Would you pass on this one?

[sampotter]

Sam,

You can start a whole other thread on this subject. I can't believe how many stories I heard about using or claiming to use someone else's tag.

So many ways around the system, when people do that I call it killing not hunting.

Unfortunately there is only one way to stop it- and you may lose some friends in the process. One of the guys I work with shot a 3pt over the weekend. I said something about being tagged out until ML season- "My wife has a buck tag" Yes, she does and she's the only one that can use it. If you're not satisfied with your 3pt, then you shouldn't have shot it. Otherwise, you're done until ML. This was the third time in 2 days I witnessed people either doing this or discussing their intentions of doing it. I love when guys even post 2 different bucks on the internet. Morons. Have some restraint.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

And that is one of the reasons ny state will never amount to a hill of beans untill they put in full restricts on antler size,shorten the seasons and on and on!!! Sore subject with many and i am sure half of those that fight it are the same ones that shoot 2 and 3 yearlings every year.

[nyantler]

Um yea I can say that because that would be illegal, atleast you admit to breaking the law.

"You really cant do any better math than 50/50 if you shoot that baby today he is dead if you let him walk atleast he has half a chance to make it through the year"

So you want to stand by your statement that the surrvival rate of a 1.5yr old buck is 50%? You might want to check into that stat..lol Admitingly the chance for surrvival is 0 if one gets killed but, there are far more ways for a deer to get killed outside of hunting.

Here is a link to an interesting read, not based in NY but interesting none the less..

http://www.whitetail...e+Brush+Country

I don't believe it.. you really don't understand the term 50/50... I thought you were kidding. How about "Six of one, half a dozen of another"???

[nyantler]

So we kind of agree! haha

I have noticed that some guys monsters are another guys scrub, to put it simply ofcourse.

You know as different as you and I are we really share some of the same ideas concerning hunting, that scares me. lol

I really think we agree but not necessarily in the same way... I am for AR's but ok with guys taking what they want.. you don't like the AR part... I'm a meat hunter... but I don't use small bucks for meat.. you shoot anything for meat... I don't think all bucks are trophies.. I do think some small bucks can be trophies... etc... we are somewhat similar but definitely not the same... and I really think that there are lots of things all of us hunters have in common... if we all agreed on everything this wouldn't be much of a forum... it would be more of a circle jerk with everyone taking turns saying what all the others wanted to hear..

[Doewhacker]

I don't believe it.. you really don't understand the term 50/50... I thought you were kidding. How about "Six of one, half a dozen of another"???

Come on buddy, be nice! What is the survival rate for buck 1.5 years old? Is it greater than or less than 50/50?

Oh never mind you are just mad cause I beat you at your own game.

.. you shoot anything for meat... ..

And how would you know what I or my family shoots? lol Just because I don't care for AR's doesn't mean I shoot any little thing I see Joe. Once I found out you were a fellow still hunter I started cutting you some slack, don't make me regret that. haha

[nyantler]

Come on buddy, be nice! What is the survival rate for buck 1.5 years old? Is it greater than or less than 50/50?

Oh never mind you are just mad cause I beat you at your own game.

And how would you know what I or my family shoots? lol Just because I don't care for AR's doesn't mean I shoot any little thing I see Joe. Once I found out you were a fellow still hunter I started cutting you some slack, don't make me regret that. haha

ok let me explain the 50/50 thing to ya... if you kill any deer (not just 1.5 year old) that deer has 0% chance of getting any older.. if you don't kill the deer you have just raised its chances to half a chance that it survives until next year and half a chance he gets killed before next year... 50%=1/2 so you have immediatey increased his chance of survival by half.. 50/50.. meaning the next guy has two choices kill or pass... 2 choices, 1 decision ... giving the deer 1 in 2 chances of living or 50/50.. I hope that is much clearer... If not .. I give up and you're a hopeless case..lol

[Doewhacker]

Oh man you are to easy for me..lol I was screwing with you the whole time, of course I know the term 50/50 and what it means..haha

BUT I will say this, plenty of deer die of natural causes or car accidents with out the help of hunters and that was my point the whole time. Even if a deer survives a season there are NO gaurentees it will make it another year. Hence survival rates. I know two different topics but I am silly like that.

[nyantler]

Oh man you are to easy for me..lol I was screwing with you the whole time, of course I know the term 50/50 and what it means..haha

BUT I will say this, plenty of deer die of natural causes or car accidents with out the help of hunters and that was my point the whole time. Even if a deer survives a season there are NO gaurentees it will make it another year. Hence survival rates. I know two different topics but I am silly like that.

AHHA That is where you are not seeing the point.. we are not looking for gaurantees.. just better chances.! when you pass on a buck you have increased his chance of surviving.. simply by not killing him right then and there. and if all other hunters did the same he would have an even greater chance of getting older... in fact every time someone passes on him .. he actually gets a little older..

[arrow nocker]

funny how some people say if it was a spike i wouldn't shoot it but a 4 or 6 i would.then go and say that they are just meat hunters.The spike,4 and 6(most likely) are all 1.5 yr old deer.The spike was just late born.LOL.They all taste great.

If its is a 2.5 yr old 6 then its gonna be a big 6 or bad genitics.

[Doewhacker]

funny how some people say if it was a spike i wouldn't shoot it but a 4 or 6 i would.then go and say that they are just meat hunters.The spike,4 and 6(most likely) are all 1.5 yr old deer.The spike was just late born.LOL.They all taste great.

If its is a 2.5 yr old 6 then its gonna be a big 6 or bad genitics.

Well it depends on the area in my opinion. Our Leeds spot produces some real scrubs, average body sizes but scrubs compared to Western NY. And I am talking 2.5 and up. I think its more to do with the minerals in the soil and so on.

