Do coyote and crow contests tarnish hunters' image?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I'm a pretty big believer in not intoducing legislation that protects a few idiots from themselves or those which consequences do not affect others (like helmet laws for example). Lead shot is not one of those regulations. It does affect others. I will admit I do not do a lot of bird hunting, but do head out a few times a year. For turkey I use Hevi-13.

 

Take up duck hunting for a season and feed a steady diet of that during some good shooting. You probably wouldn't notice the cost and many probably wouldn't either, but there is no denying that the non toxic option is more expensive. There are only 3 calibers that I am currently still loading with any lead. I am hoping I can get the range time to work up some all copper loads for those this summer as well. I probably wouldn't even miss lead for the shotgun but I can tell you that I really miss having it for my fishing sinkers. These new sinkers suck big time. That is the one item I look had for at any event or garage sale. I am actually thinking of starting to cast my own.

[Curmudgeon]

This is for the most part good publicity from the NY Times - a liberal, urban newspaper - on the new hunters:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/02/books/new-breed-of-hunter-shoots-eats-and-writes.html?_r=0

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/25/dining/25hunt.html?pagewanted=all

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/26/magazine/carnivore.html?pagewanted=all

[Five Seasons]

Elitists have their view on the issue, and I have mine.  When all hunting is completely banned, I'm sure the elitists will believe they were doing the right thing and none of the blame is theirs.

 

what exactly does an elitist do that is endangering hunting? Sure a few heated conversations on ethics and the way a hunter should carry him or herself do take place. In the overall scheme of license sales how many have quit the sport because another hunter told them they should tuck the tongue in when posting pictures on facebook? I bet it's less than 1%. You know why people quit? Land access. By far and wide the #1 issue. The old timers can contest to being able to walk to the farm across the street and sit on a Saturday. Now that farm is a suburb or posted tight.

 

An elitest probably does more for the sport than a weekend warrior. While we both pay the same for our tags, one is constantly advocating to introduce new regulations to help hunters. Constantly spending large chunks of money on land, leases, food plots to grow deer and money on gadgets and gizmos to support the industry. Big companies that take our money will be the best and biggest lobbyists for our sport. Money talks; why do you think cigarettes are still legal? They cause cancer and so does lead paint. One is banned the other is not. 

 

Just another take on it.

 

[steve863]

In general, you will never get a positive portrayal of hunting by the mainstream media.  Just won't happen, no matter what you say or how intelligently you might say it.  They will use sound bites or spin it the way they want to, which surely won't be to the benefit of hunters.  This won't be changing any time soon either.  If anything it will only get worse.  My own approach is to not stir things up.  Hunting is legal in all 50 states, and no matter how many people might be against it, I don't see states banning it and losing the millions of revenue they get from it.  Sure, you might get a few referendums put out somewhere where certain types of hunting might lose out, but in general hunting isn't going anywhere.  If anything these coyote contests being advertised brings MORE of the attention to hunting that we DON'T need, so in the long run how is this benefitting us?  Probably best to just be quiet and do what we like to do, which is hunt.  Won't stir things up with anyone, and for the most part no one will even realize that we are even hunting.  Just as being illusive can make one a better hunter, I think being illusive amongst non-hunters can be more beneficial than being too loud.

 

 

 

[steve863]

This is for the most part good publicity from the NY Times - a liberal, urban newspaper - on the new hunters:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/02/books/new-breed-of-hunter-shoots-eats-and-writes.html?_r=0

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/25/dining/25hunt.html?pagewanted=all

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/26/magazine/carnivore.html?pagewanted=all

 

 

I've come across articles like these.  To me they are more PR type articles promoting someones book than they are factual articles about hunting, why most people hunt and why it's needed.   These people who somehow decided they wanted to hunt because they want to be more in touch with nature will probably never be the majority of those hunting.  What I don't see is positive articles about why the rest of us hunt, for whatever other reasons it may be.

[Curmudgeon]

I've come across articles like these.  To me they are more PR type articles promoting someones book than they are factual articles about hunting, why most people hunt and why it's needed.   These people who somehow decided they wanted to hunt because they want to be more in touch with nature will probably never be the majority of those hunting.  What I don't see is positive articles about why the rest of us hunt, for whatever other reasons it may be.

 

It's the nature of the news industry. Why we hunt is old news - very old.

