Good Column on Non-lead Ammo

[airedale]

The "Walking Lead Zombie Apocalypse" that is what some seem to being trying to imply. Humans have been eating game shot with lead bullets for hundreds of years. Millions and Millions of tons of meat shot with those lead bullets have been consumed, can anyone show me any incidents of people getting lead poisoning from eating game harvested with a firearm using lead. Where are all these sick and dying people because by the way some represent lead bullets there should be thousands of them? 

 

The picture of a retarded kid's appendix who swallowed a handful of shot and the corny speculated story to go along with it has no sway with me.

 

Every stinking thing we eat these days seems to have somebody coming up with something in it that is bad and will kill you. The least of my worries is eating a deer I killed with a lead core bullet!! I will butcher properly and enjoy with zero fear!

 

Al

Edited March 10, 2016 by airedale

[Four Season Whitetail's]

The "Walking Lead Zombie Apocalypse" that is what some seem to being trying to imply. Humans have been eating game shot with lead bullets for hundreds of years. Millions and Millions of tons of meat shot with those lead bullets have been consumed, can anyone show me any incidents of people getting lead poisoning from eating game harvested with a firearm using lead. Where are all these sick and dying people because by the way some represent lead bullets there should be thousands of them? 

 

The picture of a retarded kid's appendix who swallowed a handful of shot and the corny speculated story to go along with it has no sway with me.

 

Every stinking thing we eat these days seems to have somebody coming up with something in it that is bad and will kill you. The least of my worries is eating a deer I killed with a lead core bullet!! I will butcher properly and enjoy with zero fear!

 

Al

All fear mongering.  If you pay attention to to many of the hot topic's in today politics you will see more of the same.

 

Way off thread but my Fav is the picture of the same dead deer that died from EHD that they put up when a new case of CWD is found..In Any State! lol.  Ny,Ohio,Pa..All the same picture. Funny Sh!t right there.

 

Great Post Air!

[mike rossi]

 

 

The picture of a retarded kid's appendix who swallowed a handful of shot and the corny speculated story to go along with it has no sway with me.

 

 

 

 

 

If your life depended on it, you would hedge your bet the kid swallowed the pellets because he was acting out on all he heard about lead pellets from adult hunters.  And you know that is how you would hedge your bet, sway or not. 

 

And, to mislead kids to the extent they do that is pretty lame. I think it is representative of the level of irresponsibility the overall  hunting community has had with the matter of lead ammo.  

[airedale]

I don't bet my life on what some retarded kid does, how about you, if your life depended on it would back the tall tale you came up with? More likely than not that kid was purposely trying to harm himself and did,

 

I do not know of any hunters that claim eating lead shot is perfectly OK and will not cause some harm, Like I pointed out earlier if that kid had swallowed a handful of non toxic shot he would have still more than likely clogged up his appendix. had it been non toxic shot I doubt the photo would have ever been posted!

 

I do not know any hunters that find any lead in the game they take and purposely leave it there to be eaten.

 

Standard procedure 101, butcher your game properly,  remove all bloodshot meat and any bullet fragments and discard. Fire up the grill and enjoy your venison.

 

Al

 

 

Edited March 10, 2016 by airedale

[Curmudgeon]

The "Walking Lead Zombie Apocalypse" that is what some seem to being trying to imply. Humans have been eating game shot with lead bullets for hundreds of years. Millions and Millions of tons of meat shot with those lead bullets have been consumed, can anyone show me any incidents of people getting lead poisoning from eating game harvested with a firearm using lead. Where are all these sick and dying people because by the way some represent lead bullets there should be thousands of them? 

 

The picture of a retarded kid's appendix who swallowed a handful of shot and the corny speculated story to go along with it has no sway with me.

 

Every stinking thing we eat these days seems to have somebody coming up with something in it that is bad and will kill you. The least of my worries is eating a deer I killed with a lead core bullet!! I will butcher properly and enjoy with zero fear!

 

Al

 

 

Yes, lead has been used for hundreds of years. For most of that history, single bullets have been low speed projectiles fired with black powder. The fragmentation issue was extremely limited. The advent of high speed, high powered rifles resulted in bullets fragmenting into hundreds of tiny pieces. It necessitated a change in bullet design that is still ongoing. Since very few deer were consumed in NYS during the first half of the last century, the consumption of significant amounts of lead from a venison source didn't really start until after most of us were born.

