Crossbow "education"

[tughillmcd]

Then throw down that crappy old crossbow and stay with modern rifles. The rifle is still the "most effective weapon available".

 

You can't have it both ways. Those of us who take up the limitations of archery hunting do so with it in mind that we want the challenge of a limited weapon. That is the whole point to the "special" archery season. Bow season was initially established as a way of handicapping the hunter with a weapon that requires rigid technique and exceptional hunting skills that require the ability to operate in close proximity to the prey. Since the day of it's inception, people have been working diligently to destroy the intent behind the original season and slowly evolve it back toward some other version of "gun season". Almost all of that evolution has been done in the name of  using "the most effective weapon available". If you are serious about that statement, then you must believe that the introduction of bow season was a real bad idea whether you are using a longbow, recurve, compound or crossbow.

 

 

Sorry Doc, but archery season was not carved out of gun season to "handicap" archers. In the 50's, bow hunters were handicapped as they were required to use their bows only when everyone around them was using guns. And back then the most common means of hunting was deer drives. Try and get a deer to come in, calm and relaxed while that is going on. Now if that was not being handicapped I don't know what is.

Archery season is separate to allow for a different skill set of getting the animal in close, hopefully in an non-agitated state. For the crossbow hunter, that should be the same goal. Shots beyond 40 yards should be avoided. Yes, people do it, and can be successful, but the farther you shoot, the chances of wounding increases rapidly over clean kills.And its not just crossbow hunters, compound shooters do it too.  Some people are lucky, and all the practice does not mean things can't go wrong. We as hunters owe it to the animal to not take chances, and do everything we can to kill as quickly and humanly as possible.

[Doc]

Sorry Doc, but archery season was not carved out of gun season to "handicap" archers. In the 50's, bow hunters were handicapped as they were required to use their bows only when everyone around them was using guns. And back then the most common means of hunting was deer drives. Try and get a deer to come in, calm and relaxed while that is going on. Now if that was not being handicapped I don't know what is.

 

Yup!, That's exactly what I said, except I did not say anything about handicapping "archers". My word was "hunters". The season was established  for those hunters who wanted to take on deer hunting using unique primitive equipment as a means of accepting a handicap to create noteworthy challenge. 

 

And exactly as I said, people have been diligently (and successfully) working ever since to change that primitive (handicapped) equipment toward equipment that removes more and more of that initial goal of challenge. That really is not something anyone can honestly dispute. The invention and mass marketing of the compound bow was the beginning of it all, and from that point, the destruction of the initial concepts of bow season have eroded with no end in sight. The ever increasing success rates kind of indicate that.

 

And by the way, the skill set intended for bow season was not simply so people could practice a close range hunting, but the equipment was such that there was no choice. The physical skills involved in shooting recurves and longbows was the very feature of bowhunting that required hunters to close the distance. It was specifically the handicap of the unique equipment that required that the season be separated from gun season.

 

So, I don't think there is a whole lot of difference in what either of us are saying ..... Just different ways of saying it. I am simply adding that I don't necessarily agree that the initial concepts and restrictions of bow season are something that we should be working so hard to get rid of.  

[wildcat junkie]

Yup!, That's exactly what I said, except I did not say anything about handicapping "archers". My word was "hunters". The season was established  for those hunters who wanted to take on deer hunting using unique primitive equipment as a means of accepting a handicap to create noteworthy challenge. 

 

And exactly as I said, people have been diligently (and successfully) working ever since to change that primitive (handicapped) equipment toward equipment that removes more and more of that initial goal of challenge. That really is not something anyone can honestly dispute. The invention and mass marketing of the compound bow was the beginning of it all, and from that point, the destruction of the initial concepts of bow season have eroded with no end in sight. The ever increasing success rates kind of indicate that.

 

And by the way, the skill set intended for bow season was not simply so people could practice a close range hunting, but the equipment was such that there was no choice. The physical skills involved in shooting recurves and longbows was the very feature of bowhunting that required hunters to close the distance. It was specifically the handicap of the unique equipment that required that the season be separated from gun season.

