lead in ammunition

[jjb4900]

 

 I've not heard of hunters getting lead poison from eating wild game shot with lead bullets.  Maybe it has happened, but I haven't heard of those incidents.

- The lead levels of sample populations which eat wild game is generally about the same as the US population as a whole, if not slightly lower.

where did this come from? Did you read the posts?

 

And while there is some evidence to suggest that raptors and certain birds are more affected by the lead in game carcass, are any of those populations shrinking or under threat because of lead bullets?

some evidence? and are we only concerned about poisoning these birds if it causes a shrinking population?

 

Again referring to the Condor discussion in CA, that state's wildlife officials acknowledged (after the lead ban went into effect) there were other sources of contamination that were affecting that bird.

​the lead ban still has not gone completely into affect(2019), where else did they get the lead? 

 

Yes, there are other places, countries, that environmentally do horrific things, and this lead issue may seem trivial, but it is something you and I can do something about. I personally can't do anything about the raw sewage dumped into Rio's harbor, or Japan's slaughtering dolphins for pet food, or the Chinese dog meat festival, but I am trying to do my part here to stop the needless suffering of eagles and limit the possibilities of lead poisoning in children.

 

I think the kids have a higher risk of getting lead poisoning from the ancient plumbing in some of the schools.......just saw something on that recently.

[vlywaterman]

Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. And that is not an easy fix.

But here is the thing, it's not like getting AIDS or cancer or the measles, you can get a lethal amount of lead or enough to make you very sick, but it is very rare. But what science is saying is that a tiny bit affects you, more will affect you more and so on and so on. I'm not doing a good job getting that point across, the CDC says there is no amount for kids that has no negative effect. There is no safe level.

So, can you get more lead from paint, yes, have lead levels in kids dropped over the last 30 years, yes,,,,,, but why add to the lead in our children if we can easily take one tiny bit away?

[airedale]

There will be no lead added to anyone's diet if game meat is butchered properly and care is taken to remove any metal bullet fragments from around the wound channel. ANY bloodshot meat suspected of contamination should be discarded. Perceived problem SOLVED!

 

Al

[airedale]

Can you give an exact number of Eagle deaths per year that can be positively linked to eating lead bullets from a gutpile that will stand up in a court of law?

 

Lets put things into some kind of perspective 

 

There are over a million car deer collisions a year causing around 200 human deaths along with thousands of serious injuries and millions and millions and million of dollars in damage.

 

It is estimated there are one million assorted animals killed on America's roads "every single day."

 

Through the course of farming, the tilling of land and mechanized harvesting of crops kill 10s of millions of animals every year.

 

Even the mowing of lawns kills millions of small animals.

 

Those are some pretty sobering and REAL numbers and a REAL problem for animals but it will surely continue because lawns will be still be mowed, farmers will till their land and harvest crops and there will be more and vehicles added to our highways every year and the carnage will go on.

 

But these animals are not Eagles are they,  just lowly Deer, Dogs, Cats, Fox, Coons, Coyotes, Bears, Rabbits Squirrels, Possums Skunks, Rats, Mice, assorted small Birds, Reptiles and Bugs etc etc.

 

This Eagle-traditional ammo debate the perfect example of making Mount Everest out of a mole hill.

 

Al

 

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2016 by airedale

[vlywaterman]

If you want to read the science, you can read this summary of quite a few studies.

http://www.scientifi...ammunition-ban/

 

Hunter butchered game is much cleaner(leadwise)than commercially processed venison, but it still may contain lead. This study, not hypothetical, real hunters, real deer, real bullets.  study:http://huntingwithno... in Venison.pdf

 

Results. Lead was ultimately detected in 30 of 199 commercially processed samples, a prevalence of 15% (Table 1). The mean lead concentration found among those pantry samples positive for lead was 15.9 mg/kg ± 32.5 std. dev. The mean lead concentration found among all pantry samples was 2.4 mg/kg ± 13.8 std. dev. 

Lead was detected in 8 of 98 hunter samples, a prevalence of 8%. Seven of the eight positives were from ground meat; one was from a whole cut. The mean lead concentration found among those hunter samples positive for lead was 21.8 mg/kg ± 67.1 std. dev. The mean lead concentration found among all hunter samples was 1.8 mg/kg ± 19.8 std. dev. 