 

[Doc]

It's the nature of the news industry. Why we hunt is old news - very old.

 

Why we hunt may be old news, but I wonder how many of us really even know. I know what our public mantra for P.R. consumption is about population control and serving as selfless benefactors of all outdoors and God's creatures. But I'll be honest with you. When I am getting all amped up for my first crack at deer, and I head out that door, I can never recall a single time that I kept thinking to myself that today I'm going to get out there and save the deer and do my part for population control. I can't even say that getting some prime venison is on my mind when I hunt. It's hard to represent ourselves to the public when perhaps we have never put much honest and soul-searching thought into why we do it. We can certainly list off the benefits of hunting, but when it comes to internal motives, perhaps that isn't so easy.

 

Maybe its time that I post my annual thread asking why we hunt ..... lol.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

It's the nature of the news industry. Why we hunt is old news - very old.

 

My favorite line out of the articles.

 

"Or it could be that hunting is one of those experiences that appear utterly different from the inside than the outside"

[Jennifer]

Some of you may not be aware that a whole new generation of hunters is coming. People who object to the industrial food industry. People who want to be connected to where their food comes from. People who are known as "foodies" - a somewhat ridiculous term. This includes a number of young women. These are educated people. This group was not raised like most of us. It would be valuable to understand their sensibilities and not offend them. It would be helpful if everyone read The Omnivore's Dilemma to understand where these new hunters are coming from.

 

Nearly everyone that approaches me to ask about hunting are in this group. I am looking mostly at people my age and younger (I am 32). They are well educated people, with a very valid and real concern about food sourcing, ecology, and conservation. They were not raised around hunters but became receptive to it as they educated themselves. Yes-- we still have hunters coming out of hunting families. I did. A lot of the people that use this forum did. But to ignore this new generation of people looking to get back to nature/connect with food/conservation would be completely blind. They are the future of this sport and the future of conservation. Very, very interestingly they also tend to have an overlap with animal welfare advocates. This growing group of people also tend to be more involved in conservation as well. They are reaching a hand out to hunting, and some people are slapping it away. Not wise.

 

 

I've come across articles like these.  To me they are more PR type articles promoting someones book than they are factual articles about hunting, why most people hunt and why it's needed.   These people who somehow decided they wanted to hunt because they want to be more in touch with nature will probably never be the majority of those hunting.  What I don't see is positive articles about why the rest of us hunt, for whatever other reasons it may be.

 

Yes and no-- books like these, like them or not, are genuinely causing people to be receptive to hunting. I can name about five people that have gone from on the fence to genuinely curious about the sport. One wants to drive out and visit me and go hunting with me some time in the next few years. So, they are PR in the disguise but they do whittle away at things, too.

I don't know if I am right or wrong, but I think as our society evolves (like it or not), we will actually see a large percentage of hunters be the people I am referring to here as the older generations age or pass on. The "back to nature" type people. More people are born outside of hunting families now than ever before, and the only way for them to get into hunting is to be a "back to nature" person.

 

Actually, this makes me wonder. Have there been any studies/polls as to the age structure of American hunters?

[mike rossi]

Here is what I dredged up in cyberspace: (besides the rigor mortus, I forgot about the X in the eyes)

 

http://bqekeeper.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/1836908_10201654955832486_1944939023_o.jpg

 

 

Just shy of 35,000 signatures:     http://www.care2.com/causes/new-york-continues-its-animal-blood-bath-trend-with-upcoming-crow-down.html

 

 

 

[mike rossi]

I've come across articles like these.  To me they are more PR type articles promoting someones book than they are factual articles about hunting, why most people hunt and why it's needed.   These people who somehow decided they wanted to hunt because they want to be more in touch with nature will probably never be the majority of those hunting.  What I don't see is positive articles about why the rest of us hunt, for whatever other reasons it may be.

 

What you are saying would normally be true. However, there is a significant and measurable (its been measured) number of people entering hunting because of this. Even some state wildlife agencies, one example being  Texas Parks, and Wildlife are leveraging the foodie movement. The DEC should too...

 

More people entered hunting because of this than because of Duck Dynasty. That is another story in itself. The Robertson clan had an immense opportunity to promote hunting, yet they chose only to promote themselves. Worse, they went off on at least one politically incorrect rant...

