The perfect whitetail round

[eagle rider]

Moosemike, I'm sorry, it was India for Tiger, read the attached,.... about 1/2 way down.

http://35whelen.blogspot.com/

[Pygmy]

Actually, I don't think old Jack was recoil shy. I remember him using the .375 H&H quite a bit in Africa and Asia, and I believe he used heavier ( over .40 ) rifles for really heavy stuff, like elephant and cape buffalo.

It's just that he believed that the AVERAGE shooter was much better served by a lesser caliber ( 7x57, .270 and 30-06 were his favorites) because most people can shoot those calibers better than they can one of the big belted magnums, which kick a lot more.

He put a premium on shot placement, rather than trying to make up for poor shooting with more powerful cartridges.

[eagle rider]

absolutely,.... still won't go after the North American Food Chain King of the Artic with a 222.  On a Weatherby blog (I'm a big Mk V and Vanguard fan) the question went around the site a few weeks back that if a 300 Win or Weatherby Mag can anchor a Kodiak Bear, and they aren't super punishing on the shoulder for the work they are capable of (ditto for the 35 Whelen here as well, gotta through a plug in for he 30-06's big cousin).  So if one can put a 1,000 + brownie into a taxidermy shop with that round, a 500 pound lion should be short work at best........  The bottom line is they all agreed, including those on that blog who hunt and guide on the Dark Contient. Still the sense is using a 375 H&H is the addded margin of absolute certianty that the job will get done even if the shot placement is little off perfect.  I met this guy at the range who hunts all over the world, he has photos of real legit trophies, no BS.  In fact in 2008 he took the record Costal Brown in Alaska. He's a 416 Rigby and 404 Jeffrey shooter, he told me the 416 dropped his moster bear no problem.  His guide was carrying a 340 Wby Mag.  The irony of the cleint out gunning the guide I thought was interesting, but in most cases the cleint will have a 300 Mag (WSM, Win or Wby, maybe even a Remmy' Ultra).  So in the majority of cases the guide can put a followup shot on the bear of much greater stopping power with a bullet that is probably 250 grains or better.  I don't know if you ever shot a 340 Wby Mag,  it is among one of the most unpleaseant experiences one can have on a shooting bench.  Its cousin the 338 Win Mag is only slightly better, but still a wrecking ball on the shooter.

Not sure how we got here from singing the parises of the 30-06,.... but it is fun.   

[moosemike]

Moosemike, I'm sorry, it was India for Tiger, read the attached,.... about 1/2 way down.

http://35whelen.blogspot.com/

Very interesting read.

[eagle rider]

I thought it was, its kind of an interesting cartridge, its the hunters brush gun in a way. 

[Pygmy]

hehehehe..Here is the ultimate story of backing up a hunter for dangerous game with a lesser rifle.

This was told to me by a friend of mine, who had an aquaintance who went polar bear hunting..

The guy shot his bear with a .375 H&H...There was second bear hanging around that would not leave the carcass of the dead bear.  The guy's Inuit guide radioed the authorities to get permission to shoot the second bear. The guide shot the second bear, killing it instantly. The hunter thought the rpeort of the guide's rifle sounded awful LIGHT.

It turned out that the guide was "backing up" his hunter with a 22-250.

Once again, my story is for conversation only. I am NOT endorsing the 22-250 as an adequate polar bear rifle. However, natives kill polar bears, grizzlies, walrus, muskox, moose and all kinds of big critters on a daily basis with .22Hornets, .222s, .223s, and 22-250s.  I remember a quote from one Inuit regarding polar bears...He said they required a BIG rifle...So he used his .243.

[eagle rider]

Pygmy, that is outstanding!!!  If I was ever fortunate enough to hunt North American Dangerous Game and my guide showed up with anything smaller then my rife to back me up,..... I'd give him my spare rifle to use.  Here's a question to ponder, if you were hunting costal brown's what would be your primary and back rifles?

[Lawdwaz]

I'm not Pygmy, I'm more like Fatty Arbuckle But MY choice for primary would be my 375 HNH and for back up, I'd take the 300WSM.

I did go on a Brownie hunt, I was was along on my friends hunt as a paying guest that could hunt black bears.  It was in '97 and took place in Yakutat, AK (did I spell it right?)

