SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[Death From Above]

1 hour ago, ManicOutdoorsman92 said:

No I'm implying the natural forces at play are always attempting to regain balance, keyword attempting. And those forces are uncontrollable. Curious how does the qdma know what nature intended. Its not the quality ecosystem management association, its about keeping deer around for deer hunters however many that may be. This pretty much summed it up for me. from their homepage..
" we are hunters from all walks of life who share a passion for white-tailed deer. We believe it is our responsibility to ensure the future of white - tail deer, wildlife habitat and our heritage of hunting, as the authority on all things white-tail (oh jeez), we blend the art of hunting with the science science of management to create better deer and better deer hunting."
Notice there isnt a "as well as preserving a natural healthy ecosystem" preceding that sentence.

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Cannot argue your point that QDMA certainly wants to improve hunting through their efforts, and take into consideration what hunters want.  Typically, that means an attempt to maintain as many deer as the habitat can handle (more deer seen when hunting), and more bucks in areas where there could certainly be more than there currently are (this means more and potentially older bucks to harvest).  Don’t see where it advocates for a higher than normal number of bucks, or as many big bucks as absolutely possible.  In fact, if you read a little farther you will find this:

In today’s North American hunting culture, antlers are the most common and easily visible symbol of hunting achievement, but for QDMA members, many other rewards and benefits are equally cherished. That’s why we at QDMA measure success in memories, not in antler inches.

And to answer your question on how QDMA knows what nature intended (I assume you are referring to the topic we have been discussing which is buck to doe ratio), please look above to my post concerning how easy it is to see what nature intends as a buck to doe ration through its birthing rate (bucks:does).  I am pretty sure they advocate that same ratio, they don’t make it up to suit hunter’s desires. 

Improvement or maximize are the definitely words they stress, but within natural and habitat limits.  I have not seen anywhere that they attempt to create an unnatural balanced herd to make hunters happier.  They simply believe that due to our hunting habits, in some areas it is important that we consider adjustments to counter the unnatural and unbalanced herd that we already have (read too many does to every buck).

If QDMA doesn’t use the wording you are looking for that is fine.  However, if the process they advocate ends up producing the “balanced ecosystem” that you are looking for in the definition, then I’d suggest it isn’t worth harping on whether or not they use the words you prefer to see.

[Death From Above]

1 hour ago, ManicOutdoorsman92 said:

No problem with giving away excess as numbers arent a problem, antlers is the issue ( with some atleast)Im saying those who want more bucks should maybe think about only killing what they need, iv you got excess to give to family thats great, thats the real purpose of hunting, providing for your family in the most direct way possible, but dont be upset with less large antlered deer. The scumbag comment is more for the guys that filled buck tags here then gotta go to pa or nh to get the chance at another antlered deer even though they have all ready got the required meat for the year, and donate excess to charities. again no problem taking extras to feed your family, but if u want more antlered deer that certainly plays a role

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So are you saying that there is no other legitimate reason for hunting than to provide meat for your family or friends? 

Are you saying that guides and outfitters that provide opportunities for hunters to come and experience hunting in places such as Iowa, Colorado or Alaska are exploiting the game animals to make a living unless they verify that the hunter is in need of any meat harvested on the trip for his/her family?

If I enjoy hunting whitetails in other states because of the different methods I can use, the terrain that is different, or the different challenges that those deer provide, etc… UNLESS I need that meat that I obtain during a successful hunt, I am a “scumbag”.

These seem to follow your rationale, and if so, you are painting quite a few of your fellow hunters as scumbags.  You are posting on this thread that you hate the idea of someone else forcing their idealogy on you and taking away choice, BUT you are determining the only acceptable choice for someone else shooting what they would like to shoot.  Hope you think about that one for a minute or two.

[ManicOutdoorsman92]

 

So are you saying that there is no other legitimate reason for hunting than to provide meat for your family or friends? 

Are you saying that guides and outfitters that provide opportunities for hunters to come and experience hunting in places such as Iowa, Colorado or Alaska are exploiting the game animals to make a living unless they verify that the hunter is in need of any meat harvested on the trip for his/her family?

If I enjoy hunting whitetails in other states because of the different methods I can use, the terrain that is different, or the different challenges that those deer provide, etc… UNLESS I need that meat that I obtain during a successful hunt, I am a “scumbag”.

These seem to follow your rationale, and if so, you are painting quite a few of your fellow hunters as scumbags.  You are posting on this thread that you hate the idea of someone else forcing their idealogy on you and taking away choice, BUT you are determining the only acceptable choice for someone else shooting what they would like to shoot.  Hope you think about that one for a minute or two.