 

I think this was in an earlier post, but do you really think you could find all this lead? a deer shot in the chest.

 

[vlywaterman]

lost the image,

[airedale]

When I am done butchering a Deer the amount of lead left behind if any will be so small that it would be insignificant to human health!

 

Al

[Curmudgeon]

What I am reading in the recent spate of post is, there are big intractable problems, therefore, we should not take simple, effective and inexpensive measures to reduce scavenger lead poisonings, and the amount of lead in venison.

[airedale]

I have offered many times in these threads and I am sure this will not be the last time a simple effective and very inexpensive way to reduce lead in game meat. When butchering, carefully take your time to remove any and all suspicious meat that may or may not contain metallic fragments and discard it. The amount of lead if any that is left behind will be insignificant to human health.

 

 

Al

Edited July 9, 2016 by airedale

[Padre86]

 

 And while there is some evidence to suggest that raptors and certain birds are more affected by the lead in game carcass, are any of those populations shrinking or under threat because of lead bullets?

some evidence? and are we only concerned about poisoning these birds if it causes a shrinking population?

 

Again referring to the Condor discussion in CA, that state's wildlife officials acknowledged (after the lead ban went into effect) there were other sources of contamination that were affecting that bird.

​the lead ban still has not gone completely into affect(2019), where else did they get the lead? 

 

Yes, there are other places, countries, that environmentally do horrific things, and this lead issue may seem trivial, but it is something you and I can do something about. I personally can't do anything about the raw sewage dumped into Rio's harbor, or Japan's slaughtering dolphins for pet food, or the Chinese dog meat festival, but I am trying to do my part here to stop the needless suffering of eagles and limit the possibilities of lead poisoning in children.

 

 

 

How many raptors and birds all together in the US are dying or have serious health issues because of lead bullets?  How many are dying because of lead poisoning relative to a whole slue of other causes (both natural and manmade)?  This is my point, that people like to pick and choose what they get outraged over.  They will throw a fit when a small portion of birds die from lead poisoning, but have no qualms whatsoever about hundreds of thousands, millions by some estimates, dying annually from solar panels, wind turbines.

 

An average of 116 Golden Eagles have died annually from turbines at just one wind farm in CA, according to a report:  http://savetheeaglesinternational.org/new/us-windfarms-kill-10-20-times-more-than-previously-thought.html

 

This is why I think this whole conversation has a narrow focus.  Too many here and elsewhere are willing to make a stink out of the use of lead ammo, but its negative side affects seem marginal, almost negligible, compared to other ways we influence the environment and its inhabitants.  

 

BTW, CA's fish and wildlife acknowledged, after the ban was passed legislatively (yes I know its not fully implemented, but it has been turned into law) that there were other sources of lead and pollution which were affecting the Condor's health:

 

 

The Fish and Wildlife Service report released in October 2013 concluded that California condors continue to be exposed to lead despite California’s ban on lead ammunition in the “condor zone,” and offered explanations that included alternative sources to hunters’ bullets.

 

“[T]here are other sources of lead in the environment that condors may be accessing, including five individual condors apparently ingesting chips of lead-based paint in a fire tower (since remediated),” said the report.

 

from: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/2/lead-ammunition-ban-passed-after-feds-withheld-key/

 

 

 

What I am reading in the recent spate of post is, there are big intractable problems, therefore, we should not take simple, effective and inexpensive measures to reduce scavenger lead poisonings, and the amount of lead in venison.

 

This is perhaps a case of the glass half full or half empty, but my take is this: will removing lead bullets, and their resulting fragments from strikes, have any meaningful impact on our health and the health of other animals?  And, are there other, more pressing issues, that warrant our attention over the use of lead bullets?

 

Based on the studies I've seen so far, I think this whole topic is an argument over pennies when there is real money to be made by adopting other measures which promote a healthy environment.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Padre86

[jjb4900]

just out of curiosity, are that many animals being shot with lead ammo and not being recovered that certain birds can eat enough to get poisoned?

[Curmudgeon]

Airedale keeps repeating himself and no one disagrees. However, everyone who butchers deer needs to take equal care. As has been documented, commercial processors - on the whole - are worse at removing lead than hunters who do their own.

