NY's Future Under A Fracking Ban

[Mr VJP]

Individual preferences may vary, but an Independent  can be an eco-facist and big government proponent that supports the ideology of anti-capitalism.  My reference is to liberals in general and their anti economy regulatory platform.

 

And the devastated economy makes it someplace you would want to live?  

 

Long Live The Great Depression #2

[Curmudgeon]

In our devastated economy, everyone has a car, satellite TV, an ATV and snowmobile, a smart phone, multiple firearms, and lots of really fatty food.

[Mr VJP]

Everyone?  You sure about that?

 

Most folks I know don't, but they do have a huge amount of debt.

 

Edited May 14, 2015 by Mr VJP

[scolopaxmatt]

It's a ghost town now, but it will be more of a ghost town later?  that's like saying he's dead, but we can make him deader.

 

Fair point.  But that's apples to oranges.

[Curmudgeon]

Long Live The Great Depression #2

 

I wasn't around during the Great Depression, however, everything I know about it suggests it was nothing like today.

[Merlot]

when the gas is gone you mean the gas that is just sitting there with no perpose when it could be making a life for good people oooookkkyyyy

We, as a country, need to protect our rear ends when it comes to energy requirements. If the fracking can be managed safely, why not grab the available resource and utilize it? I see Olean will be building a solar park of some kind soon for several million dollars, financed by other than private investment. I wonder how it will turn out? I worry when stuff like this appears...I guess people smarter than I have worked out the bugs in harvesting solar power when clouds obscure the sun here in dismal valley...oh and after the sun sets. Oh well, we are getting N union street ripped up for roundabouts and reduced driving lanes..Gee, can't wait for all this good stuff to appear on my dime.

[Mr VJP]

I wasn't around during the Great Depression, however, everything I know about it suggests it was nothing like today.

 

Give it some time.

[Curmudgeon]

When I look in my crystal ball, I too see a depressing future. However, that dystopia will not be blamed on rural Americans that grew tired of being treated like third world citizens. That unpleasant future will be blamed on climate change deniers.

[Curmudgeon]

Look what just showed up:

 

From: Oregon State University
Published May 13, 2015 03:34 PM

New study examines the air quality impacts of fracking wells

 

People living or working near active natural gas wells may be exposed to certain pollutants at higher levels than the Environmental Protection Agency considers safe for lifetime exposure, according to scientists from Oregon State University and the University of Cincinnati.

 

The researchers found that hydraulic fracturing – a technique for releasing natural gas from below-ground rock formations – emits pollutants known as PAHs (polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons), including some that are linked with increased risk of cancer and respiratory ailments.

 

“Air pollution from fracking operations may pose an under-recognized health hazard to people living near them,” said the study’s coauthor Kim Anderson, an environmental chemist with OSU’s College of Agricultural Sciences.

 

The study, which appears in the journal Environmental Science & Technology’s online edition, is part of a larger project co-led by the University of Cincinnati’s Erin Haynes, OSU’s Anderson, her graduate student Blair Paulik and Laurel Kincl, director of OSU’s Environmental Health Science Center.

 

Anderson and her colleagues collected air samples from sites near active natural gas wells in Carroll County, Ohio, over a three-week period last February. Carroll County sits on top of the Utica formation, a deep oil- and gas-rich reef of subterranean shale. The rural county is a hotspot of natural gas prospecting, with more than one active well site per square mile.

 

The study got its start when a group of citizens approached Haynes, who is a public health expert, wanting to know more about health risks from natural gas extraction.

 

Haynes got in touch with Anderson and Kincl, and together they designed the study to include citizen participation. They placed air samplers on the properties of 23 volunteers living or working at sites ranging from right next to a gas well to a little more than three miles away.

The samplers are aluminum T-shaped boxes containing specially treated polyethylene ribbons that absorb contaminants in a similar manner to biological cells. Volunteers were trained in proper handling of samplers and documenting of data.

 

After the study period, the volunteers packaged the samplers in airtight bags, labeled them and mailed them back to Anderson’s lab at OSU.

The samplers picked up high levels of PAHs across the study area. Levels were highest closest to the wells and decreased by about 30 percent with distance.

[Dave]

With regard to the other states benefiting from the fracking boom at the expense of health and welfare of their residents. These states lack any real meaningful regulations on fracking and usually  let the regulations they have come from the oil and gas industry. I believe this was good for NY because after 8 years  moritorium on fracking we were able to see what was happening in other states. And from what the studies have shown it gave us the information we needed to ban fracking in NY. From air pollution, contaminated wells, earthquakes ,destruction of a rural way of life. With many quality of lfe issues not to forget the short changing of land owners on lease payments and reducing of royalties. Some people have cursed the day they got in bed with these gas companies.

[scolopaxmatt]

Department of Health released its report today.

 

http://breakingenergy.com/documents/ny-state-releases-fracking-report/

 

http://www.wgrz.com/story/news/2015/05/13/seven-years-later-ny-finalizes-fracking-review/27273637/

Edited May 14, 2015 by scolopaxmatt

[Mr VJP]

Do any of you guys even notice none of these studies ever conclusively states any real problem?