Edited December 12, 2014 by mike rossi

[Curmudgeon]

 They are reaching a hand out to hunting, and some people are slapping it away. Not wise.

 

 

I think the woman I am mentoring (see thread Mentoring Young Women) falls into this category. Her experience at a gun club was to be treated as a child in a condescending manner.

 

Gun clubs should open their arms to these people.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Curmudgeon

[mike rossi]

In general, you will never get a positive portrayal of hunting by the mainstream media.  Just won't happen, no matter what you say or how intelligently you might say it.  They will use sound bites or spin it the way they want to, which surely won't be to the benefit of hunters.  This won't be changing any time soon either.  If anything it will only get worse.  My own approach is to not stir things up.  Hunting is legal in all 50 states, and no matter how many people might be against it, I don't see states banning it and losing the millions of revenue they get from it.  Sure, you might get a few referendums put out somewhere where certain types of hunting might lose out, but in general hunting isn't going anywhere.  If anything these coyote contests being advertised brings MORE of the attention to hunting that we DON'T need, so in the long run how is this benefitting us?  Probably best to just be quiet and do what we like to do, which is hunt.  Won't stir things up with anyone, and for the most part no one will even realize that we are even hunting.  Just as being illusive can make one a better hunter, I think being illusive amongst non-hunters can be more beneficial than being too loud.

 

The NY Times butchered the crow down people. That is why the NY Farm Bureau does spokes person training. In the past, the procedure was to let the wildlife departments do the talking. That isn't practical anymore.

 

That reminds me, Culver, if Andy Revkin from the NY Times wants to interview anyone from Holley, make very careful statement. I suggest you dredge up the article he wrote about the crow down last year and expect a similar line of questions. I would not be sure if an interview should be refused either, because then he will just fill in the blanks, the crow down dude did interview, but was not forthcoming and it seems the Times filled in the blanks.

 

We had a kid from an Ohio College paper post on NYDH's Face book page soliciting for dove hunters to interview. We immediately deleted the post and I called him and offered to answer his questions. He said he would call me back with the interview, but he never did. On that initial phone call I had some questions for him, and his response seemed to indicate that he was constructing an article to show that "there are no dove hunters in Ohio". Well, if you read our website, you know we have a chart about that, which includes Ohio, and shows there are many dove hunters in that state, and, they kill a lot of doves. I simply emailed him the link. Never heard back.

[mike rossi]

Dredged up about the Holley Squirrel Slam:

 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/STOP-Squirrel-Slam-in-Holley-NY/183371988453687

 

http://www.whec.com/article/stories/s3335628.shtml

 

 

 

[mike rossi]

 

Actually, this makes me wonder. Have there been any studies/polls as to the age structure of American hunters?

 

Yes.

[steve863]

What you are saying would normally be true. However, there is a significant and measurable (its been measured) number of people entering hunting because of this. Even some state wildlife agencies, one example being  Texas Parks, and Wildlife are leveraging the foodie movement. The DEC should too...

 

More people entered hunting because of this than because of Duck Dynasty. That is another story in itself. The Robertson clan had an immense opportunity to promote hunting, yet they chose only to promote themselves. Worse, they went off on at least one politically incorrect rant...

 

 

Maybe you guys are right.  Maybe there are significant numbers of these people entering the hunting ranks, I don't know for sure, but I really wonder how things would pan out for us if they ever became the majority?  Hell, things are bad enough now, I just don't know how a totally urbanized mindset would work in the hunting world.  Probably would have as many negatives as being represented by only the good ole' boys and Ted Nugent.   Would be interesting for sure.

[mike rossi]

They are utilizing You Tube and the News Network (Holley SS):

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2oKE6ysZKD0

[Jennifer]

Maybe you guys are right.  Maybe there are significant numbers of these people entering the hunting ranks, I don't know for sure, but I really wonder how things would pan out for us if they ever became the majority?  Hell, things are bad enough now, I just don't know how a totally urbanized mindset would work in the hunting world.  Probably would have as many negatives as being represented by only the good ole' boys and Ted Nugent.   Would be interesting for sure.

