Pistol becomes a Rifle?

[Moosemaple]

Can anyone tell me if I put a rifle butt stock on my T/C hand gun with a 15" barrel, does it still qualify as a hand gun or is it classified as a rifle with a short barrel?

[WNYBuckHunter]

I'm not sure it would be legal at all. For a rifle, minimum barrel length is 16" And I don't think you can use any type of stock on a pistol. I would ask DEC if it would be legal to hunt with at all.

[bubba]

i t is entirely illegal.

[bubba]

once a frame is registered as a handgun frame, legally you cant put a rifle barrel and stock on it and vice versa. It violates federal laws. So putting a rifle frame on a handgun length barrel will really put you outside the law.

[Moosemaple]

Thanks guy's that's what I thought but I wanted to get a second opinion. I put this together and had it on the bench last summer, it seem to perform well at 100 yds.

[pistolp71]

I'm not sure it would be legal at all. For a rifle, minimum barrel length is 16" And I don't think you can use any type of stock on a pistol. I would ask DEC if it would be legal to hunt with at all.

I think it is 18". Either way it's illegal.

[WNYBuckHunter]

once a frame is registered as a handgun frame, legally you cant put a rifle barrel and stock on it and vice versa. It violates federal laws. So putting a rifle frame on a handgun length barrel will really put you outside the law.

Yes you can. It is not against the law to put a rifle, muzzleloader or shotgun barrel on an Encore if it's on your pistol permit. The subject has been visited on the site before.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I think it is 18". Either way it's illegal.

Part way down this page...

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/28182.html

[bubba]

it is not a state law it is a federal law from atf. I would dig further before I tried it.

[WNYBuckHunter]

The info came from multiple dealers. They have an extra box they need to check or fill out on the forms for any gun that can be converted to and from a pistol, etc. I spoke to them because I was thinking of getting ML and rifle barrels for my old Encore. Also, you can have multiple caliber pistol barrels, they just list each caliber on your permit with the same frame serial. When you sell a barrel, it is removed from your permit and associated with a different frame serial.

[Moosemaple]

In 8-Y I can legally hunt with a hand gun as long as it has a 15" barrel, I had some roto cuff problems in my right shoulder, that is the reason I bought it so I could hunt that year. I will check into the barrel registration, I purchased a 243 barrel for it two years ago the original was a 270-Win, and when the barrel came in I picked it up and the dealer did not do any paper work, or state that I had to register it on my permit. I did not think that a certified dealer would release a barrel if had to be registered?

[WNYBuckHunter]

I would go talk to the county clerk before you have any issues. You do have to register each caliber on your permit. That is what I was told by the county clerk.

[bubba]

yes you have to register each caliber here at least in my county. I still say once a frame is registered as a pistol frame it is ilegal tp put a barrel longer than 16 inches on it any more than you can put a barrel longer than 16 inches on any pistol. Not gonna argue but check with the atf. It is a sticky thing but it is an atf law. To do so, it has ot be sold and re reguistered as a rifle frame. When you buy a new frame it is either pistol or rifle right from the factory. You have to purchase a new one with the correct stocks.

I had submitted a question to the BATF regarding the legality of attaching a folding stock to a pistol with a 16" barrel. I had in mind a Thompson Encore 15" .30-06 w/permanently attached muzzle break (for 16" total). I thought the response was interesting and would be appreciated by the many Encore/Contender enthusiasts who have grappled with the legal ramifications of reconfiguration:

-------------------------------

Dear __________________:

This is in reply to your correspondence which was received by the Firearms Technology Branch, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), on January 30, 2008. In your letter you inquire about the attachment of a folding stock to a pistol having a barrel length of 16 inches or greater.

As background, 27 CFR Sec. 479.11 (Meaning of Terms) states, in part:

The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.

Based on this description of overall length and its correct measurement, ATF has taken the position that firearms having folding or collapsible stocks are properly measured for overall length with the stock fully extended.

In the situation you present, the attachment of a folding shoulder stock to a pistol having a barrel length of 16 inches or greater would be lawful as long as the overall length of the resulting firearm is at least 26 inches with the stock fully extended. We caution that, because the configuration you have specified results in the manufacture of a rifle, a subsequent reconfiguration of the firearm to a pistol configuration would result in a weapon made from a rifle, which is a weapon controlled by the National Firearms Act (NFA).

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive.

Sincerely yours,

John R. Spencer

Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

Edited January 10, 2012 by bubba

[bubba]

once you put a barrel longer than 16 inches on your pistol frome, it can nit be converted back to a pistol unless you want to deal with the atf.

[bubba]

hopefully i can paste this scroll down for a letter from atf regarding encore and contender

Converting Rifles to Handguns.txt

Edited January 10, 2012 by bubba

[Culvercreek hunt club]

The following is a determination letter by the BATF on the issue. This was sent out in July 2011.