 

How many times do you have to see the word "MAY" in print in these reports before you start to ask why it doesn't say something more certain like "DOES"?

 

Because it is not scientific proof, that's why.

 

Apparently reading a lot of reports claiming fracking MAY cause everything from cancer to violent death, causes brain damage in the people who want it to be the Devil incarnate.

 

[Dave]

Do any of you guys even notice none of these studies ever conclusively states any real problem?

 

How many times do you have to see the word "MAY" in print in these reports before you start to ask why it doesn't say something more certain like "DOES"?

 

Because it is not scientific proof, that's why.

 

Apparently reading a lot of reports claiming fracking MAY cause everything from cancer to violent death, causes brain damage in the people who want it to be the Devil incarnate.

 

I gusee it's alot like the disclosure on your prescription drug bottle. May cause death, liver damage, brain damage heart attack etc.

Whats the difference? Everyhing MAY... It doesn't say will but it may. 

 

[Dave]

Do any of you guys even notice none of these studies ever conclusively states any real problem?

 

How many times do you have to see the word "MAY" in print in these reports before you start to ask why it doesn't say something more certain like "DOES"?

 

Because it is not scientific proof, that's why.

 

Apparently reading a lot of reports claiming fracking MAY cause everything from cancer to violent death, causes brain damage in the people who want it to be the Devil incarnate.

 

One thing I forgot to mention, If fracking is so safe why do the Oil and Gas companies make every landowner sign a non disclosure statement? In many environmental incidents the non disclosure statement prevents the information from going public. So the oil and gas companies can claim no documented incidents of water contamination have been reported. Does that mean it never happened?? I think not.

 

[wildcat junkie]

 

Long Live The Great Depression #2

 

The Tea-Turds in congress are working hard to assure that.

 

I wasn't around during the Great Depression, however, everything I know about it suggests it was nothing like today.

Wasn't the 1st one brought about due to Republican economics policies too?

[Doc]

Choose to believe whichever side you want.  Believe neither side if you want.

 

But the point of the OP was to point out the terrible economic situation in much of NY State and fracking would improve that situation.

 

If there is absolute proof it would be more harm than good, let's see it.

 

If you can't present that proof, then show me what other plans you propose to help the people suffering under the current depression that has come about due to over regulation of the economy in the first pace.

 

It isn't real noble to think of yourself as a savior of the planet, when it's at the expense of the people trying to live on it.  It's just another politically correct ploy by Liberals.  They rejoice in the destruction of the economy and capitalism.  This is just another feather in their cap, nothing more.

 

Only NY would block an industry already thriving in many other states based on conjecture.  It does it in many other areas as well, because it refuses to ever look at any other states that are doing it right.

 

Libs.jpg

My motives are a little more selfish than trying to save a planet....lol. I only want to save my little part of it. At my age, it may not be all that important, but for those that have a bunch of years left, it may be a bit disconcerting to find out 20 years down the road that people sold off the future years of their longevity and property values for some short term prosperity. I have no problem with extended discussion. And I have no sympathy for demonizing those that offer a view of patience and thorough forethought. I tend to be a bit more cautious on controversial issues, and have no real desire to muck around in things simply for some quick cash only to find out later that maybe we were a bit premature and overzealous in our promotion and defense of these activities.

 

Frankly, I doubt there is anyone on this forum that is capable of giving a credible argument on this issue although many try to give the impression that they have some "special" knowledge. It seems to me that it is not an ideological issue (not everything is). In fact it is a scientific issue that should be sorted out by the scientists. I also believe that the financial arguments are incidental and should not be used to force dumb decisions that may not have such nice consequences.

 

Oh, and by the way, if you really have to get into the ideology of all of the suffering masses of bad economic situations in NYS, keep in mind that much of the liberal, socialistic, gains made in this state, followed that same tear-jerking line of argument. Such emotional heart-rending arguments seldom have good logical outcomes.

[Dave]

My motives are a little more selfish than trying to save a planet....lol. I only want to save my little part of it. At my age, it may not be all that important, but for those that have a bunch of years left, it may be a bit disconcerting to find out 20 years down the road that people sold off the future years of their longevity and property values for some short term prosperity. I have no problem with extended discussion. And I have no sympathy for demonizing those that offer a view of patience and thorough forethought. I tend to be a bit more cautious on controversial issues, and have no real desire to muck around in things simply for some quick cash only to find out later that maybe we were a bit premature and overzealous in our promotion and defense of these activities.

 

Frankly, I doubt there is anyone on this forum that is capable of giving a credible argument on this issue although many try to give the impression that they have some "special" knowledge. It seems to me that it is not an ideological issue (not everything is). In fact it is a scientific issue that should be sorted out by the scientists. I also believe that the financial arguments are incidental and should not be used to force dumb decisions that may not have such nice consequences.

