Mountain Rifle

[Buckmaster7600]

What open areas are there in the Adirondacks?  Except for lakes and blow-down, I haven't encountered many clearings up there.

There is a lot of open hardwoods in the Adirondacks. 2 of my 3 furthest shots have been in the Adirondacks, one about 240yds and one 190yds.


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[Salmon_Run]

Correct, now that the forever wilds lands have matured there are much more open spaces with big beech and cherry trees.

Back in the logging days the browse was different and some places covered in slash and immature growth you just could't get through and had to travel around spots...

[Padre86]

4 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

 

There is a lot of open hardwoods in the Adirondacks. 2 of my 3 furthest shots have been in the Adirondacks, one about 240yds and one 190yds.


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 In my experience, 190-240 yard shots aren't all that common up there, even in the more open mature forests.

[corydd7]

26 minutes ago, Padre86 said:

 In my experience, 190-240 yard shots aren't all that common up there, even in the more open mature forests.

In your experience would you be confident in a 7mm 08?

[Padre86]

10 minutes ago, corydd7 said:

In your experience would you be confident in a 7mm 08?

Are you asking if I think it is a good cartridge?  

[corydd7]

For the adk in mature forrest under 300 yards.

And I'm open to input from anyone on that cartridge. 

Edited March 16, 2017 by corydd7

[Padre86]

13 minutes ago, corydd7 said:

For the adk in mature forrest under 300 yards.

And I'm open to input from anyone on that cartridge. 

I suppose that depends on what game you're trying to take.  If all you're looking for is a deer rifle, then yes the 7mm-08 should work well.  Like some of the 6mm based cartridges, it is known for its flatter trajectory relative to the more traditional .308 and .30-06.  

IMHO, you won't really notice or need the flatter trajectory for typical ADK hunting.  Most realistic shots will be at or under 100 yards (I'm not saying you won't ever go out further than that, rather I'm saying longer shots aren't likely due to the terrain).  For anything 300 yards and within, .308 and .30-06 perform very well in terms of trajectory, and they do allow you to use heavier loads to take down bigger game (elk, bear, even Moose depending on the range).

Just like with cars, everyone has their favorite brand.  I prefer to have a cartridge that offers good all-around utility and is readily available (either in fully assembled rounds or for reloading), so I use a .308 rifle.  There are other cartridges that will get the job done up there.  You just have to figure out what your priorities are:  extreme long range performance; big-game loads; availability; ect.

[Buckmaster7600]

For the adk in mature forrest under 300 yards.

And I'm open to input from anyone on that cartridge. 

Very tough to beat a 7mm-08 for a deer/black bear cartridge. Fast enough, flat enough, heavy enough with very little recoil, short action and performs great with a shorter barrel "18-20." There are many articles that make some pretty good arguments for the 7mm-08 being the best deer cartridge ever made, hell if it was 35cal it would be my favorite too.

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[stubborn1VT]

Padre and Buckmaster make good points.  My vote would be for the 7mm-08 because of the relatively light recoil.  It will do anything you need it to do in a hunting situation.  It has become increasingly popular, so ammo is available.  I would shoot one if I didn't already own a 7mm Rem Mag.

[Pygmy]

9 hours ago, corydd7 said:

For the adk in mature forrest under 300 yards.

And I'm open to input from anyone on that cartridge. 

I own several rifles and enjoy shooting all of them...Last season I killed 3 deer with 3 different chamberings, a 7MM08, a .280 Rem and a 30-06.

However, my 7MM08 Mountain rifle  has been the one I have carried the most. I have killed more deer with it in the last 30 years than I have with all my other rifles combined...For deer hunting within 300 yards, you can find many chamberings that work AS WELL as the 7MM08, but you won't find one that works BETTER.

As an all around rifle, I would not hesitate to use my 7MM08 with  Barnes X bullets or premium bonded bullets( like the Nosler partition)  for elk  and moose.   The ballistics of the 7MM08 are very similar to the venerable 7X57, which has been killing critters of all sizes all over the world for over 100 years.

[Padre86]

1 hour ago, Pygmy said:

As an all around rifle, I would not hesitate to use my 7MM08 with  Barnes X bullets or premium bonded bullets( like the Nosler partition)  for elk  and moose.   The ballistics of the 7MM08 are very similar to the venerable 7X57, which has been killing critters of all sizes all over the world for over 100 years.

I would hesitate.  The 7mm-08's loads lack the mass and the energy as some of the cartridges traditionally used for elk and moose.  Not saying that you can't use 7mm-08 for such game (shot placement can make all the difference), but I think it's fair to say that there are more optimal cartridges for such applications.  Heck, I've heard of hunting guides in Alaska using 9mm to kill brown bear in self-defense.  It can be done, but I don't think anyone will argue that 9mm is the optimal pistol cartridge for such uses.