I did take a 375 and so did my buddy.  I had a LH and he had a RH, both Sako deluxe rifles.  No primers were popped at game.  11 days of rain and sleeping in a 4 man tent.  Notable events of the trip were 2 nights in Seattle on our way out and my LL Bean Primaloft sleeping bag that was warm even when wet in the leaking tent!  Oh yea, and we saw a pile of bald eagles and mtn. goats.

We only saw one sow with cubs and two black bears to far to get on in the fadding light.  Twas a long and somewhat miserable hunt that I don't regret a bit!!!!

[eagle rider]

I think I go for costal brownies, I'd invest in a new Model 700 XCR II in 300 Win Mag.  I'd work up a loading with a Nosler Partition 220 gr, and top it with a 4-12x40 Nikon Monarch UCC with a BDC.  I'd use a 1 piece Leupold base and rings.  My back up would be my Weatherby Mk V Deluxe Outfitter.  Same glass and hardware is already on that one. 

[Pygmy]

If I were hunting coastal brownies I would take my CZ-550 in 9.3 x 62 with handloaded 286 grain Nosler Partitions. The scope is an M8 Leupold fixed 4x.

I don't have a suitable backup for  big bears and have never had the need for one on any of my wilderness hunts, but if I could afford a brown bear hunt ( which I can't) it would make sense to take one in the same chambering, probably in a CZ-550 synthetic compact, with the same glass. Nothing ever goes wrong with fixed power Leupolds .

As an aside, the reason that I own a 9.3 x 62 is because of the existence of brown/grizzly bears.  After seeing my first few grizzlies in the flesh , suddenly my .280 seemed rather puny, so I bought a .338 Win mag to use as my rifle anywhere where the hairy volkswagons were a factor.

After getting pummled by the .338 for a few years I decided to get something that would suffice at grizzly protection, but did not beat me up so bad on the bench...Hence the 9.3 x 62.  It kicks similar to a 30-06 with heavy bullets, shoots as flat enough for the odd 300 yard shot, and handles heavy enough bullets to stop large, dangerous game.

Most brown bear guides recommend a .300 Mag as a MINIMUM, although some list a 30-06 with heavy bullets as minimum.  The ones who know thier salt would rather see a hunter show up with a 30-06 that he can shoot well than a  .378 Weatherby or .416 that he's afraid of.

[eagle rider]

Yeah, I agree.  A couple of years ago a boss from my job decided he was gonna work on his bucket list and saved his OT for a year.  He went to Alaska.  His choice was a 300 Wby Mag in an Ultra Lightweight Mk V.  He's only about 160 soaking wet and 6'2"  So you can imagine the A$$ Whipping this gave him.  His back was an old Ruger 77 30-06.  After watching him try to zero at 200 yards (the distance the guide liked to set clients up on brownies) and realized he was too squeamish about the recoil, the moved to Plan B and used the 77.  The guide broke out a box of 220 gr A-Frames for him to zero and hunt with and that is what he took his bear with.  Bottom line, gotta to disconnect the pump station quickly on something that when pissed at you will be looking to tear you apart.  Shot placement is the key.  I do think in part that is way 30-06 has been a success, most people can handle the recoil.  Plus the newer rifles have really nice pads right out of the box.  I can tell you on my XCR, which is really light, I feel about as much recoil as I do on a 30/30 lever gun with no pad.  There is just o need to punish yourself. 

[moosemike]

I wouldn't like to trust a .300 mag on a Brownie hunt. I know it would work but it's my life and I only have one so a .338 Win. Mag witha heavy Partition would be my choice. Backup rifle would be a .300 Weatherby though.

[steve863]

I think if one goes into the Alaskan bush after brown bear, he must decide on ONE rifle and forget about a backup.  There is enough stuff to lug along and put into a small plane without an extra gun.  An extra rifle will be more trouble than it's worth.  Typically the guides don't care to admire the hunters battery of guns, all they care about is that you know how to shoot ONE well when the animal shows itself.  Also if the hunter brings along more than one gun and then ends up screwing up a shot, it will make him look even worse in the guides eyes.  The hunter will look like a total idiot.  Hey look he's got a bunch of neat guns yet can't shoot any of them worth a darn is what the guide will be thinking.