 

In the doses we are discussing, lead does not turn humans into drooling "zombies". I remember as a kid biting into shot in rabbit and pheasant. The same is true later in life from turkey. We used to hunt them with lead shot. Maybe my IQ is 5 points lower than it would have been. I certainly could use those 5 points now, if for no other reason than to argue with you guys. Maybe my children have lower IQs than they would have. I can't change the past but my granddaughters do not eat game killed with lead.

 

There is a study of humans who consume lead killed game. It compared several cohorts including urban people who live in dilapidated housing with old urban infrastructure. It turns out that the urban cohort has higher blood lead levels than the game eaters. However, the game eaters have higher blood lead levels that those in similar environments that do not eat game killed with lead.

 

For those of you who continue to use lead bullets, there will be some lead in your meat. More or less depending on the butchering methods, bullet design and shot placement. You are welcome to eat all you want. The question is, are you willing to risk your child's future? There will be no "apocalypse". Maybe some trouble with the math homework but not an apocalypse. CDC says "no level is safe". Who is willing to risk themselves or their kids?

 

Mike - I considered the comments on toxicities in wild fish to be a red herring so didn't bother with them. Red Herrings can be toxic too. I paraphrase this as: "We should not be concerned about any one contaminant because we eat others."

 

Lead accumulates in bone. It mimics calcium in the body. Secondary poisoning from lead in bone might happen with small animals consumed by raptors but is probably minimal. When you look at blood lead levels in larger raptors, the of peaks and valleys are perfectly timed with big game season. The lead isotopes are the same as lead in bullets. When blood copper levels are examined, even the copper isotopes match bullet jackets. The propaganda that eagles and condors are getting the lead from some other source is just that, propaganda. These birds eat only meat. They do not eat flaking paint off the front porch.

 

Women of child bearing age are another matter, especially those that nurse. They draw calcium from their bones to supplement what is not provided from their diet. A female with an early diet with lead is not only affected herself, her yet to be conceived children may well be affected. "Lead moves from where it is stored in a mother's skeleton, during later pregnancy and lactation, when the need for calcium increases."  and  ".......... human milk is the most important food source for infants. Breast milk can, however, also be a pathway of maternal excretion of toxic elements such as lead."- http://www.lead.org.au/lanv6n2/update002.html& http://www.lead.org.au/lanv6n2/update014.html

 

Edited March 10, 2016 by Curmudgeon

[airedale]

There is no dispute about the harmful effects of lead on human health, the dispute is how much lead is being consumed from game that is killed with a lead core bullet. I maintain that the amount of lead consumed from a properly butchered deer would be insignificant to a person's health over their lifetime. 

 

 

Al

[shawnhu]

Yes, lead has been used for hundreds of years. For most of that history, single bullets have been low speed projectiles fired with black powder. The fragmentation issue was extremely limited. The advent of high speed, high powered rifles resulted in bullets fragmenting into hundreds of tiny pieces. It necessitated a change in bullet design that is still ongoing. Since very few deer were consumed in NYS during the first half of the last century, the consumption of significant amounts of lead from a venison source didn't really start until after most of us were born.

In the doses we are discussing, lead does not turn humans into drooling "zombies". I remember as a kid biting into shot in rabbit and pheasant. The same is true later in life from turkey. We used to hunt them with lead shot. Maybe my IQ is 5 points lower than it would have been. I certainly could use those 5 points now, if for no other reason than to argue with you guys. Maybe my children have lower IQs than they would have. I can't change the past but my granddaughters do not eat game killed with lead.

There is a study of humans who consume lead killed game. It compared several cohorts including urban people who live in dilapidated housing with old urban infrastructure. It turns out that the urban cohort has higher blood lead levels than the game eaters. However, the game eaters have higher blood lead levels that those in similar environments that do not eat game killed with lead.

For those of you who continue to use lead bullets, there will be some lead in your meat. More or less depending on the butchering methods, bullet design and shot placement. You are welcome to eat all you want. The question is, are you willing to risk your child's future? There will be no "apocalypse". Maybe some trouble with the math homework but not an apocalypse. CDC says "no level is safe". Who is willing to risk themselves or their kids?

Mike - I considered the comments on toxicities in wild fish to be a red herring so didn't bother with them. Red Herrings can be toxic too. I paraphrase this as: "We should not be concerned about any one contaminant because we eat others."