 

While some of these people are undoubtedly coming from an urban background, not all are. I couldn't begin to quote numbers at you (I suspect that this subset of interested hunters haven't been polled) but in my limited experience most have not been from urban areas. Again I can not speak for anything other than my personal experience, but they are not approaching this from an urban mindset. A lot of these same people are starting to get into small-to-mid size farming. One of my peers that started out on this path went from suburban housing-development type living to buying a large parcel of land in MN, she is now starting a farm and already runs several successful apiaries and does butchering without a flinch. Another friend just bought land in CO and is getting into poultry raising and hunting. She can't find a mentor and so hopes to come out to NY soon so I can start her on the basics. Both are very educated and interested in conservation and the outdoors. Those are just two examples.

 

I realize my anecdotes don't count for much. But we can't dismiss these people out of hand.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Jennifer

[Jennifer]

Yes.

 

Can you point me in the direction of seeing the results?

[Five Seasons]

Why we hunt may be old news, but I wonder how many of us really even know. I know what our public mantra for P.R. consumption is about population control and serving as selfless benefactors of all outdoors and God's creatures. But I'll be honest with you. When I am getting all amped up for my first crack at deer, and I head out that door, I can never recall a single time that I kept thinking to myself that today I'm going to get out there and save the deer and do my part for population control. I can't even say that getting some prime venison is on my mind when I hunt. It's hard to represent ourselves to the public when perhaps we have never put much honest and soul-searching thought into why we do it. We can certainly list off the benefits of hunting, but when it comes to internal motives, perhaps that isn't so easy.

 

Maybe its time that I post my annual thread asking why we hunt ..... lol.

 

i doubt there's a single hunter save a few farmers who hunt for population control. We do it for the challenge, the meat, the reward, the antlers, the escape and in some ways a primal urge.

 

i love a big buck. Love antlers. But I think what I really enjoy is the journey from start to finish. Countless hours prepping. thousands of dollars invested. countless hours of sitting and waiting (which I love too). The work and effort to drag the deer out of the woods. There's something about skinning and quartering that deer myself and then my wife and I sit at the table cutting it up. I know that I went out and from start to finish put healthy organic quality food in my families belly.

 

Do not get me wrong, we don't need venison to survive. We still eat plenty of beef, chicken, fish and turkey. But none of that do I have even the slightest clue of where it came from and what hormones are in it.

 

The "clean eating" movement is one of the best things going for hunters.

[Five Seasons]

Maybe you guys are right.  Maybe there are significant numbers of these people entering the hunting ranks, I don't know for sure, but I really wonder how things would pan out for us if they ever became the majority?  Hell, things are bad enough now, I just don't know how a totally urbanized mindset would work in the hunting world.  Probably would have as many negatives as being represented by only the good ole' boys and Ted Nugent.   Would be interesting for sure.

 

there are some urbanites i would take over sloppy white trash any day. They tend to be educated and thoughtful. If you're a foody you're less likely to leave your bud light can in the woods. Seems to be a mindset of doing things right and with care. So less likely to lie, cheat, steal and bait.

 

The answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

[Jennifer]

there are some urbanites i would take over sloppy white trash any day. They tend to be educated and thoughtful. If you're a foody you're less likely to leave your bud light can in the woods. Seems to be a mindset of doing things right and with care. So less likely to lie, cheat, steal and bait.

 

The answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

 

Most answers are.

[Curmudgeon]

Belo -

 

I wish my venison was organic. I can't keep the deer out of my neighbors corn. They wouldn't pass organic standards. I eat them anyway.

 

 

[steve863]

there are some urbanites i would take over sloppy white trash any day. They tend to be educated and thoughtful. If you're a foody you're less likely to leave your bud light can in the woods. Seems to be a mindset of doing things right and with care. So less likely to lie, cheat, steal and bait.

 

The answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

 

 

 

Maybe this new group would also remove the trophy aspect from hunting, which in turn would keep the cost of hunting to reasonable levels?  You wouldn't have everyone and their uncles leasing land for top dollar to hunters hungry for trophies.  I surely would welcome that, but I'm sure others wouldn't.  Who knows what would happen?  Urbanites can bring money into it too, so who knows for sure?

[Curmudgeon]

I just did a search to see if DEC has any mentoring program for new hunters. They seem to only address youths. From my experience - and Jennifer's - it seems there is a need to fill. There may be an opportunity here for clubs across the state. Of course the good-old-boy mentality could be a problem in some places.