DEC Announces Proposed Rule Changes to Allow Big Bore Air Rifles for Big Game Hunting

[EspressoBuzz]

Really? so because it's propelled by compressed air or gas it performs differently than a bullet propelled by an explosion?

As a handgun hunter myself I think I have more experience with slow heavy projectiles than any airgunhunters in ny unless they travel a lot.

 

No, because it is propelled by gas it is designed differently, including but not limited to the shape and the composition of the lead (or alloy) they do expand differently. I'm a NYer and I shoot an air gun almost daily and now that it is legal for hunting in NYS i go out often on long island and at least with small game I've always been impressed with the expansion and wound channel that air pellets make.

[13BVET]

No, because it is propelled by gas it is designed differently, including but not limited to the shape and the composition of the lead (or alloy) they do expand differently. I'm a NYer and I shoot an air gun almost daily and now that it is legal for hunting in NYS i go out often on long island and at least with small game I've always been impressed with the expansion and wound channel that air pellets make.

 

Yes, some of the pellets do some serious damage, like the Predators.

[Buckmaster7600]

Actually, airguns have been used for hunting for hundreds of years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gun

Thus pertains MAIN STREAM!

[Buckmaster7600]

Can someone show me a video or photos of a hollow point bullet from an air gun going through a rib and still getting 10-12" of penetration and I will take back what I said. There is a reason why most handgun hunters that Don't ant a lot of recoil that comes with th velocities use hard cast bullets. The energy that is used expanding a hollow point takes away from penetration.

[shawnhu]

Like I said all along velocity and weight with hardcast is all the same! I would say that the 100+ years of handgun hunting experience with large bore slow movers is exactly what I would be leaning on for performance as to a weapon that has really been main stream for 10 years or so.

Like I said, if you've never owned or shot a high performance PCP, you really have no business even comparing it to any powder burning firearm.

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[Buckmaster7600]

Like I said, if you've never owned or shot a high performance PCP, you really have no business even comparing it to any powder burning firearm.

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So you have no proof? I'm not against these at all what I am against is people using them and them not being effective at killing because of someone's ignorance.

I have been doing research and have found very little on anyone using hp's for big game.

[shawnhu]

So you have no proof? I'm not against these at all what I am against is people using them and them not being effective at killing because of someone's ignorance.

I have been doing research and have found very little on anyone using hp's for big game.

http://www.mrhollowpoint.com

Took me a few seconds to find this.

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[13BVET]

http://www.mrhollowpoint.com

Took me a few seconds to find this.

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Oh, yeah! Bob Vogel. The man makes, and markets bullets specifically for airguns. He owns some powerhouses, when it comes to big bores.

[13BVET]

ShawnHu, did you see the vid where he used helium instead of compressed air? Those damned bullets decimated the hogs!

[Buckmaster7600]

http://www.mrhollowpoint.com

Took me a few seconds to find this.

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I have been on this site and very few of his links worked and the few that did didn't show any numbers on velocities and what not. Do you know at what velocities the .45's are pushing those .255's ?

I know in my 45 colts that a 255 hardcast Keith style bullet at 1100 fps will go end for end of little NC deer as I did it a few times with it down there and of the 7 deer I killed with that set up not one took a step.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Buckmaster7600

[13BVET]

This is an interesting video of big bore airgun hunting, using helium. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB4VvvuSPcg

[shawnhu]

I have been on this site and very few of his links worked and the few that did didn't show any numbers on velocities and what not. Do you know at what velocities the .45's are pushing those .255's ?

I know in my 45 colts that a 255 hardcast Keith style bullet at 1100 fps will go end for end of little NC deer as I did it a few times with it down there and of the 7 deer I killed with that set up not one took a step.

You know, I really couldn't tell ya. I don't own a .45 PCP. And it's not like one can go on some cartridge manufacturing website and see the listed fps, energy, and bc specs for it, because it doesn't exist. If you're lucky, you'll get some bc data.

In a way, it's like asking rage how fast their broadheads leave the bow, and will it fully penetrate the game I'm after, without knowing my bow setup.

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[shawnhu]

This is an interesting video of big bore airgun hunting, using helium.

Awesome video Stan, thanks for sharing. .45 400gr, wow!

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[Doc]

Not for someone that has already made up their mind about Airguns and just pretending to be interested, no.

Lol ..... Oh, and you read minds too. I haven't made up my mind about anything regarding this issue. All of my comments are simply asking for some pertinent information so a choice can be made. And you pretend like terminal energy doesn't even enter into the discussion, as you engage in the doubletalk dance. It could be that we both agree on air guns if you could move into an actual discussion of the issue rather than wasting your time playing mind-reading games. 

[Doc]

Energy effectiveness is exactly true. Hard case bullets that past through only make a hole. The energy (in the way of mass and speed) left in the bullet exiting the animal does no further damage. The intent of the hollow point is to expand and release its energy into the body of the animal. That energy is in the form of a shockwave that damages internal organs around the hole. repeat: Poking a hole does little damage at any speed.  

I haven't seen anywhere where anyone was arguing projectile ballistics and design. I thought the discussion was about the propellant system and it's effectiveness. I am assuming that the air gun people understand projectile performance and design as well as anyone. What I have been consistently asking about is terminal energy numbers at various distances such that a comparison of powder driven projectiles and air driven projectiles can be compared.

 

Apples to apples people. I want to see some energy figures so I can consult my reloading book and compare it to performance values of known deer rifle calibers and loads. That seems to be something that nobody has found anywhere, or doesn't want to talk about for some reason.

