now is your chance to tell D.E.C. WHATS WRONG WITH DEER MANAGEMENT

[Four Season Whitetail's]

wasn't much time for discussion.  audience asked how much or further how they are going to promote protection of yearling bucks.  it wasn't yet known and still being thought about on how to proceed, with an emphasis on leaving it voluntary decision.  their data they've seemed to collect and draw conclusions from didn't seem to show the need to do otherwise.  lot of folks from different walks of life asking about antler restrictions but the questions were rephrased or pretty much ignored.  including if DEC intends to take another look at those areas with forced antler restrictions.  the areas and hunter satisfaction hasn't really been looked into since their implementation.  DEC said they had no current intentions to re-evaluate hunter satisfaction in those areas.  so for better or worse those areas are stuck with them legislatively for now with no idea if should be removed or kept. other generalized public concerns related to deer and ticks.  as well as urban deer population control were brought up that really can't be answered other than it's always being looked at and anything to help would be evaluated and if appropriate implemented.  other stuff in relation to buck management zones that were created were asked about and touched on.  the zones were created for the hunter satisfaction study that was done.  they would be a great platform and basis for implementing future management decisions but nothing is currently decided on for the near future.  current deer management plan ended in 2016 with nothing falling right in line for 2017.  in overly deer populated areas, Hurst seemed to now have preference to extending early bow seasons into September, over an insertion of an early muzzleloader season, and have that portion be antlerless only.  he seemed to now be onboard with ditching anything that'd restrict opportunity.

 

in the near future DEC seems to be making efforts to work with landowners, QDM co-ops, and other deer interested groups to stream line their data collection efforts to get more and better data.  this is huge.  I can see this leading to less man power/funding to collect data with more funding left to go toward something else.  also if they push to get better data they'd be allowed to see actual data and trending better.  the "painted picture" of the deer herd won't be lagging behind the actual deer herd situation so much.

 

they're more open to see results of landowners managing the deer on their own land.  as well as improving the data portion of their management tasks.  seems logical and the exact opposite of a "cart ahead of the horse" direction.

Why do you think so many are wanting to push the protection of yearling bucks?

[LetEmGrow]

This state is so broke that the pussies at the DEC will not try anything that goes against the "quantity" of deer hunting as opposed to the "quality".  

 

But it is good to see so many interested in protecting yearling bucks.  That would only mean a lot are doing it on their own.  I actually think a lot are starting to let the 90-100" 2.5 year olds go by as well.

 

Maybe if NY starts to see a population growth in the future they will get a lil more ballsy.  Funny, they flirted with it last year.  But now it seems like they have gone completely cold on the idea. 

 

 

[Doc]

 

But it is good to see so many interested in protecting yearling bucks.  That would only mean a lot are doing it on their own.  I actually think a lot are starting to let the 90-100" 2.5 year olds go by as well.

Eventually, hunters can start passing on 3.5  and 4.5, and 5.5 year olds. WTH, let's take it all the way and convert deer hunting into deer watching ..... lol.

[SteveB]

Why do you think so many are wanting to push the protection of yearling bucks?

So they can shoot them all as 2.5's with a 95" rack.

[dbHunterNY]

Why do you think so many are wanting to push the protection of yearling bucks?

 

some have a delusional thought that it'll all of the sudden give them record book antlers.  others know it'll have 95" deer running around that they can shoot at and be perfectly happy with a set of antlers that size.  many just probably think it'd be nice to see some bucks while on stand and enjoy watching them for once just act like deer instead of targets running the gauntlet.  others in some areas of the state are most likely concerned that, as you've stated, it's an issue with the peak of rutting activity and breeding taking place during the middle of the hunting season and when people are knocking them down before they can seek out enough doe to do part of what they're put on this earth to do.  I could keep going... I'm sure there's a lot of varying reasons why hunters would.  we're a diverse bunch of individuals.

[dbHunterNY]

Eventually, hunters can start passing on 3.5  and 4.5, and 5.5 year olds. WTH, let's take it all the way and convert deer hunting into deer watching ..... lol.

 

in areas I've hunted in regions 4,5, and 8 the trigger fingers start getting pretty twitchy once they see a 2.5 year old.  3.5 yr old buck usually trips the trigger without thought of "should I let this go".  some private land situations are a little different but would be the exception I'd think.  out here in region 4 I've found that passing practically all yearlings and a small portion of 2.5 yr olds is the limit of what general hunting public is excepting of.  beyond that you're trying to get trophy bucks with unrealistic goals when dealing with such a large portion of the hunters with varying goals.  I completely acknowledge and in life outside these forums procure exemptions for portions of hunters, like first time hunters of any age and youth hunters. outside of my specific area I help manage I'm even open to others reasons.