 

just out of curiosity, are that many animals being shot with lead ammo and not being recovered that certain birds can eat enough to get poisoned?

 

The animals being not recovered are almost an aside. It isn't the volume of meat. It is the amount of lead. Any hunter doing his/her job is putting the bullet in the chest cavity. That is where most fragmentation occurs. Those organs are left in the field where they are scavenged along with the many lead fragments, sometimes hundreds.

 

I could write hundreds of words on threats to eagles. Actually I just did but that was for a journal not a hunting forum. Just because they are not mentioned here, does not mean other sources of mortality are being ignored. This is a hunting forum and a bullet discussion. Our GPS tracking of eagles was motivated by wind development. Having reviewed many avian impact assessments for wind projects, most that I have seen can be called insufficient. Some are incompetent. Some egregiously bad.

 

The fact that GPS tracked eagles are leading us, and others to sources of lead - and being poisoned by them - has not been a goal of tracking research. One of those eagles - a bald eagle - is in the video. It was tracked to where a commercial processor dumped his trimmings. Another, dead eagle was found near it. A different eagle led us to a pile of pigs dumped by USDA.

 

About 60% of golden eagles in the lower 48 are suffering from at least low level lead poisoning (above 10) in late fall and winter (based on 239 blood samples from wild eagles, 190 on the Rocky Mtn Front, 49 in the Appalachians). I don't have equivalent bald eagle data but they scavenge more than goldens so cannot be expected to be lower.

 

I actually thought this thread was played out a while ago. But if you guys want to continue it, I will continue to state that yes, changing ammo makes a difference. It is an easy and effective way for an individual who cares about wildlife to make a positive difference.
 

[jjb4900]

Coyotes must be suffering from lead poisoning at an alarming rate....I would think they get to the guts a lot quicker then the Birds do.

[airedale]

Lets keep rocking and rolling.

 

Absent sound scientific evidence demonstrating a population impact caused by the use of traditional ammunition, there is no justification for restricting or banning its use. With very limited exceptions, such as waterfowl and possibly the California condor – where the evidence of a causal connection to spent ammunition fragments is far from conclusive, there is simply no sound scientific evidence that the use by hunters of traditional ammunition is causing harm to wildlife populations. In the case of raptors, there is a total lack of any scientific evidence of a population impact. In fact, just the opposite is true. Hunters have long used traditional ammunition, yet raptor populations have significantly increased all across North America – a trend that shows no sign of letting up. If the use of traditional ammunition was the threat to raptor populations some make it out to be, these populations would not be soaring as they are. Considering that traditional ammunition accounts for only about 5% of all domestic uses of lead, according to the USGS, it is no surprise that traditional ammunition does not cause harm to animal populations.

 

 Benefits of Traditional Ammunition and Threats if a Ban Occurs The excise tax dollars (11 percent) manufacturers pay on the sale of ammunition – the very ammunition some groups choose to demonize – is the primary source of wildlife conservation funding in the United States and the financial backbone of the North American Model of wildlife conservation. The bald eagle’s recovery, a truly great conservation success story, was made possible and funded by hunters using traditional ammunition. In fact, recent statistics from the United States Fish and Wildlife Service show that from 1981 to 2006 the number of breeding pairs of bald eagles in  the United States increased 724 percent. And much like the bald eagle, raptor populations throughout the United States are soaring. Needlessly restricting or banning traditional ammunition absent sound science will hurt wildlife conservation efforts as fewer hunters take to the field thereby undercutting financial wildlife management resources. 

 

[Padre86]

 

I could write hundreds of words on threats to eagles. Actually I just did but that was for a journal not a hunting forum. Just because they are not mentioned here, does not mean other sources of mortality are being ignored. This is a hunting forum and a bullet discussion. Our GPS tracking of eagles was motivated by wind development. Having reviewed many avian impact assessments for wind projects, most that I have seen can be called insufficient. Some are incompetent. Some egregiously bad.

 

The fact that GPS tracked eagles are leading us, and others to sources of lead - and being poisoned by them - has not been a goal of tracking research. One of those eagles - a bald eagle - is in the video. It was tracked to where a commercial processor dumped his trimmings. Another, dead eagle was found near it. A different eagle led us to a pile of pigs dumped by USDA.