 

So, I don't think there is a whole lot of difference in what either of us are saying ..... Just different ways of saying it. I am simply adding that I don't necessarily agree that the initial concepts and restrictions of bow season are something that we should be working so hard to get rid of.  

Absolutely correct.

 

And unfortunately, all of these points can be applied to the modern high tech "muzzle-loader technology"

 

Mass marketing of  technology for the sake of increasing sales regardless of how it degrades the experience of using "primitive weapons". Muzzle-loader season is now just an extension of rifle season with single shot weaponry. Crossbows are doing the same thing to archery season.

[tughillmcd]

I would think the best way to handle x-bow hunter safety training would be to include the mechanics of crossbow shooting into the existing bowhunter training classes, and require that course to hunt with a crossbow. That way they get familiar with the way broadheads work, where to aim for most effective killing with a broadhead, and other features of killing through hemorrhaging/cutting rather than impact killing. Much of the hunting procedures would apply, and the limitations could be taught.

 

Doc,

 

Crossbows should be included in the bow class. As you state, hunting with broadhead tipped arrows is totally different than hunting with bullets.

The curriculum is already established to include crossbows in the bow hunting class, but it's implementation is hindered by the legislatures requiring the Muzzleloader privilege over the Bow privilege requirement for using them. Here is a link to the supplemental manual http://www.nbef.org/ecommerce/todays-crossbow-addendum-manual.html

The way to correct this is to have the law changed to classify the crossbow as a legal bow and require the bow privilege instead of the mz privilege, thus requiring everyone to have taken the bow class to use a crossbow for big game outside the regular firearms season.

NYCC is working to see this legislation introduced and passed asap. If this is not done soon, everyone that has used a crossbow will want to be grandfathered without having to take the class if this happens later. That would only serve to complicate the whole issue.

[Doc]

Absolutely correct.

 

And unfortunately, all of these points can be applied to the modern high tech "muzzle-loader technology"

 

Mass marketing of  technology for the sake of increasing sales regardless of how it degrades the experience of using "primitive weapons". Muzzle-loader season is now just an extension of rifle season with single shot weaponry. Crossbows are doing the same thing to archery season.

It appears to be human nature to want to take the challenge out of everything we do. In archery, we get the illusion of wanting challenge by limiting ourselves with our equipment. And then we start buying everything that anyone can think of to remove challenge. It is without exception, and yes, muzzleloading technology has gone through the same game-changing mentality to remove anything that may serve as a challenge. We do not need to hunt for sustenance and theoretically the purpose of modern-day hunting is to create a "fair" competition between man and nature's critters. But when we get a chance to "cheat" and put the odds back in our favor, we can't seem to buy enough gadgets and gizmos to remove as much of the animal's  edge as we can. If we don't do it with our weaponry, we do it with scent-free clothing, camo, scent-killing chemicals (oh yes the chemists get into the act also .... lol), tree-stands, arrow flinging machines of increasing speed and accuracy, or any other mechanical and chemical advantage that anyone can provide us, so that we can take from engineers and designers, and claim for our own successes as hunters. Most of the hunting success of today is directly attributable to some nerdy, egghead, sitting in a cubicle somewhere inventing things that we can take credit for and use against the natural defenses of our prey. ..... Human nature .... Most of us do it. And it shows no sign of slowing or reversing. We're addicted to taking credit for the success of marketplace products, invented and supplied by someone else. Challenge .... yes, for the engineers and chemists. For us hunters .... well maybe not as much as we like to pretend.

[Doc]

Doc,

 

Crossbows should be included in the bow class. As you state, hunting with broadhead tipped arrows is totally different than hunting with bullets.

The method of killing with broadheads relies on hemorrhaging. Not impact as in the case of a slug or bullet. Therefore the target has some extra requirements in terms of where the most humane and effective areas are located. Also, after the shot, the rules of effective pursuit and retrieval have different guidelines and practices than those of a gun. I think those features all by themselves tell you that gun instruction for crossbows is probably not the right selection. Put the crossbow season wherever it all finally shakes out, but the education principles should be part of a bowhunter training program or a separate program of its own (which may not really be a terrible option).