 

you just can't expect acceptable success, acceptable opportunity, and satisfaction of the majority to exist if you're passing bucks 3.5+ yrs old in my opinion.

[Larry]

Letem grow it seems obvious that you have never sat down and talked to the “Pussies”at the DEC. You sound like the guy who stands up at one of their meetings and point your finger at them and tell them you don’t know shit about deer management. I can do it better than you. Well dude what they did was if you own land then you can manage deer the way you want on your land. But your neighbors can manage deer the way they want on their land. What you want is to tell other hunters that don’t hunt the same way you do. That they can’t because it’s not your way.

[gjs4]

wasn't much time for discussion.  audience asked how much or further how they are going to promote protection of yearling bucks.  it wasn't yet known and still being thought about on how to proceed, with an emphasis on leaving it voluntary decision.  their data they've seemed to collect and draw conclusions from didn't seem to show the need to do otherwise.  lot of folks from different walks of life asking about antler restrictions but the questions were rephrased or pretty much ignored.  including if DEC intends to take another look at those areas with forced antler restrictions.  the areas and hunter satisfaction hasn't really been looked into since their implementation.  DEC said they had no current intentions to re-evaluate hunter satisfaction in those areas.  so for better or worse those areas are stuck with them legislatively for now with no idea if should be removed or kept. other generalized public concerns related to deer and ticks.  as well as urban deer population control were brought up that really can't be answered other than it's always being looked at and anything to help would be evaluated and if appropriate implemented.  other stuff in relation to buck management zones that were created were asked about and touched on.  the zones were created for the hunter satisfaction study that was done.  they would be a great platform and basis for implementing future management decisions but nothing is currently decided on for the near future.  current deer management plan ended in 2016 with nothing falling right in line for 2017.  in overly deer populated areas, Hurst seemed to now have preference to extending early bow seasons into September, over an insertion of an early muzzleloader season, and have that portion be antlerless only.  he seemed to now be onboard with ditching anything that'd restrict opportunity.

 

in the near future DEC seems to be making efforts to work with landowners, QDM co-ops, and other deer interested groups to stream line their data collection efforts to get more and better data.  this is huge.  I can see this leading to less man power/funding to collect data with more funding left to go toward something else.  also if they push to get better data they'd be allowed to see actual data and trending better.  the "painted picture" of the deer herd won't be lagging behind the actual deer herd situation so much.

 

they're more open to see results of landowners managing the deer on their own land.  as well as improving the data portion of their management tasks.  seems logical and the exact opposite of a "cart ahead of the horse" direction.

When did he mention the preference of archery over the early ml? I saw his presentation once and heard it the second day here and gathered the contrary opinion.

 

Unless a group wants more deer killed I (personally) do not see the DEC ever agreeing with other opinions.

[gjs4]

Unless you have thousands of acres (and i'm not even sure of that relevance) you cant manage a herd. Your neighbors mean more to your NY property than soil nutrients, plots, etc. a few prongs to this issue...it wont change without laws and most will be as bad as their neighbor in spite of letting one walk to its death.

 

As stated above- 2 yos are NY trophies to 90% of the guys out there (at least). My brother shot a 132" 2 yo and was thrilled...I was crushed. Some people get it...most don't want to

[dbHunterNY]

When did he mention the preference of archery over the early ml? I saw his presentation once and heard it the second day here and gathered the contrary opinion.

Unless a group wants more deer killed I (personally) do not see the DEC ever agreeing with other opinions.

Not sure when he was actually unplugged. He clearly acknowledged the failure of the first two weeks of bow being doe only. There were a few options left but he mentioned he seemed to be more fond of an early September season versus extended late season. come to think of it I'm not sure if it's ml or bow. It has to do with over populated areas though and some can't be ml.

[dbHunterNY]

Unless you have thousands of acres (and i'm not even sure of that relevance) you cant manage a herd. Your neighbors mean more to your NY property than soil nutrients, plots, etc. a few prongs to this issue...it wont change without laws and most will be as bad as their neighbor in spite of letting one walk to its death.