[bubba]

the main reason for a back up is in case of malfunction with the first, so you dont end up in a pile of steaming bear crap.  Most outfitterd require a back up firearm for that reason, and most carry one. 

[steve863]

The ONLY backup gun that will help save your hide is the guides gun, and surely not the extra one you brought along that will probably be sitting in the tent miles away from the action.

[bubba]

I knew you woud know better.  call some guides and see whay they say.  But since this was a perfect whitetail round threah I will stop discussing bear hunts in Alaska.

[steve863]

No, I don't know better, but I just can't see how that extra rifle you brought along will help you in the heat of the moment if you discover the rifle you did carry into the field is malfunctioning.  The ONLY rifle that will help you is the guides.  Not like you will be able to tell the bear, "Looky here, Mr. Bear, can I go back and get my working rifle so I can shoot you before you decide to eat me".  I've hunted with outfitters and I haven't heard any recommending everyone to bring an extra rifle.  Usually they will find you one to use, if it turns out that yours isn't working right.

[Lawdwaz]

No, I don't know better, but I just can't see how that extra rifle you brought along will help you in the heat of the moment if you discover the rifle you did carry into the field is malfunctioning.  The ONLY rifle that will help you is the guides.  Not like you will be able to tell the bear, "Looky here, Mr. Bear, can I go back and get my working rifle so I can shoot you before you decide to eat me".  I've hunted with outfitters and I haven't heard any recommending everyone to bring an extra rifle.  Usually they will find you one to use, if it turns out that yours isn't working right.

The way I'm getting it, the "back up rifle" is the one that the paying hunter is bringing as a 2nd gun for his own use, NOT for the hunter to carry two guns.  I'm pretty sure you would have figured that out in advance??

The guide would most certainly carry his own gun as a "back up".

I've never had a gun fail in the field while out of state but you never know, hence the reason for bringing a second gun if possible and practical.

[steve863]

The way I'm getting it, the "back up rifle" is the one that the paying hunter is bringing as a 2nd gun for his own use, NOT for the hunter to carry two guns.  I'm pretty sure you would have figured that out in advance??

Of course he won't be carrying the second gun with him.  But like I said, what good will that second gun do him if he discovers the first one isn't functioning when face to face with the bear?  That is why I say the guides gun is the ONLY backup gun that will count in such a scenario.

[Lawdwaz]

The way I'm getting it, the "back up rifle" is the one that the paying hunter is bringing as a 2nd gun for his own use, NOT for the hunter to carry two guns.  I'm pretty sure you would have figured that out in advance??

Of course he won't be carrying the second gun with him.  But like I said, what good will that second gun do him if he discovers the first one isn't functioning when face to face with the bear?  That is why I say the guides gun is the ONLY backup gun that will count in such a scenario.

Should you have an accidental fall and bust your stock or scope, ATV/boat/horse accident, theft due to scumbag lurking????  I guess that's when I'd want a back up gun in camp ready to go.  Nobody really said when this back up was going to be put to use and it was just assumed that it would be in the event of a circumstance like I mentioned above??  YMMV.

[eagle rider]

Let me give you an example why a backup is needed from Virginia LAST season.  Nothing dangerous, just deer and coyotes,......  Getting to a box blind on a tower, the guide climbs the ladder behind me to hand me up my rifle, as the door to the blind began to swing shut in the wind, the scope caps were off and the objective lens went into the corner of the door.  The metal rain edge on the underside of the door scratched the crap out of the lens and made the scope unusable (actually heard the scretching sound).  For the rest of the hunt, 2.5 more days, I used my backup rifle and was fine.  If I didn't have a backup rifle, my hunt would have ended right there.  Incidentally, the guide covered the cost of the scope and threw me an extra $20 for ammo to re-zero the rifle. 

[steve863]

The way I'm getting it, the "back up rifle" is the one that the paying hunter is bringing as a 2nd gun for his own use, NOT for the hunter to carry two guns.  I'm pretty sure you would have figured that out in advance??

Of course he won't be carrying the second gun with him.  But like I said, what good will that second gun do him if he discovers the first one isn't functioning when face to face with the bear?  That is why I say the guides gun is the ONLY backup gun that will count in such a scenario.