Lead accumulates in bone. It mimics calcium in the body. Secondary poisoning from lead in bone might happen with small animals consumed by raptors but is probably minimal. When you look at blood lead levels in larger raptors, the of peaks and valleys are perfectly timed with big game season. The lead isotopes are the same as lead in bullets. When blood copper levels are examined, even the copper isotopes match bullet jackets. The propaganda that eagles and condors are getting the lead from some other source is just that, propaganda. These birds eat only meat. They do not eat flaking paint off the front porch.

Women of child bearing age are another matter, especially those that nurse. They draw calcium from their bones to supplement what is not provided from their diet. A female with an early diet with lead is not only affected herself, her yet to be conceived children may well be affected. "Lead moves from where it is stored in a mother's skeleton, during later pregnancy and lactation, when the need for calcium increases." and ".......... human milk is the most important food source for infants. Breast milk can, however, also be a pathway of maternal excretion of toxic elements such as lead."- http://www.lead.org.au/lanv6n2/update002.html& http://www.lead.org.au/lanv6n2/update014.html

If the high velocity is the issue, how come you don't advocate that we go back to black powder and slower velocities? How come you don't advocate hunters not shoot these lightning speed rifles and calibers? You can easily achieve the same by educating hunters the importance of using the proper LEAD bullet at closer ranges, but you choose not to. Instead, you choose to support the idea that banning lead is a good thing for the sport. No, it'll only serve to save a few birds, something you are passionate about, but would easily sacrifice the rest of the hunting community for. What you are doing is chipping away at the very fibers of hunting and fishing.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

[virgil]

I don't recall seeing a ban suggested in this thread.  Just a suggestion that we consider non-lead as a smarter and safer alternative.

And then, the ensuing outrage.

[shawnhu]

I don't recall seeing a ban suggested in this thread. Just a suggestion that we consider non-lead as a smarter and safer alternative.

And then, the ensuing outrage.

He can skirt the topic of lead ban all he wants, but his true intentions are a ban to save the birds.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

[airedale]

For the record I use steel shot where I have to, because my shotguns were purchased before the late eighties and not proofed for steel I had to incur the extra expense of purchasing another shotgun so I could hunt waterfowl. 

 

I have also loaded some copper bullets and tried them out but in my case they did not perform as well as I would have liked accuracy wise when compared to conventional  bullets.

 

I am not a rich person but I have a taste for double shotguns, it took awhile but over many years I scraped and saved enough money to get myself several. Because I can not use steel shot in them it costs me a small fortune to  obtain non toxic ammo so I can use them for certain types of hunting.  It raises my hackles when the holier than thou tell me "tough crap", retire those guns and buy yourself something you can use. easy to say when you are not the one left holding the bag for several grand in shotguns!

 

I have no problem switching to and hunting with non toxic shot in my doubles, I would just like to see a more concerted effort by the ammo manufactures to produce non toxic shells at a reasonable price for the hunters with shotguns from the late eighties and back.

 

Al

Edited March 10, 2016 by airedale

[Curmudgeon]

He can skirt the topic of lead ban all he wants, but his true intentions are a ban to save the birds.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

 

Shawn -

 

You really think that someone advocating a ban would come here to do so? You may not think I am very smart but I can assure you, I am not that dumb.

[Curmudgeon]

I don't recall seeing a ban suggested in this thread.  Just a suggestion that we consider non-lead as a smarter and safer alternative.

And then, the ensuing outrage.

 

Thanks Virgil.

[Rattler]

Steel shot became required for waterfowl even though it can be very harmful!

 

I once bit into a #4 steel pellet and cracked my tooth.  The pain was excruciating.  I had to get a cap put there.

 

I tried to sue the government for my expenses but no lawyer wanted to take the case.

 

[Curmudgeon]

There are some parallels that can be drawn between the use of lead ammunition and cigarettes. It used to be that cigs were accepted everywhere. Everyone had ash trays in the house, even non-smokers. Over time - as the orchestrated denial of the health impacts became background noise - smoking indoors became less and less acceptable. I see that as the direction lead ammo is going. The deniers will hold their ground as long as they can. Others will slowly change to remove lead from their diet.

[airedale]

There is a huge difference between smoking cigarettes and a person eating a deer shot with a lead core bullet.

 

The hard evidence was insurmountable showing millions of people through the years having lung cancer, heart problems emphysema, so on and so forth and dying. An idiot could see the tobacco companies were lying.