Ex. Spotted a 150-160 ish pound buck this year that had nice beams and back tines, but turned out to only be a 4 point. I really tried to grow more rack on him, not that it would have mattered he was far away anyway.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Doewhacker

[13BVET]

Antler size doesn't determine a deer's age-teeth do. Unless you can literally look into a deer's mouth before pulling the trigger, you're grasping at straws on age. I've seen spikes and does that were old. Food source is the primary factor for antler growth-NOT age. Unless, of course, all the experts are wrong too!

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Well i will tell you all the word i roll with...MATURE...If you let a whitetail buck MATURE you will have just shot one of the best bucks you will ever shoot. The points or inches and teeth wear and all else that has to do with a deer means nothing untill you let him MATURE and then the size and score and weight will all fall in place!!

[sampotter]

Antler size doesn't determine a deer's age-teeth do. Unless you can literally look into a deer's mouth before pulling the trigger, you're grasping at straws on age. I've seen spikes and does that were old. Food source is the primary factor for antler growth-NOT age. Unless, of course, all the experts are wrong too!

I have never seen an "old" spike. I've seen big bodied spikes, small antlered spikes, big antlered spikes, but never an old spike. I hunt a week per year in the middle of the ADKs with some of the poorest, most acidic soils in the whole state. Every spike I ever saw up there was a yearling.

[WNY Bowhunter]

Well i will tell you all the word i roll with...MATURE...If you let a whitetail buck MATURE you will have just shot one of the best bucks you will ever shoot. The points or inches and teeth wear and all else that has to do with a deer means nothing untill you let him MATURE and then the size and score and weight will all fall in place!!

Well said. That's the entire story in a nutshell. Period. They don't go from "buttons" to "booners" in one year's time. Even in Iowa!!!

[WNY Bowhunter]

Here are a few real world examples of antler growth over consecutive years on several bucks that I have history with. I consider them to be average deer for this area of WNY with average genetics and access to average agricultural crops (no soybeans within miles)...

Yearling to 2 year old growth (hopefully these two are still alive...they could be a couple of awesome looking bucks next year):

Jump from 2 to 3 (wish this guy would have made it for another year):

3

Jump from 3 to 4:

Sadly, some scumbag poached this guy @1:30 AM last November 2nd...

Edited December 1, 2011 by WNY Bowhunter

[sampotter]

How'd you end up with the rack?

Edited December 1, 2011 by sampotter

[KEVA]

bvet, you are right that food source is the primary factor. Yet by observing the deer in an area over the years, you can come to fairly accurate age estimates using the antlers. Deer in the same area are likely to have a similar diet and as such should grow antlers at the same approximate rate. Judging age by antler mass, length, and spread may not be entirely accurate, but it is very field applicable.

[SteveB]

6/8 pt that is a 1.5 is the same as a spike/fork that is 1.5. I don't understand the willingness to shoot a 1.5 6 to 8 pt but pass on a spike or fork? Personally hold for one I feel is 3.5 or older - number of points has nothing to do with my decision to shoot.

That said, shoot what ever you want that is legal.

[13BVET]

I've actually passed on young bucks quite a bit. Having said that, thanks to the damned developers down here, we've lost tons of hunting areas. It's not so cut and dry down here. We don't have a ton of state land to hunt, and hunting on what's left of private land, is tough to say the least. Most landowners (especially where I hunt), want the herd controlled. If you have the option of being particular, more power to you. I have no problem, or say, as I don't pay for your license. Same goes for me. When someone else pays for my license, then they can have their input. Simply put, I do as the landowner wants-it's his property-not mine. He tells me to harvest them, I harvest them, as long as it's within the law. I make no apologies for what I harvest, as it is legal-plain and simple.

[13BVET]

6/8 pt that is a 1.5 is the same as a spike/fork that is 1.5. I don't understand the willingness to shoot a 1.5 6 to 8 pt but pass on a spike or fork? Personally hold for one I feel is 3.5 or older - number of points has nothing to do with my decision to shoot.

That said, shoot what ever you want that is legal.

I agree 100% Steve.

[KEVA]

I agree, every hunter should shoot what he or she wants to shoot as long as it is within the law. Of course, hunting on a lease or some one else property may also affect what you may or may not shoot.

As some have mentioned filling other people's tags, STOP. Filling other hunters' tags is harmful to management and disrespectful to your fellow hunters.

[13BVET]

It's also interesting to note that we're shotgun only down here, as compared to the ADK's, which is rifle. Up to 300 yards, versus 100 yards? Huge difference. Quite frankly, if we were allowed to use rifle here, I could have had a beautiful 8, but at 250 yards with the shotgun? I don't think so. That buck lays right behind the houses now, making him impossible to get.

[13BVET]

I agree, every hunter should shoot what he or she wants to shoot as long as it is within the law. Of course, hunting on a lease or some one else property may also affect what you may or may not shoot.

As some have mentioned filling other people's tags, STOP. Filling other hunters' tags is harmful to management and disrespectful to your fellow hunters.

Nope. I go by the law. My buck tag is filled, and I cannot hunt this property until Muzzle loader. My friend, however, can, as he still has his tags. I'm going, but just to push the deer, nothing more.

[sampotter]

I can't say I've been in many spots where you can see 300 yds in the adks much less have a shot that far. I would think shotguns would help more bucks of all ages survive.

[13BVET]

I can't say I've been in many spots where you can see 300 yds in the adks much less have a shot that far. I would think shotguns would help more bucks of all ages survive.

And they actually do. We have no shortage of bucks down here-that's the whole point. I've actually seen more bucks than does. Hell, for that matter, I've only seen one doe where I hunt. No shortage of bucks though.