Doc

Ah, the list is way too long. But just to name a few: I miss the days when gas prices really weren't a major budget item. I miss all the neighborhood farms. I miss the time when you actually knew all of your neighbors. Everybody knew everybody. I miss the time when the rare car came down the road you actually took notice because it usually was someone you knew. I miss the time when I could actually just walk across the road without standing waiting for a break in the traffic. I miss the local general stores that were spotted around the rural countryside. Ours was 1/4 mile up the road. I miss the peace and quiet without the constant roar of traffic, and the dirt bikes, chainsaws and ATVs all over the valley. The worst thing you might have heard was a tractor, or the neighbor kid working on his hot-rod. I miss the grouse and rabbit hunting. Those two species seem to have disappeared. I miss the crazy action during deer season. We had fewer deer (so they tell me), but a whole lot more shooting. I miss the semi-wilderness experience that bowhunting used to be, when it seemed like you were the only one in the woods. It was years before I actually saw another bowhunter in the woods. I miss the fact that you could hike (or hunt) the entire length of the valley on either side and never see a posted sign. The whole damned world was ours to use and nobody cared. I miss my trapline that I ran with my Grandfather. Those were great days of learning. I miss the wild nature of the state land before they carved it all up with mountain bike trails and hiking paths. I miss the Grange which was the center of social life when I was a kid. I miss that one room school house (the one with the outhouse out back) that I went to for a couple of years before the centralized school system was implemented. ....ha-ha. Not a whole lot of school tax back then I'll bet. Yeah, I miss all those things and a lot more, but that is just the evolution of life. There are a lot of things that went on before I got here that I would have missed too if I had gotten to experience them....lol. There are some new things that are pretty good features added to life as well. Yeah, people after me will be "missing" those too someday.

Pay the money. Improved trigger pull is well worth the cost. Actually, that is one area where I wouldn't consider it a do-it-yourself project unless you have the skills and knowledge and maybe proper guidance to do it. It could become a safety issue.

When you say you all have it "set up really nice", you don't mean that you have done any clearing or backstopping or other modifications .... right?

Yeah, I think enough people have seen how quickly lighting conditions can change, especially in the typical slimey, cloudy, crappy, November weather that expanding the hunting hours really is not a very big "want" with a lot of hunters. I know there have been a lot of evenings when I am on my way out from an afternoon stand that I feel a bit uncomfortable wondering how many guys are stretching the hunting hours. I don't know about the per capita accident rates of states around us, but I do know how fast the lighting changes here in NY around sunrise or sunset, when there is heavy, cloudy weather or in a woods with a heavy, mature over-story. It really doesn't have me very supportive of expanding the hours any further than they already are. And really, I don't feel very "punished because of it.....lol. I don't know, I guess it's just a difference of opinion.

Imagine the terror of standing in absolute darkness and hearing that sound (nobody mistakes what that sound is). I think a little sinister laughing right afterward would enhance the panic. I wonder if the guy would open the door before going through it on his way out.

The bad news is that I have yet to put a single round through it. I am waiting for all these darn deer seasons to get over with. My range is up in the woods behind the house (50 yard range) and up on top the hill (100 yard range), and I don't dare get caught up in the woods with a centerfire .... This year we are still a "shotgun only" area. So I've got a little more than a week before I can get out there and check it out.

Too late guys. I already bought the Ruger American .270 (see photos in previous reply in this thread). In fact, I am in the process of pricing and sourcing all the reloading equipment and components. Thanks all for the advice.

A poacher that uses a spotlight is breaking the law. We do not do that so we are we are just playing by rules that are more punishing us than the poachers. There are countless examples of poachers getting an advantage over the law abiding. So should we change laws to even the playing field between us and the poachers? Of course not. I think the sun-rise to sunset laws are in place for safety reasons. We might disagree as to whether that is overly cautious, but the reason for the law should not take into consideration whether there is a fairness relative to lawbreakers. If we did that, we would have to trash all conservation laws ..... right?

