Wow....NYOut door news came today

[Doc]

WNYBuckhunter-

I keep looking at that deer in your avitar. What in the heck is that sticking out of it's mouth? Is that a tongue, carrot, cigar or what? It's too small, I can't quite make it out.

Doc

[WNYBuckHunter]

LOL, its her tounge. I cropped it out of one of my trailcam pics I got so far this year. I wish it was color.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Let me give you my opinion. How can you....bubba...lump diabetics in with the mentally ill? Where is that classified as such?

As for folks with seizures I have no problem with them being restricted in the carry of a firearm just as the law requires them to be free of seizures for 6 months or they can't drive. Prove you are better and have it controlled...fine....relapse...they go.

I also have to back WNY on his point...big difference between possession of a shotgun and an easily concealable pistol.

[bubba]

culver creek, I didnt. I simply asked the man who said they should not have a carry permit to clarify. He said that all people who have to take a med which alters the mind should not have a permit. So, I asked if a diabetic goes low they can become combative which alters their state of mind.  I also asked  if a person with seizures is on meds should they have a permit. WNYBuckhunter is the one who said no not me. Read clioser, I am the one defending the guy with the mental illness and others.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

3 members of my family are diabetic. I haven't seen that behavior you describe. I do have a friend that is also and he drinks to excess and plays the insulin game to kepp him straight...sometimes he misses and does get like that. That said there is still a big difference in Psychiatric medications and those for physical conditions. You are in the field and you know this. They are alos much more difficult to regulate. Physical changes in the persons body, even something as simple as a cold can affect the specific reation of their meds. That being said they are too high risk for my taste. And you did hit the amin point. Alot of the serious case have received some hospitalization and that disqualifies them anyway. 

Late's all be honest here. We all know someone that we wouldn't feel comfortable having a concealed weapon. I do. There are also people I must associate with that I wouldn't want watching my kids too.

[Doc]

I also have to back WNY on his point...big difference between possession of a shotgun and an easily concealable pistol.

I certainly hope their is a big enough difference because otherwise it wouldn't take an anti-gun group and their legislative partners very long to offer up a convincing argument for registering all guns (muzzleloaders included) using exactly the same mental deficiency arguments. I mean we can debate the effectiveness of a concealed pistol vs a long gun if it makes us feel better, but once you start accepting the premise of gun registration and government controlled permitting, then you had better be ready to start forking over the bucks for registering the rest of your firearms because the argument works very well for long-guns too and the puny arguments concerning concealability aren't going to be all that useful. The only thing that has held back registration of long-guns is the absolute stubborn refusal of the NRA to accept the premise of registration of any weapons. This is something that the NRA often gets criticized for and often gets the label of extremists hung on them, but the plain facts are that when you give an inch (or even concede the concept of registration) the gun control lobby and their merry band of sympathetic lawmakers happily will take the proverbial mile. The NRA learned that a long time ago, and some of the rest of us had better get on board with that same philosophy.

Another thing to bear in mind is the fact that registration and confiscation go hand in hand. Those arguments that work for permitting systems are the same arguments that are so effective in outlawing or severely modifying the legality of those same guns. The anti-gun people will make themselves very happy by super-regulating your guns, or you, or both. Every concession that we make aids them in all of their goals.

Doc

[Culvercreek hunt club]

DOC...I am not for permitting in anyway. Restrictions on those not fit are tough to define so they are not abused by the powers to be. How do we draw that line and protect out rights? ...tough question but I surely don't believe that EVERYONE shoudl be allowed to have a gun...how about convicts. It is so tough to draw a line that takes care of every situation.

FYI I am a lifetime NRA member and proud to be.

[bubba]

Culver creek, I am a psych nurse, so believe me I know the difference.  I am also an EMT-P.  I have responded to several calls where i needed law enforcement to subdue a very combative diabetic who had a low blood sugar. I used this as an example to say where is the line drawn. If we can say a person with mental illness cant have a permit according to the person I was arguing with, anyone who takes a med that alters their mental status should be disqualified.  Well diabetes itself alters mental status as well as meds for epilepsy do.  Im fact most meds for epilepsy are used for mental illness.  I personally am against the govt deciding who can exercise their guaranteed rights and who cant. It is one step toward having all guns registered and eventually taken away. When I mentioned this before to the persom I was arguing with, I was told I was foolish and it will never happen.  All we need is one more lib on the court, and they are gone trust me. They libs on the court voted for the chicago ban. One mor eit would have been declared constitutional. As my signature says, guns only have two enemies rust and liberal politicians.  I fear the people who think that gun control will never happen, as they will be the ones who stand by and say hmm how did that happen when it does happen. 

[bubba]

I would dare say that maybe 2 percent of crimes are committed with a legal gun.  And statistics show that people carrying who are not properly trained, have their own guns used againt them about 60 percent of the time.  If I were so irrational I intended to commit a crime, I would steal a gun. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

Ive been saying theres a big difference all along Doc. I am in no way for permitting of longguns, Muzzleloaders or shotguns. Pistols, however, I do agree with permits for them. I also think that the current system of permitting is fine and should not be changed other than the permits should be nationally recognized and you should be allowed to carry over state lines as long as you have a concealed carry permit.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Bubba, theres a big difference between a guy that has low insulin and wont allow you to put him on a backboard, and some guy that looses his mind because he didnt take his meds, grabs his gun and opens fire.