7mm-08 certainly is a great deer cartridge, but for bigger game, especially at long distances, I think other cartridges, like some of the magnums, really start to outshine it.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Padre86

[Buckmaster7600]

I would hesitate.  The 7mm-08's loads lack the mass and the energy as some of the cartridges traditionally used for elk and moose.  Not saying that you can't use 7mm-08 for such game (shot placement can make all the difference), but I think it's fair to say that there are more optimal cartridges for such applications.  Heck, I've heard of hunting guides in Alaska using 9mm to kill brown bear in self-defense.  It can be done, but I don't think anyone will argue that 9mm is the optimal pistol cartridge for such uses.
7mm-08 certainly is a great deer cartridge, but for bigger game, especially at long distances, I think other cartridges, like some of the magnums, really start to outshine it.

Optimal is in the eyes of the beholder. Inside of 300yds "really further but we will use 300" other than big bears there isn't a critter on North America that a 7mm-08 won't kill just as dead as a magnum with the same shot placement. This is more true now than ever with advancement in bullet designs.


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[Padre86]

11 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Optimal is in the eyes of the beholder. Inside of 300yds "really further but we will use 300" other than big bears there isn't a critter on North America that a 7mm-08 won't kill just as dead as a magnum with the same shot placement. This is more true now than ever with advancement in bullet designs.


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Well no doubt this is a highly subjective topic.  But there is definitely a general consensus among most guides and outfitters on which cartridges are preferred for certain big game.  Could a well-practiced hunter make a good, clean killing shot using that cartridge on a brown bear or moose at the right distance?  Maybe, under the right conditions.  Would that cartridge be his/her first choice?  I'd say probably not, but again that is subjective.  Bullet construction is important and has evolved over the years.  But momentum and energy are still very important for making effective and ethical killing shots.  The 7mm-08 is down on both of those when compared to some of the more traditional big 'big-game' cartridges.  

[Pygmy]

34 minutes ago, Padre86 said:

iI would hesitate.  The 7mm-08's loads lack the mass and the energy as some of the cartridges traditionally used for elk and moose.  Not saying that you can't use 7mm-08 for such game (shot placement can make all the difference), but I think it's fair to say that there are more optimal cartridges for such applications.  Heck, I've heard of hunting guides in Alaska using 9mm to kill brown bear in self-defense.  It can be done, but I don't think anyone will argue that 9mm is the optimal pistol cartridge for such uses.

7mm-08 certainly is a great deer cartridge, but for bigger game, especially at long distances, I think other cartridges, like some of the magnums, really start to outshine it.

I agree, Padre.....I  did not mean to suggest that the 7MM08 or the .270 or the .280 or other cartridges in that general range are OPTIMUM for large game at long range, however they are perfectly adequate with good bullets at normal ranges...

The belted magnums have a purpose, which is to kill big critters at long range with heavy for caliber bullets.

To say you need a .300 mag or a .338  to cleanly kill an elk or moose at  normal ranges is ludicrous. The .270 Win is a very popular elk rifle  among the locals out west, and in the real world, the .270 hasn't got much over the 7MM08 with equal bullet weights.

[Buckmaster7600]

Well no doubt this is a highly subjective topic.  But there is definitely a general consensus among most guides and outfitters on which cartridges are preferred for certain big game.  Could a well-practiced hunter make a good, clean killing shot using that cartridge on a brown bear or moose at the right distance?  Maybe, under the right conditions.  Would that cartridge be his/her first choice?  I'd say probably not, but again that is subjective.  Bullet construction is important and has evolved over the years.  But momentum and energy are still very important for making effective and ethical killing shots.  The 7mm-08 is down on both of those when compared to some of the more traditional big 'big-game' cartridges.  

Momentum and energy has very little to do with killing, game is killed by tissue damage and/or disruption of CNS.

Momentum "the quantity of motion of a moving body, measured as a product of its mass and velocity."

Energy, I think you meant Kinetic energy "energy that a body possesses by virtue of being in motion." Are basically the same thing.

Neither has very much to do with killing- Tissue Damage/disruption of CNS. The most important job for any projectile intended to kill is to transfer energy. A 300win mag or what ever wiz bang magnum you want to use may have an extra 1000ftlbs+ of KI over the 7mm-08 but if that 2000 of the 3800ftlbs drives the bullet into the dirt after going through the animal what did you gain other than more noise burning more powder, more recoil and the need for a longer barrel.

If one wants to shoot big game over 400yds than the "need" for a magnum becomes a real issue.

As the old saying goes "a guide out west would rather see a client show up with his beat up old deer rifle in ... chambering than a shiny new magnum any day."

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[Padre86]

10 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

Momentum and energy has absolutely nothing to do with killing, game is killed by tissue damage and/or disruption of CNS.
 

 

 

I vehemently disagree with the first part of that statement, as would most ballistics experts and hunting guides.  But I'll leave it at that since I don't think this conversation will go anywhere productive.  

[Padre86]

22 minutes ago, Pygmy said:

I agree, Padre.....I  did not mean to suggest that the 7MM08 or the .270 or the .280 or other cartridges in that general range are OPTIMUM for large game at long range, however they are perfectly adequate with good bullets at normal ranges...

The belted magnums have a purpose, which is to kill big critters at long range with heavy for caliber bullets.