Thats right big antlers bring big bucks, and i never said one cant do it, go for it kill your trophies, but i stand by the fact that if you hunt for a rack without needing the meat, you are indeed a scumbag, your killing for pure sport, and then complain that there arent enough big bucks. And im not determining anyones ability to shoot anything im saying if you made a conscious decision to only shoot what u need, u would see more antlered deer

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[Death From Above]

36 minutes ago, ManicOutdoorsman92 said:

Thats right big antlers bring big bucks, and i never said one cant do it, go for it kill your trophies, but i stand by the fact that if you hunt for a rack without needing the meat, you are indeed a scumbag, your killing for pure sport, and then complain that there arent enough big bucks. And im not determining anyones ability to shoot anything im saying if you made a conscious decision to only shoot what u need, u would see more antlered deer
 

Very classy. 

[Dinsdale]

I want to see this pass just for the resulting thread(s) on it!

Now THAT would be entertaining.

[ManicOutdoorsman92]

Very classy. 

Why thankyou! I take real pride in my in how I present myself.

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[growalot]

I'm waiting  for the harvest threads when crossbow and this passes...

[stubby68]

27 minutes ago, Dinsdale said:

I want to see this pass just for the resulting thread(s) on it!

Now THAT would be entertaining.

Pass or not I will not be changing a thing. I pay for the tag I'm filling it. And I know I will not be the only one. The Dec nor anyone else knows or can even come close with a guess how many of what age are out there or have been taken. Nor do they know what the herd numbers really are. The checks they do are very few trend far between in most of the state. Even if every tag was reported they wouldn't know what are due the animals were. Antler size or number of points say nothing about age. I have seen spikes taken that were a rendered at 5 plus years. I have 2 10 points that are both arendgegedged at 1 1/2. One is twice the size of the other both in rack and body size. Both taken in same woods during the same season. One by myself and one by my uncle. I also have a 3 1/2 year old that is a 4 point and the rack will sit in a ice cream bowl. 

                   Until someone can explain to me how only shooting big old bucks is making the herd better for the animals and not just for the wall then I will shoot what I want. How does killing all the old deer and letting all the young ones walk help the herd. I thought we wanted good age structure. Leavening all young and killing all old puts the balance toward the young and isn't that against what everyone wants? I mean everyone says old means big and big is what they want right. Everyone complains they do not see enough old big bucks too many small young ones. 

[Matthewsshooter]

If it passes you will be paying for a tag that in some areas will have restrictions.  Assume you mean by " not changing a thing", that you will continue to follow all regulations. 

[stubby68]

Assume nothing

[Matthewsshooter]

That's why I love the internet, read pages people posting stats, everyon e questions the accuracy, because poachers, non reports,etc...   hunters like you give that all validation, least you own it

[Death From Above]

48 minutes ago, ManicOutdoorsman92 said:

Why thankyou! I take real pride in my in how I present myself.

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Pride, huh?  Well, I guess there will always be people who have lower standards than others. 

You calling a hunter a scumbag for going out of state to hunt a buck he doesn’t absolutely need for meat is equivalent to the opinion of a PETA member or anti-hunter IMO.  It goes totally against the freedom that we have to pursue wildlife as hunters and gatherers.  Didn’t say hunters and keepers.  To gather doesn’t mean I have to keep, because I can decide to gather and provide for others if I choose to. 

States use bag limits as a means to control populations.  In most states, out of state hunters are part of that equation.  When I apply for an out of state tag they don’t ask me for my welfare card or food stamps to make sure I have a reason to shoot a buck there.  They provide me the opportunity to help them control their population, and I get the chance to hunt in some places much different than NY.

Some states require a hunter to pay a processing fee (to pay for butchering) in order to drop off a deer to donate for shelters, or a family in need.  They are providing a service whether you like it or not.  If you want to pull that meat off their table because of the means or generosity it took to get there, then I’d suggest that you might be the scumbag in that scenario.

Hunters shoot and trappers trap predators for population control as well, but I don’t eat the coyotes I shoot.  Maybe you do.  If you don’t eat them I hope you don’t shoot them.  And if you dare sell the pelts for profit you’d better call yourself something worse than a scumbag.  After all, I am just using your rationale.

Are there scumbag hunters among our ranks?  I say yes.  I see them when I find deer shot from the road and the heads cut off or the back straps cut out.  I see them firsthand when I walk up on my neighbor who just shot two bucks with his rifle and puts tags on them that aren’t his.   I note them when I see bait piles in this state near stands.  Personally, I do not like the idea of baiting for deer and I have to admit that I am not in favor of fenced in hunts either. BUT, if it is legal where they are doing it, then they are within the law and I won’t judge them and call them scumbags.  They are just hunters, but maybe they do it a bit different than I would choose to.  Kinda like you shooting button bucks.  Did you need to shoot that particular deer for meat?  I don’t personally like harvesting BBs, and I will do whatever I can to keep from doing it.  But if you choose to I won’t call you a scumbag.   You’d be a hunter.

