Doc

I agree. I think it is the little side effects of baiting that are the worst impacts on hunting. Some of the things that you have mentioned come to mind. What it boils down to is that it is an attempt to condition deer and make them move out of their natural random patterns just to make them more available for killing and to concentrate deer onto the property of the baiter, away from those that do not use bait. And yes, it becomes a requirement because it does change deer natural patterns for those that don't rely on bait. There is also the potential for starting baiting wars where neighbors try to out-do (out-spend) each other in an attempt to "hoard" deer. Of course the DEC has different reasons for outlawing baiting that regard herd health issues. But as for myself, I think that a baiting legality has the potential for changing the very nature of hunting for everybody whether you engage in it or not. And that change is not necessarily something that is good for hunting or hunters.

What a great stand last night was. 80.8 degrees when I left the house in the afternoon. I really need to buy a short-sleeve camo tee-shirt. It didn't matter anyway. I'm sure all the deer were laying down in deep cover until nightfall. Probably laying on their back with their feet in the air trying to suck in one good breath of air. The bugs came back out. I don't know what they are, but they don't bite. They just like swarming all over and banging into your face. Anyway needless to say, I saw absolutely nothing. Temp today is supposed to be in the 70's so I think this will be a good day to take off and get something done besides hunting. A lot of fall work has not been getting done. Actually, this weather isn't all that uncommon. It might be a bit extreme, but I remember other bowhunting days over the years when I had to forsake my camo for any old dull colored tee-shirt because of the heat. October is a wacky month. Guess I'll have to pickup some hot weather hunting camo or just skip the hot ones completely.

Maybe it had something to do with you sitting in the treestand that was set up next to it with your bow .....lol.

So, exactly how do you get a full-grown man out of a tree when he's dangling a bunch of feet off the ground. I've been trying to picture how I would go about it, but I can only visualize one rescuer on the ladder at a time. I suppose they may have gotten the ladder next to the guy so he could get on it. But supposedly he had some sort of ankle injury. Also they had to unfasten him from the tether. It's the kind of thing that sounds like it might be pretty easy to say, but not so easy to do .... lol.

I have no problems with them as long as they are picked up when you leave. We have all kinds of weird things hanging around the woods. You know old drip-tubes and such. We probably don't need a bunch of old aerosol cans laying around too. You would not believe the crap that people drag in and leave behind .... lol.

Kind of a "neighborhood watch" thing in the country. Great idea! My neighbor and I have a standing agreement to keep an eye out for each other's property. It's not a bad idea, because even though we are out in the boonies, there still are occasional burglaries and other crazy things going on along with the run-of-the-mill trespass situations. One neighbor goes south in a while, and we keep an eye on their place. We have a family contact to call if we spot anything that looks out of place.

I'm afraid Jennifer is probably right. Such semi-threatening statements puts you right at the top of the suspect list if one of his dogs meets a strange ending. That's not often a very comfortable place to be. Use some caution around these kinds of situations. Nasty neighbor wars can become pretty ugly and potentially costly. There are indications that some of these animal rights people are not always the most rational people that you will ever deal with....lol.

I am a little concerned about the use of unmarked cars, or cars that are difficult to identify, pulling people over. How long will it be before some of these non-law enforcement wackos start using light bars to stop people. I understand that sometimes cops need an unmarked car for radar traps. But they should use plainly marked chase cars just for the public's safety.

At this time of year, patterns can shift overnight. When the leaves start falling, expect summer patterns to break down. Also farm crops are being harvested right now, so that too can change deer movements instantly. Small game hunters add another variable. Other bowhunters can put pressure on certain areas and move deer into different patterns. Weather has shifted seasons, that can change the summer patterns of deer. There is also talk of some rut activity beginning. That absolutely will move deer. The point is that we are right in the middle of massive changes for the deer, and you should be expecting significant pattern shifts. And none of it has anything to do with foxes. No deer is afraid of a fox, that I have ever seen. Time for a little in-season scouting to play catch-up with the current deer movements. Personally I might be tempted to do a bit of predator calling after deer season, but it would have absolutely nothing to do with concerns about foxes changing deer behavior.

I do the same thing regarding noting the times when the first shot is fired. I have to say that most of the time, I have absolutely no idea of what they are shooting at or how they can even determine that what they are shooting at is actually a deer. That just gives you an idea of what things might be like if there was not some kind of reasonable limit regarding start and stop times.

I understand that the closer to dark we can hunt, the more active the deer are likely to be. But there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Weather conditions can heavily impact visibilty and actual safe and practical hunting light available. I've seen some cloudy, drizzlly days when the sunset or sunrise rule was even a bit questionable. I think I am pretty happy with the way things are.

"Hunting" means pursuing, shooting, killing or capturing (other than trapping as defined in subdivision 11) wildlife, except wildlife which has been lawfully trapped or otherwise reduced to possession and includes all lesser acts such as disturbing,harrying or worrying, whether they result in taking or not, and every attempt to take, and every act of assistance to any other person in taking or attempting to take wildlife. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I'll bet the language about "disturbing, harrying, and worrying" relates to deer drives. I think the indication attempted is that drivers participating in deer drives (armed or not) are also subject to laws regarding hunting. That's just a guess, but it is the only thing that makes any sense to me. They want some words in the law to indicate that anyone participating in any kinds of hunting activities are subject to the definitions and laws regarding actual hunting. We have another thread that talks about the DEC laws prohibiting deer feeding being challenged based partially on "vagueness". Here is just another one of many that may someday be challenged on the same basis.