To say you need a .300 mag or a .338  to cleanly kill an elk or moose at  normal ranges is ludicrous. The .270 Win is a very popular elk rifle  among the locals out west, and in the real world, the .270 hasn't got much over the 7MM08 with equal bullet weights.

I get what you're saying.  Like I said, I think there are more optimal cartridges for such uses, but you're right in that a hunter can keep a reasonable distance and focus on shot placement to make something like a 7mm-08 work for bigger game.

[Pygmy]

I apologize to the OP for getting somewhat off topic...

I have enjoyed my discussion with Padre, although our opinions and priorities may  vary somewhat...It's nice to have a good discussion with a gentleman concerning our common interests..

[sailinghudson25]

Any hunting rifle is good up there.  My concern is you think you need a 300 yard shot.  So....  you look for a place to do it.

 

Great.  Enjoy your day up there.  I'll be in the thick stuff where deer eat sleep play and get shot by me.

 

That's the problem with long range guns. You want a long shot and wait wait and wait for it 

 

The best well known adiroNyack hunters out there use some real humble basic guns.  Some enjoy bring their grandpa's 30-30.

If you don't have a good layerin outfit setup, a good pack, good boots, good glass, or a gps.  Spend money there.

Seeing deer through the brush makes or breaks a hunt.  Marking features for future hunts on the gps is second to a good pair of binos.

Or, if on public lands, a humble canoe, boat, and/or warm tent trumps a new gun.

You need these tools to do it.  The extra guns are toys.....

Edited March 16, 2017 by sailinghudson25

[stubborn1VT]

58 minutes ago, sailinghudson25 said:

Any hunting rifle is good up there.  My concern is you think you need a 300 yard shot.  So....  you look for a place to do it.

 

Great.  Enjoy your day up there.  I'll be in the thick stuff where deer eat sleep play and get shot by me.

 

That's the problem with long range guns. You want a long shot and wait wait and wait for it 

Nice of you to be so open minded and positive!  

Why not a carry a rifle that WILL shoot 300yds?  

Edited March 16, 2017 by stubborn1VT
typo, inflamitory

[Padre86]

18 minutes ago, stubborn1VT said:

Nice of you to be so open minded and positive!  

Why not a carry a rifle that WILL shoot 300yds?  Not sure what your problem with long range rifles is.  To each his own.  If he wants to find the mot open piece of hardwoods he can find -- what's it to you?  Guess you've got it all figured out for all of us.  

Bottom line, your tone is insulting.

What was so insulting about what he said?

I'm inclined to agree in that 200-300 yard shots just aren't all that common up there.  I actually spent a good bit of time this past summer looking for open areas with those kinds of distances so I could do some target shooting.  I only came up with 2 spots, only one of which had a suitable backstop.  Short of shooting over a lake or off a mountain top, the ADK's just don't have much in the way of open areas where 150+ yd shots are practical or needed.

I know some hunters up there who forgo scopes, because they know the shooting distance will be short.  It's just the way hunting is up there.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Padre86

[stubborn1VT]

I like the edit more than the original post.  I've studied language too long.  Sometimes people's tone gets on my nerves.

I realize that shots that long aren't common.  I'm just across the lake.  

The original question was what people thought of a light weight .280.  We do tend to wander from topic to topic.  

I agree you can shoot big woods with an open sight 30-30, or just about anything else...

 

[sailinghudson25]

I practice at 300, but only hunt up to 150 yards when I have a good year's worth of practice.  If I didn't get to the range, then I only do 100.

 

I see people in my hunting club up north do this,  buy a new fancy gun, then spook deer they didn't see because they didn't have binoculars or didn't have a half decent one.  They come back early because they get cold.  They come back late because they got "turned around".   Hunting is about comfort, enjoyment, and safety. 

 

I'm boring...   I say .30-06, .270, 30-30, or .308.  You can kill a deer with a 22lr, if you hit it in the right spot.  To hit it in the right spot, it takes practice.  Practice takes time and money.  All those cartridges are inexpensive and very capable.  If you're recoil sensitive, then 30-30 or a 130gr 270 with a decent weight gun.  If you reload, then it doesn't matter a ton...  If you don't, might as well make it easier on your shoulder and your wallet.

 

Also, we live in NY.  You can find weatherby round everywhere.  I could be wrong, but 257 weatherby is a tough harder to find too.

[Buckmaster7600]

Killing deer has little to do with the weapon or the projectile and everything to do with the pilgrim. This is even more important in the ADKS or any other big woods hunting. Most times you aren't in a stand or a blind and won't have a rest and time to settle in on the target. Most shooting is close and fast.

Getting to the shot is the hard part in the big woods. A light rifle that doesn't kill you when carrying the miles you have to walk to find the deer is very important.

Me personally I want a short light rifle with a low powered scope or a good peep with the ability of fast follow up shots with a bullet that will go from nose to tail or tail to nose are most important.

The 3 deer rifles I carry the most in the ADKS are a pump carbine 35whelen with a 1-4 leupold, pump carbine 358win I with a peep and a 77/44 with a 2x leupold.



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[Pygmy]

Elmer Keith, regarding hunting elk in the dark timber..." Sometimes the only shot you'll get is at the south end of a northbound bull."....