[stubby68]

There is no accuracy to question. Like I said even if all tags were reported and not one I'll able deer was killed the would be no way to know age stats unless every deer was aged with jawbone.  Number of points tells them nothing about how old the buck was. Even when they do checks at butchers they age by points and size. Or take a quick look at teeth which can be clos we but still not good enough to be accurate in there guess of how many 1 1/2 year old bucks are killed.

         What I own are the tags I purchase I will kill enough deer to fill the tags I have and no more. I will however fill them with an animal that makes me happy. Not one that makes the Dec or anyone else happy. I hunt for my enjoyment and mine alone.

[ManicOutdoorsman92]

 

Pride, huh?  Well, I guess there will always be people who have lower standards than others. 

You calling a hunter a scumbag for going out of state to hunt a buck he doesn’t absolutely need for meat is equivalent to the opinion of a PETA member or anti-hunter IMO.  It goes totally against the freedom that we have to pursue wildlife as hunters and gatherers.  Didn’t say hunters and keepers.  To gather doesn’t mean I have to keep, because I can decide to gather and provide for others if I choose to. 

States use bag limits as a means to control populations.  In most states, out of state hunters are part of that equation.  When I apply for an out of state tag they don’t ask me for my welfare card or food stamps to make sure I have a reason to shoot a buck there.  They provide me the opportunity to help them control their population, and I get the chance to hunt in some places much different than NY.

Some states require a hunter to pay a processing fee (to pay for butchering) in order to drop off a deer to donate for shelters, or a family in need.  They are providing a service whether you like it or not.  If you want to pull that meat off their table because of the means or generosity it took to get there, then I’d suggest that you might be the scumbag in that scenario.

Hunters shoot and trappers trap predators for population control as well, but I don’t eat the coyotes I shoot.  Maybe you do.  If you don’t eat them I hope you don’t shoot them.  And if you dare sell the pelts for profit you’d better call yourself something worse than a scumbag.  After all, I am just using your rationale.

Are there scumbag hunters among our ranks?  I say yes.  I see them when I find deer shot from the road and the heads cut off or the back straps cut out.  I see them firsthand when I walk up on my neighbor who just shot two bucks with his rifle and puts tags on them that aren’t his.   I note them when I see bait piles in this state near stands.  Personally, I do not like the idea of baiting for deer and I have to admit that I am not in favor of fenced in hunts either. BUT, if it is legal where they are doing it, then they are within the law and I won’t judge them and call them scumbags.  They are just hunters, but maybe they do it a bit different than I would choose to.  Kinda like you shooting button bucks.  Did you need to shoot that particular deer for meat?  I don’t personally like harvesting BBs, and I will do whatever I can to keep from doing it.  But if you choose to I won’t call you a scumbag.   You’d be a hunter.

Hmmm when did I say i shoot button bucks, i pass all fawns, and will pass a 1 1/2 until within the last week of any season bow or gun

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[growalot]

Stubby I have no opinion on your stance one way or the other...Why? Because it is expected, but you have the guts to say it out loud...No different than what I said would happen years ago with cross bows,and then the guys started reporting seeing them being carried during the beginning of bow season. For every one seen we all know the probability of high numbers not seen. Like I said many pages ago..watch the increased sale of small sheds and truck bed covers. I expect that the harvest report will take a hit as well..time will tell.

Edited March 26, 2017 by growalot

[ManicOutdoorsman92]

Thats right you got the freedom to kill food you don't need, and I got the freedom to express my opinions about you on that. 'MERICA HELL YEA!

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[chrisw]

Stubby I have no opinion on your stance one way or the other...Why? Because it is expected, but you have the guts to say it out loud...No different than what I said would happen years ago with cross bows,and then started the guys reporting seeing them being carried during the beginning of bow season. For everyone one seen we all know the probability of high numbers not seen. Like I said many pages ago..watch the increased sale of small sheds and truck bed covers. I expect that the harvest report will take a hit as well..time will tell.

For the record, I did not "like" your post. I accidentally hit it while scrolling. Just wanted to clear that up.

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[Death From Above]

34 minutes ago, ManicOutdoorsman92 said:

Thats right you got the freedom to kill food you don't need, and I got the freedom to express my opinions about you on that. 'MERICA HELL YEA!

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Sure you do, that is correct.

But I look up at the top of my browser and see huntingny.com.

Funny that you choose to type anti-hunting propaganda here.