This year we had only one day with a sufficient snow cover to make the deer stand out from the background. I believe that in addition to the additional complications of barren ground tracking, the lack of snow is giving more hunters hurried shots of fleeing deer instead of shots at deer spotted well in advance against the snow and careful prepared shots. Those rushed shots of bounding away white deer rumps are a cause of a lot of wounding losses. Jump-shooting deer is a very low percentage way of hunting. Your other point about hunters that assume a miss if the deer doesn't go down in a heap reminds me of something that happened years ago. I was just coming in from a morning hunt when I heard a shot in the field next to the house. I went over to the hedge-row to see what was going on and I saw 5 deer come out of the thicket. Four crossed the field and went up the hill. The 5th one kind of came into the field and hooked around back toward the thicket. I expected to hear another shot, but instead saw a guy come out of the thicket, stepped into the field and before I could yell over to him about the one deer that went back into the thicket, the guy swung a quick glance right then left and did an about face back into the thicket. It all happened in less than a minute. I kind of stood there stunned not knowing exactly what was going on. In a couple of minutes I heard a car door slam out by the road, the car started and the guy took off. Unbelieveable, I was certain that deer was hit and I suspected it was hit hard. So I headed off to the other end of the field, and before I knew it I came across a big splotch of blood. It had to have been within 20 feet of where the guy stopped. I followed the blood in a semicircle back to the edge of the thicket and there was the biggest doe I have ever seen. If that guy had done even the most fundamental attempt at tracking that deer, it would have been the easiest tracking job ever. No there was not any snow, but in this case it really wasn't even needed. Well in this one case, the deer did not go to waste. But I have to wonder just how often this sloppy follow-up goes on out there.

There is no question hunting practices and attitudes have evolved, and not all change is necessarily good. The ideas of tradition, and heritage are being replaced by technology and expediency. And as you pointed out, motivations and measures of satisfaction have evolved as well. Success is now measured in numbers so hunters can compete with other hunters for bragging rights. Hunters are also becoming urbanized and the family connection within the hunting community is practiced by fewer and fewer of us. With all these massive cultural changes in hunting, it is interesting to see people on this thread voicing their opinions based on traditional values that they were raised with. It is basically the last vestige of tradition kicking its feet. There may come a time when people don't even worry about how they get their "high scoring" bucks. Maybe some of those concerns have already been bred out of a lot of us. That wouldn't be a good thing. So, if some people want to cry foul (right or wrong) at some of the practices, I actually feel they are trying to get back to the traditional approaches to hunting that they were raised with. I'm not too worried about it. It all makes good discussions and actually tempers our obsession with "success at any cost". We may or may not agree with some of these things, but I find it encouraging that people are even talking about such things as "fair chase" and hunting ethics. It's a whole lot better than not having any concern with such things at all.

We have argued the hell out of what belongs in bow season over the past bunch of years, and repeating the same things over and over does not convert an opinion to fact. If this new device turns out to be a viable big-game weapon (this design or the next), the argument will be starting all over again from scratch. And whether limbs and strings are ever even mentioned in the official debate and the end decision we can only guess. I have watched those definitions get twisted beyond recognition, so I am not about to say what new arguments will be brought out by the supporters. I'm sure they would include the aged and the infirm and the new infusion of hunters into our declining numbers and all the other standard emotional leverages. What I will not try to guess is what new bending of definitions that would take place. I am always amazed at how creative people can be. It would be funny if some day it did become an issue. It would be worth it just to watch those that called NYB exclusionary, elite, and selfish, squirm and dance as they find themselves selfishly trying to safeguard their bow season by excluding a new category of hunters and their weapons. That would be funny. I don't think I would even get involved in the debate .... just sit back and watch the hypocracy .... lol. Of course that all assumes that anybody would even care enough to fight the inclusion. Maybe this would be considered "pitting hunter against hunter". That would be the worst kind of action wouldn't it? Can't we all just get along???? ....lol.

C'mon ..... nobody going to brave the winter with their trusty bow and arrow?

I know there may be some extreme cases, but when I get so bad that I can't carry my bow in and out each day, I'll probably be so old and decrepit that I won't be able to pull it back ..... lol. In that case anybody can have it that finds it. No, seriously after having had my camera stolen, I get downright paranoid about leaving anything that I might ever want again behind. Just like I would never walk out of the woods leaving my gun propped up against a tree, I would not leave my bow either.

My deer hunting is over for the year (wimp ... lol), but I know some of you will be participating in the late season. Just curious ..... what will be your weapon of choice?

So how many of you people are going to get out for the late bow season? I'm done for the year, but curious as to how many are the real die-hards.

I do understand what it is that bothers some people about some of the tactics used these days. I might even be a little more hard-core in my judgement of these things than many others. I am even to the point where I wouldn't use a guide because to me he is essentially doing all the hunting and I am doing the shooting. I am also heavily against what I consider a canned hunt. So I am not without my biases. And on occasion, I have let my biases show a little bit .... lol. I generally try not to make a big deal of it, but I will say that when someone fills their den with mounts from a game farm, it does put a bit of a stigma on those kills. It really does cheapen the achievement and in my eyes makes it all kind of a worthless accomplishment that shows nothing other than he has deep pockets and can afford to buy his trophies. I try not to be that close-minded, but I just can't help having those thoughts creep into my mind. The only thing that I find unfortunate is when I hear non-hunters start talking like that sort of stuff is what hunting is all about. That tells me that in a lot of cases I and whatever achievements that I have accomplished are being lumped in with these "short-cutted" versions of hunting. That bothers me a bit.