Should you have an accidental fall and bust your stock or scope, ATV/boat/horse accident, theft due to scumbag lurking? ???  I guess that's when I'd want a back up gun in camp ready to go.  Nobody really said when this back up was going to be put to use and it was just assumed that it would be in the event of a circumstance like I mentioned above??  YMMV.

What is even more likely to happen is that one of the baggage handling apes on the airline you flew to your hunting destination either abuses your gun case or maybe misplaces it completely.  In this situation you might have two damaged or lost rifles if you had them both in one case which is probably what most hunters do since you are charged for every bag of luggage these days.  I think these days I would prefer to take my chances with one gun, especially if flying.  If it don't make it to my destination, I am sure the outfitter will have no problem getting you one to borrow.  It's not like he expects you to pay $10-15K for a bear hunt and then will leave you without a gun if it happens to get lost or damaged.  My .02 cents on this subject, anyway.

[Lawdwaz]

The way I'm getting it, the "back up rifle" is the one that the paying hunter is bringing as a 2nd gun for his own use, NOT for the hunter to carry two guns.  I'm pretty sure you would have figured that out in advance??

Of course he won't be carrying the second gun with him.  But like I said, what good will that second gun do him if he discovers the first one isn't functioning when face to face with the bear?  That is why I say the guides gun is the ONLY backup gun that will count in such a scenario.

Should you have an accidental fall and bust your stock or scope, ATV/boat/horse accident, theft due to scumbag lurking? ???  I guess that's when I'd want a back up gun in camp ready to go.  Nobody really said when this back up was going to be put to use and it was just assumed that it would be in the event of a circumstance like I mentioned above??  YMMV.

What is even more likely to happen is that one of the baggage handling apes on the airline you flew to your hunting destination either abuses your gun case or maybe misplaces it completely.  In this situation you might have two damaged or lost rifles if you had them both in one case which is probably what most hunters do since you are charged for every bag of luggage these days.  I think these days I would prefer to take my chances with one gun, especially if flying.  If it don't make it to my destination, I am sure the outfitter will have no problem getting you one to borrow.  It's not like he expects you to pay $10-15K for a bear hunt and then will leave you without a gun if it happens to get lost or damaged.  My .02 cents on this subject, anyway.

I give up, you win.

[steve863]

Let me give you an example why a backup is needed from Virginia LAST season.  Nothing dangerous, just deer and coyotes,......  Getting to a box blind on a tower, the guide climbs the ladder behind me to hand me up my rifle, as the door to the blind began to swing shut in the wind, the scope caps were off and the objective lens went into the corner of the door.  The metal rain edge on the underside of the door scratched the crap out of the lens and made the scope unusable (actually heard the scretching sound).  For the rest of the hunt, 2.5 more days, I used my backup rifle and was fine.  If I didn't have a backup rifle, my hunt would have ended right there.  Incidentally, the guide covered the cost of the scope and threw me an extra $20 for ammo to re-zero the rifle.

Seriously, I do not wish to get into an argument, but you mean the guide would not have been able to come up with a spare gun for you if you had brought only one with you??  I think most guides knowing that they are getting paid by you would have given you their very own gun to use.  At least that has been my experience with outfitted hunts.  Your guide was obviously a very generous guy to begin with since he bought you a new scope to replace the damaged one.  I can tell you that not very many would have done that.  It really doesn't sound like it was his fault that the scope accidently got damaged.

[Pygmy]

On most of my hunts, I was limited for weight, so taking a spare rifle was counterproductive.

Also, all of my wilderness hunts have been with at least one partner, so if necessary, two hunters could share one rifle. Typically, we had about 4 hunters in camp . We would take a shotgun for a small game/tent gun/ bear protection gun, so if someone's rifle or scope malfunctioned,there would still be a spare firearm for someone to carry for bear protection. Never had a scope/rifle breakdown, although I know it could happen.

On a 1x1 hunt with a guide, if your rifle screwed up, you could use the guide's rifle. In my experience, it would probably be a 30-06 with open sights that looked like it had been dragged behind a pickup for about 100 miles.

On most of the hunts I have been on ( fly in DIY hunts) a backup rifle was a luxury I was not willing to afford.. The extra weight was better spent on some other luxury, like a few cans of spam, a couple sixpacks of beer or maybe a 2L jug of Black Velvet.. ...