 

Oh, and by the way, if you really have to get into the ideology of all of the suffering masses of bad economic situations in NYS, keep in mind that much of the liberal, socialistic, gains made in this state, followed that same tear-jerking line of argument. Such emotional heart-rending arguments seldom have good logical outcomes.

 

Doc, I don't see that this is much of a scientific issue as one of common sense.  You pour hundreds of thousands of pounds of chemicals down a well hole under extreme pressure to break up the shale to release the gas. Chemicals that can cause cancer , create a stream of contaminated backwash . That we don't have the capacity to recycle back to the environment can't be good for anybody or anything on this palnet. It's not as complicated as you would have us believe.  Nothing about this process is safe, nothing.

 

[wildcat junkie]

Frankly, I doubt there is anyone on this forum that is capable of giving a credible argument on this issue although many try to give the impression that they have some "special" knowledge. It seems to me that it is not an ideological issue (not everything is). In fact it is a scientific issue that should be sorted out by the scientists. I also believe that the financial arguments are incidental and should not be used to force dumb decisions that may not have such nice consequences.

Kind of like the "Climate Change" arguments huh?

[Curmudgeon]

VJP wants proof of harm before restricting economic activity. I want proof of safety before initiating fracking.

 

Precautionary principle

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

The precautionary principle or precautionary approach to risk management states that if an action or policy has a suspected risk of causing harm to the public or to the environment, in the absence of scientific consensus that the action or policy is not harmful, the burden of proof that it is not harmful falls on those taking an action.

 

The principle is used by policy makers to justify discretionary decisions in situations where there is the possibility of harm from making a certain decision (e.g. taking a particular course of action) when extensive scientific knowledge on the matter is lacking. The principle implies that there is a social responsibility to protect the public from exposure to harm, when scientific investigation has found a plausible risk. These protections can be relaxed only if further scientific findings emerge that provide sound evidence that no harm will result.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Curmudgeon

[Merlot]

OK, now that fracking is banned in NYS, there should be no objection in erecting wind turbines within the townships that objected to the fracking wells in the first place. What the hell, build on the sites that were reserved for fracking wells. Sounds like a no-brainer to me. Those townships should step up and volunteer for turbine construction. What a great way to fight global fracking. Just call Andy...he'll arrange everything.

[Curmudgeon]

Actually, the best place for turbines if off-shore. The wind is more steady and the supply is more closely timed to the demand.

[Merlot]

Actually, the best place for turbines if off-shore. The wind is more steady and the supply is more closely timed to the demand.

Great, let's line 'em up from Lackawanna, NY down to Erie PA. What the hell. I wish that construction starts tomorrow.

[growalot]

Merlot...just a question...do you actually live in an area where those wind turbines would be erected?

[growalot]

I love these posts...why well because of the cluelessness ...lets look at something we all know...dairy farms(could be hog or chicken)...DEC put in all types of rules about cattle on lands...farmers now have them all packed up in barns "contained" collecting all that waste in holding ponds. Now what...well spread all that over the fields.... Then the DEC puts in their little rules about spreading...Sooo inject it into the soils and who regulates this...the farmers of course...because the rules say...you have to HIRE YOUR own planner. What do you have?...Farmers saying hey...more land to plant and spread...for cows are in one place...I have room for another barn and MORE cows. That brings more waste and more land that is NEEDED to spread the manure on. So now this is spreading out. Farm in one town, now trucking their TANKERS full of crap to the next town and fields ..year round folks...

 

Peoples wells getting contaminated ...streams contaminated, air pollution ...one town in around Castile NY surrounded by farm land...signs up  stating DO NOT DRINK the WATER...HIGH NITRATES...This isn't isolated happening across the country.. The point.... this is yet again, few ppl...because big farms have pushed out the little guy....in any industry.... turbines,fracking ,farming reaping the financial benefits while effecting in a negative way...those surrounding them. Those that end up with no legal recourse...if these were chemical plants people would be in an uproar...

Edited May 15, 2015 by growalot

[Merlot]

Merlot...just a question...do you actually live in an area where those wind turbines would be erected?

Yes, Town of Allegany, near Olean NY. Essentially, the plan to erect some 23 turbines was dropped due to legal battle, plus Wyoming county has a couple hundred scattered about, with a couple situated next to our camp property, and they are annoying. 400 footers with constant whooshing.

Fracking has been done in the oil fields in Allegany for decades. I'm sure stuff was not done completely correctly years ago, but lessons were learned, processes improved and progress continued. What company now would even take a chance at doing something incorrectly in the fracking process and get hauled into court.

Hopefully, Fracking will evolve to the point where very little water is required to do the job. I understand research is underway to get away from water injection. I wouldn't be surprised if peanut butter was injected into the frack well that some group would squawk about it.

Man o man it's getting tough. Cannot drill, cannot mine, cannot burn wood. What else is left to burn but cow methane gas and human popcorn farts.

 

Sorry grow, I worry about the direction country is heading...I'm frustrated. I do enjoy the debates and discussions here at HUNTINGNY.