I'm wondering about porcupines and the salty sweat residue on the hand-grip. I've heard of them chewing up canoe paddles because of that. Yeah, that probably is a bit far-fetched. The areas that I hunt don't have any porkys. However, I know for a fact that there are a few 2-legged critters that have no problem stealing things when they come across them. I am out one $200 camera because I thought it was in a spot where no one would ever go.

As fasteddie always tells us ..... it beats the alternative .... lol.

Well, these guys were far enough away from me that I wasn't really being affected. But it did stir my curiosity. Yeah, if they had been just a couple hundred yards away, I would have had an entirely different attitude. Most likely I would have put some distance between me and them.

Most of my bench-rest shooting is a fascination with how well I can make my gun perform. I do a lot of experimental reloading trying to get little tiny groups. However, in the process, there is an awful lot of things like breath control and surprise triggering and other features of the technical parts of shooting that get to be second nature just through repetition. All practice has value relating to hunting. I also do some occasional off-hand shooting just to try to re-affirm that I ain't worth a damn at it. That too is some good knowledge to gain from target practice. Knowing your short-comings is a good thing, and applying that knowledge to your hunting set-ups can be a great advantage over those that do not do much shooting. I know from actual shooting experience that nothing will ever make these old arms rock steady again. So Through my practice, I have learned what must be done to make a good ethical and humane shot. That is why I never take running shots. That is also why I always use a tree or something to steady myself down when shooting in a hunting situation. Also, on the thread about ground stands, you will notice that the constructions shown in the pictures there generally are built with 360 degrees of horizontal logs to be used as "gun rests" wherever I need one. I usually have everything but the sand-bags .... lol. My bench-rest shooting is a direct contributer to those features in my stands. They are probably something that wouldn't occur to me without my shooting practice and understanding what it takes for me to get the accuracy edge.

That's why I posed the question. I was responding to what he said about his estimate of his reloading rate which was: "i doubt i will reload over 100 rounds per yr per guy unless we buy or find some more brass, we are not big shooters just mostly hunters... (between us all this yr we used about 20 rounds of ammo, mostly me missing deer lol)". 100 rounds per year is 5 boxes. At that rate, and granting that it may very well take 33 boxes to break even, we're talking about more than 6 years just to break even, and that is assuming that there is no value to be placed on his time. And then the follow-up comment about only using 20 rounds of ammo all this year, the amount of payback time at that kind of rate would be unbelieveable at that rate of consumption. That's why I mentioned that making money at reloading is really a function of normal ammo consumption. A lot of us also reload to maximize accuracy by finding loads and components that work well through an individual gun. I find myself getting absolutely anal about consistancy and accuracy in weights and measures and procedures just to take out any loading errors. For me it is all pretty painstaking activity that burns up a lot of time. If I ever added up all the time that it takes to produce each box of ammo, and paid myself even sub-minimum wages, they still would be very expensive rounds .... lol. So anyway, that is why I mentioned the cost factor. I know a lot of people have this subconscious vision of reloading as free ammo. It's always good to realize that if you shoot very little, reloading can be a very expensive proposition compared to just walking into the store once a year or so and buying factory ammo.

Usually, if the deer is running, I wait until he stops or slows almost to a stop. If he keeps on running, I just let him go. I'm not a big fan of running shots. If they are walking, I will look ahead for the nearest opening and find him in the scope there.

I would be willing to bet what you heard was a thing that beavers do with their tail. In fact I'm almost positive from the description you gave that that's what it was. When they get scared or just plain irritated, they slam that tail on the surface of the water and make a heck of a rackett. I don't know exactly why they do that unless it's supposed to be a warning to other beavers of the colony.

Ice? .... Ice? ...... I seem to remember something that used to cover our local lakes that people referred to as ice. That was a long time ago.

I hear what you are saying, but I remember when inclusion of a crossbow in bowseason was unthinkable as well, or to a lesser extent, the compound bow. I mean really adamantly unthinkable. I truly hope you are absolutely right. But I have watched a lot of decades of evolution of bow hunting and the attitude changes that have occured toward bowhunting, and I am not ready to say that anything is impossible. From the time when I first got into bowhunting (early 1960's), I have to say that most of the equipment has absolutely no similarity to what was originally considered to be archery equipment. I don't expect those kinds of radical changes to all of a sudden stop. I know we all think we have firm control and limits on these things, but history has shown that we really don't. It is all a slowly evolving activity with evergreen rules and restrictions.