 

About 60% of golden eagles in the lower 48 are suffering from at least low level lead poisoning (above 10) in late fall and winter (based on 239 blood samples from wild eagles, 190 on the Rocky Mtn Front, 49 in the Appalachians). I don't have equivalent bald eagle data but they scavenge more than goldens so cannot be expected to be lower.

 

I actually thought this thread was played out a while ago. But if you guys want to continue it, I will continue to state that yes, changing ammo makes a difference. It is an easy and effective way for an individual who cares about wildlife to make a positive difference.

 

 

So you give little credibility to the studies demonstrating avian deaths from wind and solar projects, while giving full credibility to studies which demonstrate lead poisoning from bullets?  For what it's worth, there are quite a few studies establishing the link between these projects and bird deaths.  It's hard to determine the exact number of deaths attributed to this issue (just like it is for lead poisoning), but most of these studies do acknowledge that the deaths number anywhere from hundreds of thousands to millions every year.  Are the number of birds dying from ingesting lead bullets anywhere close to that?

 

And how do we know 60% of golden eagles in the lower 48 are suffering from low levels of lead poisoning if the study you referenced only covered a sample population of 239 from two very specific regions?  

 

How do we know that all of the lead exposure was from bullets and not from other sources?

 

This conversation has turned into a battle of ideologies more than anything else, but I am perfectly willing to hear your responses to these questions, as I'm sure are others.

[Padre86]

 

The bald eagle’s recovery, a truly great conservation success story, was made possible and funded by hunters using traditional ammunition. In fact, recent statistics from the United States Fish and Wildlife Service show that from 1981 to 2006 the number of breeding pairs of bald eagles in  the United States increased 724 percent. And much like the bald eagle, raptor populations throughout the United States are soaring. Needlessly restricting or banning traditional ammunition absent sound science will hurt wildlife conservation efforts as fewer hunters take to the field thereby undercutting financial wildlife management resources. 

 

 

This statement right here reinforces what I've been saying.  How much have lead bullets truly been harming the bald eagle and other raptor populations if their numbers have experienced such a significant increase, despite the type of the ammo hunters have been using?

 

The bald eagle, and other, populations have recovered and are doing just fine in terms of numbers and diversity.  Why all of a sudden is there a push to correct the "lead bullet problem," when that "problem" seems to have an almost negligible impact on the eagle population, especially compared to other man-made issues?  I think we are bickering about pennies while there are other more pressing environmental issues that deserve our attention.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Padre86

[Four Season Whitetail's]

This statement right here reinforces what I've been saying.  How much have lead bullets truly been harming the bald eagle and other raptor populations if their numbers have experienced such a significant increase, despite the type of the ammo hunters have been using?

 

The bald eagle, and other, populations have recovered and are doing just fine in terms of numbers and diversity.  Why all of a sudden is there a push to correct the "lead bullet problem," when that "problem" seems to have an almost negligible impact on the eagle population, especially compared to other man-made issues?  I think we are bickering about pennies while there are other more pressing environmental issues that deserve our attention.

True and even if the lead bullets are taking a few birds out of the population is it worth the trade off to what will happen when the anti's and the likes use the birds to put a ban on lead altogether?  Not worth the trade off i would guess.

[vlywaterman]

This is a short easy read,  they talk about lead in ammo and in other sources poisoning the condors. Would hunters here voluntarily switch to copper if we had condors in NY? http://archive.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20140118condors-fatal-lead-poisoning.html

So many hunters I talk to mention the ban on waterfowl hunting, and that it is no big deal. But at the time, it was a big deal, and was fought with law suits and the same anti hunting propaganda,,,, but we, most of us have accepted it and it is not such a big deal. 

[vlywaterman]

Is there anyone on this forum that would allow me to come out and shoot with them? I am near Fleischmanns, but would be willing to try to bring some rounds of what you are shooting and shoot with you. I use a 30.06, but have and can possibly get some other rounds if you tell me what you shoot. Maybe you can try them out this season if you like them,  and let me know how it works out.

