm not saying they aren't good.  In fact you're a fool not to use them.  But look at it today.  First they passed a law saying if you were pulled over for something, a cop could also write a ticket if you weren't wearing the seat belt.  It was a secondary offense, meaning you couldn't be stopped just for that.  Then they decided to push it further and make it a primary offense that you could be stopped for, even if you did nothing else wrong.

 

Plus, the cost of the seat belts in the car are passed on to the buyer of the car.  And now we have automatically controlled locking and retracting 3 point seat belts, with buzzers to warn you to buckle them, and now airbags all over the car to keep you even safer.  It is estimated the average American car has $5000 worth of government mandated emission and safety features that the buyer of the car is forced to pay for.  In 1974, only 40 years ago, you could get a brand new, fully loaded Chevy Monte Carlo for $5000.  Don't argue, because I bought one that year.  Today, that same car is $30,000.  That's also because the value of the dollar today is way down compared to what it was then.

 

Motorcycle helmet laws are a little easier to understand, but I still believe the rider should have the option to wear one, rather than a law making him wear one.  (I can't wait until the government decides we all have to wear helmets in the car too!)

 

That's what worries me about regulation.  It's the insidious encroachment that always follows any power given to authority.  They are never satisfied with a little control.  They always want to take it further.

 

With all of the other problems we are faced with in this country that America needs to address, like the economy, the value of the dollar, jobs, terrorists and war, you would think our elected officials would deal with all of that prior to dealing with this kind of regulatory tyranny.

 

Maybe they do it to keep the masses distracted from the real worries they can't solve.  Classic misdirection to fool the people, just like a magician employs.  Nothing to see here folks, look at that stuff over there.

 

I wonder.

 

Edited September 10, 2014 by Mr VJP

[vlywaterman]

Mr. VJP I couldn't agree with  you more about the seat belts,,, but should the gov have stepped in to require us to strap in our kids? and I too believe that a rider shouldn't have to wear a helmet if he chooses not to. And yes, so many times regulations are put in, "just in case" no one complains because they are not enforced much ,,,yet.

But I ask think so many regulations are put in place because we as a people have lost our common sense, regard for our neighbors, and pretty much most things except ourselves. for example, if you live in a village and have an outdoor furnace,,,, why would you burn your garbage in it? so we have to have a regulation. 

[Mr VJP]

Mr. VJP I couldn't agree with  you more about the seat belts,,, but should the gov have stepped in to require us to strap in our kids? and I too believe that a rider shouldn't have to wear a helmet if he chooses not to. And yes, so many times regulations are put in, "just in case" no one complains because they are not enforced much ,,,yet.

But I ask think so many regulations are put in place because we as a people have lost our common sense, regard for our neighbors, and pretty much most things except ourselves. for example, if you live in a village and have an outdoor furnace,,,, why would you burn your garbage in it? so we have to have a regulation. 

 

 

Regulation should always be the last resort.  We are allowing our liberties and our freedom to be chipped away at and minimized with each new regulation, to the point we have become a big government nanny state.  You're free to do whatever they let you do.

 

As far as the government requiring us to strap our kids in, how much farther has the government gone with what they allow us to do with our kids?  A little while ago a woman was arrested for letting her 8 year old play in the park alone.  The amount of regulation the government has put into effect regarding the rearing of children has become a nightmare.

 

We, as free citizens, have seen enough government abuse of the people, to know by now we have to look at anything the government wants to do with a jaundiced eye and be suspicious of it's motives.  Americans have allowed the government to gain too much control, in spite of the Constitution that was written to prevent that.  We need to start restraining the limits of regulation and then roll back what has already been allowed.  The abuses of the EPA are a fine example of government out of control.

 

Like I've said before, non-lead ammo is fine, but mandating it, by threat of severe punishment, would be another sign we are becoming a police state.

[jjb4900]

as I was driving around this past weekend, it dawned on me that these scavengers are more likely to die from being hit by cars as they dine on roadkill then they do from the effects of lead poisoning......