I am including the link of the site I found this on. It seems as though the dispute has been boiling for some time. I think this is the same infor Bubba posted above but I read the end of it differently than he does based on post #14. I am highlighting the paragraphs I believe are pertinent to the encores.

http://www.bellmtcs....dex.php?cid=239

U.S. Department of Justice

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Office of the Director

Washington, DC 20226

26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3): DEFINITIONS (FIREARM ) 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4): DEFINITIONS (FIREARM) 26 U.S.C. 5845©: DEFINITIONS (RIFLE) 27 CFR 479.11: DEFINITIONS (RIFLE)

27 CFR 479.11: DEFINITIONS (PISTOL)

A firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; or ( convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm. A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts within a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length). A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol). A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle.

ATF Rul. 2011-4

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received requests from individuals to classify pistols that are reconfigured into rifles, for personal use, through the addition of barrels, stocks, and other parts and then returned to a pistol configurationbyremovalofthosecomponents. Specifically,ATFhasbeenaskedto determine whether such a pistol, once returned to a pistol configuration from a rifle, becomes a „weapon made from a rifle‰ as defined under the National Firearms Act (NFA).

Some manufacturers produce firearm receivers and attachable component parts that are designed to be assembled into both rifles and pistols. The same receiver can accept an interchangeable shoulder stock or pistol grip, and a long (16 or more inches in length) or short (less than 16 inches) barrel. These components are sold individually, or as unassembled kits. Generally, the kits include a receiver, a pistol grip, a pistol barrel less than 16 inches in length, a shoulder stock, and a rifle barrel 16 inches or more in length.

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Certain parts or parts sets are also designed to allow an individual to convert a pistol into a rifle without removing a barrel or attaching a shoulder stock to the pistol. These parts consist of an outer shell with a shoulder stock into which the pistol may be inserted. When inserted, the pistol fires a projectile through a rifled extension barrel that is 16 inches or more in length, and with an overall length of 26 inches or more. Other parts sets require that certain parts of the pistol, such as the pistol barrel and the slide assembly, be removed from the pistol frame prior to attaching the parts sets. Typically, a separate barrel is sold with the parts set, which is 16 inches or greater in length. The barrel is installed along with an accompanying shoulder stock. The resulting firearm has a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an overall length of 26 inches or more.

The NFA, Title 26, United States Code (U.S.C.), Chapter 53, requires that persons manufacturing, importing, transferring, or possessing firearms as defined in the NFA comply with the Act‚s licensing, registration, and taxation requirements. The NFA defines the term „firearm‰ at 26 U.S.C. 5845(a) to include „(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;‰ („short-barreled rifle‰) and „(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length‰ („weapon made from a rifle‰). The term „rifle‰ is defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845© and 27 CFR 479.11 as „a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.‰ Although not defined in the NFA, the term „pistol‰ is defined by the Act‚s implementing regulations, 27 CFR 479.11, as „a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and ( a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s)‰ (emphasis added).

Unassembled Parts Kits

In United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Company, 504 U.S. 505 (1992), the United States Supreme Court examined whether a short-barreled rifle was „made under the NFA when a carbine-conversion kit consisting of a single-shot „Contender pistol was designed so that its handle and barrel could be removed from its receiver, and was packaged with a 21-inch barrel, a rifle stock, and a wooden fore-end. The Court held that, where aggregated parts could convert a pistol into either a regulated short-barreled rifle, or an unregulated rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, the NFA was ambiguous and applied the „rule of lenity‰ (i.e., ambiguities in criminal statutes should be resolved in favor of the defendant) so that the pistol and carbine kit, when packaged together, were not considered a „short-barreled rifle‰ for purposes of the NFA.

However, the Court also explained that an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel); or ( convert a

-3- complete weapon into an NFA firearm (e.g., a pistol and attachable shoulder stock, or a

long-barreled rifle and attachable short barrel). Id. at 511-13. Assembly of Weapons from Parts Kits

The Thompson/Center Court viewed the parts within the conversion kit not only as a Contender pistol, but also as an unassembled „rifle‰ as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845©. The inclusion of the rifle stock in the package brought the Contender pistol and carbine kit within the "intended to be fired from the shoulder" language in the definition of rifle at 26 U.S.C. 5845©. Id. at 513 n.6. Thompson/Center did not address the subsequent assembly of the parts. United States v. Ardoin, 19 F.3d 177, 181 (5th Cir. 1994). Based on the definition of „firearm‰ in 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), if parts are assembled into a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, a regulated short-barreled rifle has been made. See, e.g., United States v. Owens, 103 F.3d 953 (11th Cir. 1997); United States v. One (1) Colt Ar-15, 394 F. Supp. 2d 1064 (W.D.Tenn. 2004). Conversely, if the parts are assembled into a rifle having a barrel or barrels 16 inches in length or more, a rifle not subject to the NFA has been made.

Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or „any other weapon‰ as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or re- assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no „weapon made from a rifle‰ subject to the NFA has been made.

Nonetheless, if a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length is assembled or otherwise produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle, such a weapon is a „weapon made from a rifle‰ as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4). Such a weapon would not be a „pistol‰ because the weapon was not originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by one hand.

Held, a firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they:

(a) Serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and barrel of less than 16 inches in length); or

( Convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm, including ˆ (1) A pistol and attachable shoulder stock; and

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(2) A rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an attachable barrel of less than 16 inches in length.

Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts in a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length).

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol).

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.

To the extent this ruling may be inconsistent with any prior letter rulings, they are hereby superseded.

Date approved: July 25, 2011

Kenneth E. Melson Acting Director

It appears to me that the key is the less than 16" length. Encores and contenders are "kits" You can move the parts back and forth as you NYS pistol permit allows but you had better not assemble the butt shtock with a shorter than 16" barrel and you had better have more parts available than just the ones that assemble into a rifle witha less than 16" barrel. It reads to me in the last bold paragraph that since the "kit" was NOT "only" produced as a rifle. If you cut the barrel off a Remington 700 and made a pistol it would fall under this paragraph. It isn't a "kit" gun.

I specifically asked Monroe county about this when I registered my last pistol and they told ne since the receiver of the Encore had the serial number it would be listed and they would list various in the caliber section. This would cover any pistol caliber barrel I were to put on it. I am going to do a lot more digging before I try any of this stuff.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Culvercreek hunt club

[Moosemaple]

Culver Creek and Bubba, Thanks for all the information, I have the encore hand gun, and a encore pro hunter rifle. I will just leave them as they are. I will go to my county clerks office and get the 243 barrel added to my permit

[WNYBuckHunter]

From what I read in all of it,and what I have been told by more than 1 gun dealer, switching between the two is 100% legal. Bubba, the letter that you posted only talks about adding a stock to a pistol with a barrel longer than 16 inches, not the same thing as putting a rifle barrel on an interchangeable frame. Maybe I'll have to look up the email addy for general info at the ATF and ask them so we can put this to bed.

[bubba]

you are welcome to do as you want. I for one will not be exchanging them.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Here is the email I sent to the ATF regarding this issue...

"I am wondering what the legalities are regarding the interchanging of pistol and long gun (shotgun, muzzle loader or rifle) barrels and stocks on a Thompson Center Arms Encore. More specifically, if you register the Encore frame with a (or multiple) pistol barrel, is it then legal to use that frame with a long gun barrel and stock set? Alternatively, is it legal to buy the Encore as a long gun, and later purchase a pistol barrel and grip set, and register the frame with it. I live in NY and would need to register any handguns on my NY pistol permit.

Thanks in advance,

John"

I'll post the reply I get.

[bubba]

The key part of that letter is the part that says if the contender comes with a stock to shoot from the shoulder. If you buy a new frame, you have ot designate whether you want rifle or pistol. You can not buy both sets with the frame. So, if the frams does not come with both a set of stocks and grips, you can not interchange. And legally you can not buy it one with both. The frame is designated as a long gun or pistol frame from the factory and that info is sent to the atf. If you purchase a used frame, you are supposed to call t/c to find out the original designation. and use it accordingly. When the contenders were originally marketed, you could get it with both stocks. The law covered it as such. The result of this law suit was now they can not sell a new one with both configurations. And the other part of the law suit was that if you put a rifle barrel on a pistol configuration, it can not legally be converted back to a handgun. Now realistically I understand that the chances of an atf agent checking your set up are nill. But let there be some type of legal concern, and see how quickly they check it out. WHat your local county clerk lets you do, does not make it legal with the atf. The last thing I want is them breathing down my neck.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I'll wait to hear the facts from the horses mouth. What every dealer I have spoken to has said directly contradicts what you are saying. At no point have I ever been told I would need to call TC before I purchase a frame or heard anyone advertise one as pistol frame or rifle frame, etc. and I have been doing a lot of research on them lately because of the one I just bought.

[bubba]

I hope you get a straight answer. However if you expect that from the govt good luck. Go ask a dealer to sell you a new frame with both a rifle stock and a pistol grip and see what the answer is.

[Paula]

federal law says anything under 16" is classified as pistol and can not have a stock on it

[Culvercreek hunt club]

federal law says anything under 16" is classified as pistol and can not have a stock on it

That isn't accurate. you can have a carbine with a barrel under 16" and a rifle stock BUT you MUST have the proper paperwork filed with the Fed's and pay their hefty fee.