[shawnhu]

Lol ..... Oh, and you read minds too. I haven't made up my mind about anything regarding this issue. All of my comments are simply asking for some pertinent information so a choice can be made. And you pretend like terminal energy doesn't even enter into the discussion, as you engage in the doubletalk dance. It could be that we both agree on air guns if you could move into an actual discussion of the issue rather than wasting your time playing mind-reading games.

What exactly are your choices to be made Doc? Which model airgun were you looking to purchase?

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[Doc]

Either way, unless you've shot Airguns with or without hollow points, energy, bc, terminal performance really is a moot point. It's like explaining to an anti the benefits of hunting or the outdoors, and this is the kind of attitude I see exhibited here, supposed hunters, against fellow hunters.

It is only hunters against hunters if you want to turn it into that. My responses have consistently been aimed at one piece of comparative data that helps to contemplate the legitimate place of air guns for deer hunting. The interesting part is that that question is met like I was asking for U.S. government classified information. Hell, we even have you telling me that I have made up my mind and now an implication that people who ask such questions are engaging in "hunter against hunter" mentality. We have people turning it into a ballistics discussion, as though because a projectile powered by air has some secret ballistic edge over gunpowder. I have to admit that I am completely baffled by the reaction. A simple question and such crazy irrational reactions.

[Doc]

What exactly are your choices to be made Doc? Which model airgun were you looking to purchase?

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Pick one. Anyone that you claim is a good deer-getter. It would be nice if the manufacturers of these guns would supply that data all together in one document or book to assist prospective customers in making a proper selection, But so far I have not seen any of that kind of data for even one model. I'm just curious if any of the deer hunting air guns is even in the ballpark with their gun powder brothers. Show me the data. Hell, show me anything that describes the terminal energy at various distances. How else do you make an intelligent decision about these things?

[shawnhu]

Pick one. Anyone that you claim is a good deer-getter. It would be nice if the manufacturers of these guns would supply that data all together in one document or book to assist prospective customers in making a proper selection, But so far I have not seen any of that kind of data for even one model. I'm just curious if any of the deer hunting air guns is even in the ballpark with their gun powder brothers. Show me the data. Hell, show me anything that describes the terminal energy at various distances. How else do you make an intelligent decision about these things?

You must have missed Stan's post on the Texan earlier.

Here's a few links for your educational pleasure.

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/AirForce_Texan_Big_Bore_Air_Rifle/3575

Sorry if none of these manufacturers can't get their act together and spoon feed you the data you're looking for Doc, you'll just have to find it or use a calculator like how the old timers did it back then, knowing just a few variables and maybe going out with a chrony and doing it yourself. Hope that's not too much to ask.

But personally, I find it a joy to tune my own Airguns to exactly how fast I want them to shoot and balance my shot counts the way I want to. I use ballistic calculators and plot my trajectory on my own and verify that they are correct at the range. I suppose it's easier to let manufacturers do all that for you and you just load the cartridge into the chamber and pull a trigger though. Nothing wrong with that either.

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[Doc]

You must have missed Stan's post on the Texan earlier.

Here's a few links for your educational pleasure.

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/AirForce_Texan_Big_Bore_Air_Rifle/3575

Sorry if none of these manufacturers can't get their act together and spoon feed you the data you're looking for Doc, you'll just have to find it or use a calculator like how the old timers did it back then, knowing just a few variables and maybe going out with a chrony and doing it yourself. Hope that's not too much to ask.

But personally, I find it a joy to tune my own Airguns to exactly how fast I want them to shoot and balance my shot counts the way I want to. I use ballistic calculators and plot my trajectory on my own and verify that they are correct at the range. I suppose it's easier to let manufacturers do all that for you and you just load the cartridge into the chamber and pull a trigger though. Nothing wrong with that either.

 

Yeah, that's better. Rather than trying to hide the data, they actually gave some meaningful numbers. Basically, this model gets about 500 ft pounds (and since they didn't tie that to any distance, I'll assume that's muzzle energy). Who knows what that number would be one or two hundred yards out. But anyway, it is something that you can rough out some crude comparisons with.

 

So anyway, how does that compare with a low end deer rifle. I picked a .243 with a 100 grain spire. With that bullet loaded to be going 2800 fps, 200 yards downrange (not at the muzzle) this wimpy deer load is delivering 1855 foot-pounds of energy. That's almost 4 times the energy from a rifle that is at the bottom of the list for me to use on deer. I guess you can conclude what you want from all of that, but for me I think I have made up my mind about whether I will be using one on deer or not. Is 500 ft-lbs enough? I guess it all depends on what you find acceptable. I doubt that I will be trading in my .270 for one of these things ..... lol.

[Doewhacker]

How long until a back ground check is required for one of these things.

 

I can see their value in the southern part of the state.

[Buckmaster7600]

Dbl post

Edited January 18, 2016 by Buckmaster7600

[Buckmaster7600]

I had time to watch the whole video now. I know these are a homemade bullet but it proved what I have been saying all along about hollow points at these speeds. The way that they are expanding with only gel is worrisome those bullets didn't have to go through hide let alone a bone and still only getting 14" of penetration isn't adequate in my opinion.

[shawnhu]

I had time to watch the whole video now. I know these are a homemade bullet but it proved what I have been saying all along about hollow points at these speeds. The way that they are expanding with only gel is worrisome those bullets didn't have to go through hide let alone a bone and still only getting 14" of penetration isn't adequate in my opinion.

Did you see notice the weight of this particular projectile?

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[Buckmaster7600]

Did you see notice the weight of this particular projectile?

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The 405 that he hollowed it was 350 or something like that.