As stated above- 2 yos are NY trophies to 90% of the guys out there (at least). My brother shot a 132" 2 yo and was thrilled...I was crushed. Some people get it...most don't want to

I don't think you can bank on changing genetics but I do agree you can def let young bucks that big walk to try and get most out of any good genetics that show themselves. ....as long as you're ok with risk of the bucks getting shot.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

some have a delusional thought that it'll all of the sudden give them record book antlers.  others know it'll have 95" deer running around that they can shoot at and be perfectly happy with a set of antlers that size.  many just probably think it'd be nice to see some bucks while on stand and enjoy watching them for once just act like deer instead of targets running the gauntlet.  others in some areas of the state are most likely concerned that, as you've stated, it's an issue with the peak of rutting activity and breeding taking place during the middle of the hunting season and when people are knocking them down before they can seek out enough doe to do part of what they're put on this earth to do.  I could keep going... I'm sure there's a lot of varying reasons why hunters would.  we're a diverse bunch of individuals.

Yeah you flirted with everything but the real reason... They all want bigger antlers and higher scoring bucks.  Not real hard to see. Shows its not just a few are passing little guys to let them become...Big Guys and with that comes inches!

[gjs4]

Not sure when he was actually unplugged. He clearly acknowledged the failure of the first two weeks of bow being doe only. There were a few options left but he mentioned he seemed to be more fond of an early September season versus extended late season. come to think of it I'm not sure if it's ml or bow. It has to do with over populated areas though and some can't be ml.

Yeah I definitely missed the bow over gun part but caught the rest.

[gjs4]

I don't think you can bank on changing genetics but I do agree you can def let young bucks that big walk to try and get most out of any good genetics that show themselves. ....as long as you're ok with risk of the bucks getting shot.

I agree with this- I just disagree with most properties being a practical size whereas your neighbors don't effect yours..... Especially with taking the Bucks that are passed.

Genetics is far beyond NY discussion.

[dbHunterNY]

Yeah you flirted with everything but the real reason... They all want bigger antlers and higher scoring bucks.  Not real hard to see. Shows its not just a few are passing little guys to let them become...Big Guys and with that comes inches!

 

well I guess you continue to have your opinion and I've got mine.  do not all but most hunters want bigger than a yearlings set of antlers, which is the smallest you can get?  probably. passing up yearling bucks seems to be where we're currently at in this state as a whole.  yearling bucks having around 30% of their potential antler growth and being such a topic of discussion I think shows antlers could be a factor but by far isn't the primary factor of concern.  if that wasn't the case, general hunting public included, would all be trophy deer managers and the conversation of shooting anything other than a 4.5-6.5+ year old buck nearly at it's maximum antler growth potential would ever come up.

[dbHunterNY]

I agree with this- I just disagree with most properties being a practical size whereas your neighbors don't effect yours..... Especially with taking the Bucks that are passed.

Genetics is far beyond NY discussion.

 

much of the reason co-ops form.  seeing less and less 100+ acre properties.  your neighbors definitely have to be your partners when it comes to deer management.  you can have multiple 1000 acre pieces around your 50 or less acres but as Culver has said in these forums if it's right fifty acres you can see a lot of the deer that live on those properties.  opposite to that if those properties do have good practices then I makes your small piece really shine and makes you feel at ease when that buck or doe passes through and steps over the property boundary that you feel should live to benefit the local deer herd.

[Larry]

You have to be realistic on what you are looking for. the following is from Charles J Alsheimer’s book strategies for Whitetails: Frankly, in the majority of whitetail habitats a 140 to 145-inch is as close to top-end as it gets. To expect anything more is wishful thinking.

[dbHunterNY]

I don't hunt deer alot--- maybe one day a year. BUT- if someone told me that the opening day of crossbow deer season would be the very same day as the regular bow season opener----I would buy a crossbow and practise and would be out there in the deer woods on the opener. The DEC Regs guide had crossbow regs that you had to just sign and keep in your wallet. Still have that I believe. I think alot more people would hunt deer if the Crossbow opener was the SAME day as the Bow deer opener.

 

it can be tough to find private hunting ground and tough to deal with other hunters trying to hunt the same public ground, but hunter recruitment is always a good thing.  that's why I'm for crossbows despite not having intentions of getting one.

 

if DEC pursues the September season and crossbows are legislated in as normal archery weapons then it'll be like turkey hunting.  foliage will still be on trees, grass will be green, could be warm with the sun shining, only the deer will look a little better than they do this time of year, having more meat on their bones.

Edited May 19, 2016 by dbHunterNY

[Four Season Whitetail's]

well I guess you continue to have your opinion and I've got mine.  do not all but most hunters want bigger than a yearlings set of antlers, which is the smallest you can get?  probably. passing up yearling bucks seems to be where we're currently at in this state as a whole.  yearling bucks having around 30% of their potential antler growth and being such a topic of discussion I think shows antlers could be a factor but by far isn't the primary factor of concern.  if that wasn't the case, general hunting public included, would all be trophy deer managers and the conversation of shooting anything other than a 4.5-6.5+ year old buck nearly at it's maximum antler growth potential would ever come up.