If "vagueness" becomes a successful standard for challenging Environmental Conservation law, there are all kinds of target laws that could become court cases. We may find that the primary activity and expenditure of resources of the DEC becomes handling legal challenges.

Bubba- Have you gone completely nuts or something? You have settled down into a mode of trying to pick a fight with every member of the forum, on this and every other thread that you have gotten involved with. Calm down guy. Life is too short. Pull yourself out of this combative mode.

In case you might have missed it, there has been a few pages devoted to the discussion of a reply made on the first page of this thread, mainly: Since I had the resources and the time I figured I would go to the source. But, thank you for being so concerned about my hunting, however I doubt that I missed anything. I've become pretty good at multi-tasking .... lol.

That's what I do too ....... now.

I probably wouldn't feel real good about dragging an opened up carcass through a swamp or other stagnant water. That feeling is not based on any particular known hazards, but it just would make me feel better if I left it buttoned up until after I got past the water. So, if I had the choice, I would wait until I got on the "home" side of the water before gutting the deer.

Yeah, they have a method to their madness. We don't have that requirement because as you pointed out, by the time we get to the deer, the heart is past functioning. So either way is optional unless you have a "convenience" reason for choosing one over the other. That's pretty much what most of the relies were saying.

I have a copy of the "Environmental Conservation Law of New York". I spent a significant amount of time on stand this morning trying to find some mention of a law regarding disabling a bow or emptying a gun during hours outside of legal hunting times. Yeah, I know ...... that's a heck of a way to hunt .... lol. But I did frequently stop and scan the area for incoming deer. As it turned out, the wind was blowing like a hurricane, and I suspect the deer were all hugging the ground. Anyway, the only references to disarming that I could find regarded the use of lights or transport in motor vehicles, and had nothing to do with hunting hours. So, I came to the same conclusion as above that this idea of a requirement to lock bows and empty guns is pretty much something that somebody made up and maybe thought might make a good law. If somebody can point out the exact section number and paragraph designation of such a law, I will stand corrected. But until that time I have decided that the disarming requirement is pretty much BS.

I'm not too sure what the deer think about absolutely dead quiet surroundings, but I will say that I am not too fond of those conditions. I always feel so darned vulnerable. Kind of like every breath I take, or movement I make stands out to any deer within range. It's nice to be able to hear and see a deer from a long distance, but they can hear and see everything that you do as well. I prefer a little cover-breeze. Not a howling wind, but just enough to get a few leaves moving, and cover at least some of those subtle sounds that you make when you re-position yourself and draw your bow. A little breeze also keeps the scent direction just a little more constant too.

I keep picturing myself coming out of the woods in complete darkness with my bow (arrow knocked or not), and having someone accuse me of hunting ...... lol. Shooting at things that I can't even see is not something that I have practiced a whole lot, but I'll bet it probably can't be done. Well, the law is the law even in situations where it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

My guess is that as long as you don't violate the 500' law relating to buildings, or any local ordinances that prohibit discharge of firearms or bow/arrows, You can hunt that spot. Anyplace where you " see deer constantly" is certainly a good candidate for a hunting spot.

Apparently the environmental conservation law places a very wide definition on the term hunting, and I would assume that any law or regulation that applies to hunting (such as legal hunting hours), would be interpreted using this definition of "hunting" The term "hunting" is defined in the Environmental Conservation Law of New York, volume 1, section 11-0103, item 10, (page 11-6) as: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Hunting" means pursuing, shooting, killing or capturing (other than trapping as defined in subdivision 11) wildlife, except wildlife which has been lawfully trapped or otherwise reduced to possession and includes all lesser acts such as disturbing,harrying or worrying, whether they result in taking or not, and every attempt to take, and every act of assistance to any other person in taking or attempting to take wildlife. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's quite a mouthful, but is out of the 1984-1985 book of Environmental Conservation Law of New York. Most likely this definition of "hunting" has not been changed since this printing of the law. It's not the easiest thing to read, but as near as I can figure, the term hunting takes in a lot more than just killing an animal. Anyway, make of it what you will. This is just something that I found that relates to the discussion here. So anyway, I would say that this is what the ECO's are required to to use in determining whether or not you are hunting outside of legal hours.

Have you ever tried to theorize just what this continent would really be like if Europeans had simply stayed home .... lol. I mean the common picture of all these native people living in perfect harmony with nature and each other is mostly mythology ..... right? They really had quite a warrior society which had the same kinds of squabbles, battles and conquests that any other race of people have. From what I've read, the notion of indians skipping merrily through the woods waving and tipping their head-dress to neighboring tribesmen is really a fair-sized misrepresentation, isn't it? I also would assume that given enough time, the population levels would have them at total odds with ecology and their habitat. How much game would it really take to support a burgeoning Indian population that lived entirely on what nature was able to supply? How long would the critters and edible wild plants of the woods really last? Interesting thing to contemplate.

I don't see the choice as having anything to do with respect. Lol .... there is no real way of hanging a deer up with it's internal organs removed and the body cavity spread open for cooling, that could ever indicate respect, or lack of respect. I never even factored that thought into my decision as to how to hang a deer. Maybe we are getting a bit carried away with this "respect" thing? Well it might be a bit tacky to put a hat on it and sunglasses and stick a cigarette in it's mouth ..... lol.