 

You show me hard evidence that millions of people eating millions of tons of deer and other game meat for several hundred years  that have been shot with a lead bullet that has been properly butchered and prepared that are sick from lead poisoning?

 

Al

Edited March 10, 2016 by airedale

[Rattler]

There are some parallels that can be drawn between the use of lead ammunition and cigarettes. It used to be that cigs were accepted everywhere. Everyone had ash trays in the house, even non-smokers. Over time - as the orchestrated denial of the health impacts became background noise - smoking indoors became less and less acceptable. I see that as the direction lead ammo is going. The deniers will hold their ground as long as they can. Others will slowly change to remove lead from their diet.

 

Interestingly, cigs prior to the war on smoking were .50 cents a pack.  In NYC today they're almost $10 a pack.  Perhaps the plan is to make copper ammo look more affordable by raising the cost of lead ammo with taxes.

 

As an aside, the smoking changes were forced upon people by the government when people didn't seem to care about the issues.

 

Edited March 10, 2016 by Rattler

[mike rossi]

Its a good thing they have these labels then huh? I mean, those poor people, being forced to ingest lead laced meat. I mean, they have so many other choices you know? Maybe we should only give them the back straps that are generally free of any tainted lead, and throw the rest away, because you know, they have a lot more options. Heck, they can simply refuse the tainted meat and go to the 5 star restaurant down the block in their hood and eat good, why bother with the chance by lowering themselves to... well, the poor. They have choices.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

 

 

What will eventually happen is the venison donation program will be banned as it was done in a couple of states. In the process of the ban, it will generate immense publicity and even support  for anti-hunting, although the concern has nothing to do with animal rights. 

[Curmudgeon]

Interestingly, cigs prior to the war on smoking were .50 cents a pack.  In NYC today they're almost $10 a pack.  Perhaps the plan is to make copper ammo look more affordable by raising the cost of lead ammo with taxes.

 

As an aside, the smoking changes were forced upon people by the government when people didn't seem to care about the issues.

 

It isn't a perfect parallel but cigarettes went from being completely acceptable in every situation to being marginalized. Science was questioned in the same way.

 

I don't understand your last sentence. People didn't care and that is why smoking was banned indoors?

 

 

Edited March 10, 2016 by Curmudgeon

[Curmudgeon]

What will eventually happen is the venison donation program will be banned as it was done in a couple of states. In the process of the ban, it will generate immense publicity and even support  for anti-hunting, although the concern has nothing to do with animal rights. 

 

I think the VDP could continue to do good work but they need to be proactive. Even if it were done quietly, it could be done.

 

Or, as shawnhu implies, let them eat cake.

 

[Rattler]

I don't understand your last sentence. People didn't care and that is why smoking was banned indoors?

 

Smokers didn't care about the issue, so it was forced on them, but only after special interest groups petitioned to have the changes forced.

[airedale]

The bottom line is with the gun hating administration we have along with all the other gun haters and animal rights groups out there and there are a lot of them with resources, if there was the least and I mean the "LEAST" amount of traction they could get by using the excuse that hunters are lead poisoning themselves along with their families there would be a full court press to push for the ban of lead bullets. The media would jump on it in a heartbeat and the blitz of any propaganda they could prove true would be unrelenting and monumental. Believe me do not think for one moment this has not occurred to them, the reason it has not happened is simple. There is no concrete evidence that  hunters eating a deer that has been taken with a lead bullet is poisoning people to the point of any significant consequence.

 

Al

Edited March 10, 2016 by airedale

[EspressoBuzz]

Smokers didn't care about the issue, so it was forced on them, but only after special interest groups petitioned to have the changes forced.

 

Yes forced on them because second hand smoke is toxic too. Just like concentrated lead in the environment effects raptors, et al.

 

I personally use plenty of lead at the range, but have switched to non-lead while hunting with all my big bore or high velocity even for coyote which I pretty much dump into a dumpster on the way home. Oddly once fine tuned I found the copper air gun ammo better than the lead. I personally just feel safer eating what I shoot and I feel better not putting concentrated lead into the environment.

Edited March 10, 2016 by EspressoBuzz

[Curmudgeon]

From across the pond:

"Controversial report claims shooting is placing thousands of children at risk of brain damage because of eating game killed with lead ammunition"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/countryside/11924359/Countryside-at-odds-over-lead-risk-to-children-who-eat-game.html