Might I suggest some groups for you to consider supporting who share your opinions, such as The Defenders of Wildlife, or maybe Int. Fund for Animal Welfare, how about the stand by PETA, or you could google The American Society for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, and probably the most notable Humane Society of the United States.

Check those out, you will find lots of like-minded people there for sure.

[growalot]

Oh here we go ..Lol Chrisw...at the risk of sounding condescending....you had,still have time to push that little button on purpose, to unlike the post....though that wouldn't have made you feel as satisfied as making the above post I'm sure

[Four Season Whitetail's]

2 hours ago, stubby68 said:

Assume nothing

This speaks Volume.... You can still hide all those lil ones.........

[ManicOutdoorsman92]

 

Sure you do, that is correct.

But I look up at the top of my browser and see huntingny.com.

Funny that you choose to type anti-hunting propaganda here.

Might I suggest some groups for you to consider supporting who share your opinions, such as The Defenders of Wildlife, or maybe Int. Fund for Animal Welfare, how about the stand by PETA, or you could google The American Society for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, and probably the most notable Humane Society of the United States.

Check those out, you will find lots of like-minded people there for sure.

Ha thats funny! Where'd i come across as anti hunting, just dont care for big buck trophy hunters, and their ideology. Because I don't agree with your mindset that makes me anti-hunting?

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[stubby68]

45 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

This speaks Volume.... You can still hide all those lil ones.........

When have I ever hidden the fact that I do not shoot decorations and will pass them and take a young tender tasty one? I have said a good many times I shoot young bucks . Can't ( still hide) something I never hid in the first place. I hide nothing. Never have never will. But you can still kill those trophies you like  to brag about yet never prove you have gotten. Like I said I hunt for my own reasons and to make myself happy. Unlike you who seems to do it to please others and to make sure you have something to brag about.  You worry about you and I will worry about me.

[Death From Above]

28 minutes ago, ManicOutdoorsman92 said:

Ha thats funny! Where'd i come across as anti hunting, just dont care for big buck trophy hunters, and their ideology. Because I don't agree with your mindset that makes me anti-hunting?

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Who else calls hunters...hunting legally...scumbags??????  Anti-hunters do, that's who. 

Either one of the two of the actions you described of these LEGAL hunters deserves the scumbag term in your opinion.  Was it their desire to hunt deer in other states?  Or was it the willingness to give the deer away because they didn’t absolutely need it themselves?  Both are legal, and far from controversial, unless you are an anti-hunter.

I can’t hunt free range elk or moose here in NY, and I’d love to do so, but I don’t need all the meat.  You define me as a scumbag because of those details.  If not, and you say hunting another species is OK out of state, then there is no reason I can’t go hunt whitetails somewhere else.  Just cause we have whitetails in this state doesn’t mean I am a scumbag for wanting to hunt them elsewhere.  What if I simply enjoy taking a trip to the Midwest to hunt with friends?  It can be a lot of fun!  I have good friends that I go with, they aren't scumbags.

I was really hoping that you might just be passionate about how important the meat is to the hunt, and you just didn’t choose the right words to show a different opinion on the matter from some of your fellow sportsmen.  I had hoped that was the case, until you continued to stand by those words after being asked why you would call a legal hunter a scumbag.

Again, who else calls legal hunters scumbags?  No one, just anti-hunters.  What other conclusion would you like me to arrive at?

[Four Season Whitetail's]

11 minutes ago, stubby68 said:

When have I ever hidden the fact that I do not shoot decorations and will pass them and take a young tender tasty one? I have said a good many times I shoot young bucks . Can't ( still hide) something I never hid in the first place. I hide nothing. Never have never will. But you can still kill those trophies you like  to brag about yet never prove you have gotten. Like I said I hunt for my own reasons and to make myself happy. Unlike you who seems to do it to please others and to make sure you have something to brag about.  You worry about you and I will worry about me.

Problem is now you wont be able to kill all those baby spike and crotch horn bucks you seem to enjoy killing. Now you will either learn to find a little more mature one or hope one happens your way.  So you will in fact buy a buck tag and may not be able to fill it and you can break the law and continue to kill those baby bucks. A lot of baby fawns and yearling does left out there for ya!

[stubby68]

20 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

Problem is now you wont be able to kill all those baby spike and crotch horn bucks you seem to enjoy killing. Now you will either learn to find a little more mature one or hope one happens your way.  So you will in fact buy a buck tag and may not be able to fill it and you can break the law and continue to kill those baby bucks. A lot of baby fawns and yearling does left out there for ya!

First I already stated I will not change how or what I hunt. So no I will not buy a tag and not use it. Second who are you to lecture someone about doing what they see fit on there own property?