At least 100yds would be ideal but less is doable. 

you can email me directly at [email protected] if you prefer.

Edited July 10, 2016 by vlywaterman

[Bowguy 1]

Obama says scientific studies point to the greenhouse effect too. So much for studies. If Obama said it obviously it isn't true n scientific studies are done by left wing, tofu eating, hippie, druggie, same sex couple, know it alls trying to force their agenda on you so w minimal studies there's nothing for sure.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Bowguy 1

[Bowguy 1]

Is there anyone on this forum that would allow me to come out and shoot with them? I am near Fleischmanns, but would be willing to try to bring some rounds of what you are shooting and shoot with you. I use a 30.06, but have and can possibly get some other rounds if you tell me what you shoot. Maybe you can try them out this season if you like them, and let me know how it works out.

At least 100yds would be ideal but less is doable.

you can email me directly at [email protected] if you prefer.

You wouldn't even be allowed in my town. Might as well be waving a Hillary banner n wearing a Bear Group shirt. Does a gun actually fit in a smart car? Just wonderin.

Ah just having some fun w you. My motto is do what you want n stay the hell out of my business. You have your rights/opinions others have theirs. Information is ok but stop pushing your agenda

[Curmudgeon]

Is there anyone on this forum that would allow me to come out and shoot with them? I am near Fleischmanns, but would be willing to try to bring some rounds of what you are shooting and shoot with you. I use a 30.06, but have and can possibly get some other rounds if you tell me what you shoot. Maybe you can try them out this season if you like them,  and let me know how it works out.

At least 100yds would be ideal but less is doable. 

you can email me directly at [email protected] if you prefer.

 

With attitudes like that expressed below, it is impossible to have an intelligent reasonable conversation. You wouldn't want to shoot with someone who has already decided he knows everything about you, and none of it is good.

 

Obama says scientific studies point to the greenhouse effect too. So much for studies. If Obama said it obviously it isn't true n scientific studies are done by left wing, tofu eating, hippie, druggie, same sex couple, know it alls trying to force their agenda on you so w minimal studies there's nothing for sure.

 

 

You wouldn't even be allowed in my town. Might as well be waving a Hillary banner n wearing a Bear Group shirt. Does a gun actually fit in a smart car? Just wonderin.

Ah just having some fun w you. My motto is do what you want n stay the hell out of my business. You have your rights/opinions others have theirs. Information is ok but stop pushing your agenda

 

Edited July 10, 2016 by Curmudgeon

[DirtTime]

The above post is so silly it makes me laugh. The lack if intelligence comes from no recent facts about lead ammo is the only thing killing Eagles ( or other predatory birds etc! ). It could be lead from polluted water, or even in the land itself. This come to a "Hunting Forum" and blame the hunters for all the animals that die is becoming ludicrous! The PETA sites are this way, ---------> .

Here's the front door:

http://www.peta.org

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2016 by ....rob

[Four Season Whitetail's]

With attitudes like that expressed below, it is impossible to have an intelligent reasonable conversation. You wouldn't want to shoot with someone who has already decided he knows everything about you, and none of it is good.

Starting to sound like another guy that was on this site until he kept pushing his agenda and countering because others did not believe the crap like he did.  

 

I am sure there are a pile of other sites that have people that would agree with every of your and the other believer's thoughts.

 

Not so much here. 

[Padre86]

With attitudes like that expressed below, it is impossible to have an intelligent reasonable conversation. You wouldn't want to shoot with someone who has already decided he knows everything about you, and none of it is good.

 

There are actually quite a few on here who are willing to have an intelligent conversation on this topic and others.  But when you label those with opposing viewpoints as "angry" and imply that anyone who disagrees with you is misinformed, no one is going to take you seriously.

 

Earlier, I asked you some very earnest and direct questions about lead bullet and raptor studies you had referenced.  As well someone else had given a very thoughtful and well-articulated counter-point to your view, demonstrating that eagles, and raptor populations overall, have made a tremendous comeback over the last 20-30 years, despite our use of lead ammo.  I'm eager to see you respond to these posts and continue this conversation in a productive manner.

 

Or you can whine about how no one here is capable of an "intelligent" conversation and refuse to directly respond to others like a, well, curmudgeon.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Padre86