[bubba]

but the permit system is state based how do you make it federal without giving more power to the govt to control them?

[WNYBuckHunter]

I would dare say that maybe 2 percent of crimes are committed with a legal gun.  And statistics show that people carrying who are not properly trained, have their own guns used againt them about 60 percent of the time.  If I were so irrational I intended to commit a crime, I would steal a gun.

Ok, so why would you want that irrational individual that would go steal a gun, to be able to legally buy one?

[WNYBuckHunter]

but the permit system is state based how do you make it federal without giving more power to the govt to control them?

Thats not necessarily true, there are many states that recognize each other's permits. Look, you already go through an FBI your NYS pistol permit, meaning your record has been checked nationally, not just statewide. Why shouldnt you be able to carry anywhere if you passed that kind of scrutiny?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I am not for the permitting process as it stands. In no way should it take 9 months to a year to get one. and a freaking 192 bucks to boot.

But bubba see my post just b4 yours....can we have a line?...should there be one?...we can't have criminals obtaining if they choose..legally anyway....50 buck on any corner in Riochester will get them one but i think you see my point. It CAN"T be nothing and shouldn't be all so where do we go?

[bubba]

wny th eguy with the low blood sugar can shoot you while in an altered state of mental being.  You sai dearlier that all people who take drugs that alter the mind should not have a permit. Are you backpeddling on that now too. Tell that story to the guy in alex bay Mark Davis a volunteer emt who was responding to a call and got shot with a long gun and died. yes he was an emt and the guy was diabetic in a low bs. So where is the difference?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

We need to vote out these Liberals in NY and get reciprocity with other states...pardon my spelling. I amgonna take my course and get the Utah permit too...cover like 20 some states I think

[WNYBuckHunter]

Well then, if youve had a history of things like that happening (getting out of control due to low blood sugar), you shouldnt get one. Im not back peddling at all.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Yep, the Utah permit is on my list of things to do in the next year.

[bubba]

that is exactly my question where is it drawn? I think we crossed the line of guarntee a long time ago. If you want to do i tright, make it so a person with a mental illness they have had to be hospitalized for part of the nics it is supposed to be.  If they pass a nics they get a gun simple as that longgun or handgun. We are slowly giving up our rights under the giuse of protecting outselves.  But what are we protecting outselves from? the crazy guy next door, or the govt who is slowly takin gover and will have all guns soon?  It is all about govt control.  And yes wny it is about fed control.  Some states do not require a permit at all.  Some states do recgnize other states permits. However to make it across the board, it would become a federally controlled permit. Any state can say no we do not plan to recognize this state or that state until it is a federal law.  Then the feds control it.  When I was in AZ all I needed to do was walk into kmart show my az drivers license and leave with a handgun

[bubba]

ok so diabetes and epilepsy should disqualify a person from carrying?  what next cancer. Hey they are going to die, they may decide to take a bunch with them.  Sounds dramatic, but it is my point where do we stop.  I know where when no one has guns. culvercreek it isnt just ny that needs to get rid of the libs, it is the whole country. I mean think about it we were one vote on the supreme court from them saying owning a handgun in chicago was  not against our conststutional rights.  If it went through you dont think liberal NY state would not use that as a a precedent to take all handguns? next would be registering long guns and you go sign it out when yo uwant to use it fo rthe purposes they decide are ok. One liberal away from that right now. How much closer does it have to get?  We do not need the govt to protect us from ourselves.  what abut a person who drinks or uses drugs? Both alter ones state of mind.  We do not want them to have a permit, but they can drive a car and kill families in that.

[Doc]

DOC...I am not for permitting in anyway. Restrictions on those not fit are tough to define so they are not abused by the powers to be. How do we draw that line and protect out rights? ...tough question but I surely don't believe that EVERYONE shoudl be allowed to have a gun...how about convicts. It is so tough to draw a line that takes care of every situation.

FYI I am a lifetime NRA member and proud to be.

Convicts are easy. Their actions have deprived themselves of some civil liberties and rights. Gun ownership is one of those rights that they have lost. Convicted felons are barred from gun ownership.

I don't think there are too many people that don't believe that those who have risky conditions or have in some way displayed that they are at risk of misusing a firearm should be denied the use of a firearm. That sort of thing actually involves point of sale background checking rather than registration and permitting systems.

But my point is that we have to be careful about what doors we open up when it comes to gun control concessions. Some of those doors let in some real nasty little gremlins that have little to do with the reasons we opened the door in the first place.

Doc

[bubba]

amen doc you mirrrored my previous post

[WNYBuckHunter]

See Bubba, where we differ is where the line needs to be drawn. You apparently agree that there needs to be a line, right?

As far as different states go with handgun permits, every state recognized each other's drivers licenses, why not handgun permits as well as long as that state has gone through the same level or better of a permitting process? Get the states on board with each other on background checks and all is well.

Doc, I am on board with what you said. My opinion on where the line is set is pretty obvious from what I have posted in this thread.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Oh and as far as NY setting the precedent with how the permitting  process should go, Im pretty much fine with that with a few tweaks, like  the policy in NYC, I dont agree with that at all. It will be gone  before long though.

Now you want to discuss other points on NY gun laws? Theres lots of things I do not agree with.  ;D