Agreed but they sure aint passing them to let them get longer eyelashes or put on 40 pounds. The guys that are passing are passing for future inches ( as shown is the majority) and all the rest are not passing anyways and will blast the first legal deer. 

[gjs4]

much of the reason co-ops form. seeing less and less 100+ acre properties. your neighbors definitely have to be your partners when it comes to deer management. you can have multiple 1000 acre pieces around your 50 or less acres but as Culver has said in these forums if it's right fifty acres you can see a lot of the deer that live on those properties. opposite to that if those properties do have good practices then I makes your small piece really shine and makes you feel at ease when that buck or doe passes through and steps over the property boundary that you feel should live to benefit the local deer herd.

I fully get what you're saying but that likelihood is not as prevalent when you get closer to urban areas. Adjacent to the family farm we have an old railroad bed (110 feet wide by a mile+ long) owned by some city folks.. Dirt bikes all summer- crossbows and guns all fall... They shoot anything they see. Have counted up to 2 dozen guys. That's just one set of neighbors. We used to let them retrieve what they shot and they started lobbing more so we said no more access for any reason. Found 6 two years ago and parts of two on that border this year. Can't counteract that easily Have heaven on our side but some deer just want to to get shot at even after we "train them" to avoid certain borders.

In general my experience has been our qdm/tdm efforts have been most enjoyed by the neighbors.... But then again I won't let be an excuse to lower my standards. Just aggravation that many of us know.

[dbHunterNY]

I fully get what you're saying but that likelihood is not as prevalent when you get closer to urban areas. Adjacent to the family farm we have an old railroad bed (110 feet wide by a mile+ long) owned by some city folks.. Dirt bikes all summer- crossbows and guns all fall... They shoot anything they see. Have counted up to 2 dozen guys. That's just one set of neighbors. We used to let them retrieve what they shot and they started lobbing more so we said no more access for any reason. Found 6 two years ago and parts of two on that border this year. Can't counteract that easily Have heaven on our side but some deer just want to to get shot at even after we "train them" to avoid certain borders.

In general my experience has been our qdm/tdm efforts have been most enjoyed by the neighbors.... But then again I won't let be an excuse to lower my standards. Just aggravation that many of us know.

 

sometimes you just have to roll with what you've got.  my parent's farm is on the boarder of our QDM co-op.  that boarder is a little woods that boarders a village.  I don't think it's as bad as your situation but I do know stuff dies down there.  hard to tell what as theirs just too many hunters hunting too many parcels to keep in contact with to know.  it's pretty public what our standards are so they might not be shooting anything legal but hard to say.

[gjs4]

I also have a very busy road and another set of neighbors with 3/4 of their farm being ag that add 1-2 years onto every 2.5 yo they kill.....

It's supposed to be fun right? The best thing a serious deer manager can do in NY is buy a plane ticket

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[gjs4]

And VIOLA- NYON news cover tauts impending early ml season. Boy did the department of egotistical conversation due us right

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[Four Season Whitetail's]

I also have a very busy road and another set of neighbors with 3/4 of their farm being ag that add 1-2 years onto every 2.5 yo they kill.....

It's supposed to be fun right? The best thing a serious deer manager can do in NY is buy a plane ticket

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The best thing a manager with enough property can do is his own style management. 90% could..and are..doing a better job setting the rules on harvests on their properties. Just have to have enough land for the mix.

[gjs4]

I agree with you FSW. The issue is 98% of NYers don't have enough property.

Did some consulting in the past and occasionally for friends. It's easy to layout ground within itself but factoring in neighbors and the overall flow makes it exponentially more difficult. Let's face it- they'll roam where and when they want. Hollywood stars have money beyond the fantasy of the poor but revert to drugs and crime which those with nothing do as well, right? Does, odd food source, off wind...whatever it is they'll do something dumb by our logic. How many get smacked by vehicles each year? Even ranches in Texas that may be 3-30,000 acres have fences.

Totally agree with your statement on the number one management principal being trigger control....heck we live it, right? But our neighbors and fraternity keep our success with our own self control to a minimum.

The stud I killed last year had his back filleted wide open from what I would bet on being a rifle shot and having him on cam all year I know it was in September. We have screening and frequent patrol in an area where everybody sees everything..... Still happened. My plots, bedding, travel, scouting and trigger control did nothing there.

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