Doc

Not if we are fooled into thinking we have done something significant. I'm not much of a believer in window-dressing. I firmly believe that it stifles real solutions.

As far as the safety issues, that is a non-issue. Nobody likes to see firearms deer hunting in bowseason (with the possible exception of gun hunters....lol) but really with an estimated total of 8000 participants statewide, I have a hard time considering the whole affair as being of much significance from any standpoint, safety, effectiveness, or otherwise. And we have already gone through the argument about good weather and again, if you think it is a good thing to fool kids into thinking that hunting is a warm-weather activity, then I respectfully have to disagree. And while it is nice that deer are calm, I think it is obvious and generally accepted among hunters that more deer are seen on the opening day of gun season than any other time of the year. The actual harvest numbers show that to be true also. So again, Has anybody ever heard a good explanation why the DEC chose to stuff the youth season right into the bow season .... that makes any sense?

By the way, I agree that it is a done deal now and that we are arguing over something that is unlikely to change. But my biggest fear is that it will be generally accepted that the DEC has done something significant here and all future thoughts relative to real, serious, constructive, efforts to remedy recruitment problems will cease as we all go on our merry way patting ourselves on the back and thinking the problem is solved. The supposed solution is cast in stone, but the effectiveness of it is very much in question and logic tells me that we simply have applied feel-good window dressing to a problem that needs some real innovation and serious brain-storming of new ideas. But if we should stop debating the DEC solution, we feed into that mentality that all is now well. I really don't want to see that happen.

Lol .... With all due respect, was there some kind of answer to my question about mentors buried in all that? How those questions relate to my comments about the flow of information and rumors beats the hell out of me. I guess that was just a random shot aimed at who knows what. And was there something over the past two years where the DEC explained about where these mysterious mentors were going to come from when they are so obviously missing during the regular season? I must have missed it. As far as the bowhunters becoming the mentors, It seems to me that they have simply removed a large percentage of them as mentors by making them choose between their season and the gun mentoring. Have they changed the law about bowhunting alongside of someone possessing a firearm? So that comment didn't make a whole lot of sense did it? No more than placing the youth season inside of a bow season did. The weather argument? .... well we have already done that one multiple times, but if you insist that kids need to be fooled about the comfort levels of hunting season, September provided a whole month of nice toasty weather. The holiday argument? .... just another date when there are all kinds of family activities competing with a youth hunt that wouldn't have to be dealt with on a normal weekend. So let me amend my question a bit: Has anybody ever heard a good explanation why the DEC chose to stuff the youth season right into the bow season .... that makes any sense? Look, I have been known to be a bit of an apologist for the DEC too on occasion. But when they screw up, I am quick to comment on that too. But DEC or no DEC, I am still looking for someone to stop dodging the question about where they think all these mentors will be coming from. It's a serious question and nobody seems to have an answer.

Well, I can see that you are locked into that assertion, so it's useless and a complete waste of time to continue arguing the point. Better we should talk about something that you can be a little more objective about .... lol.

You are talking about intentional poaching. I am talking about mis-identification of what can be a very confusing and misleading picture of antler set-up. Big difference.

Anybody who tells me that point counting on deer antlers in the wild is an exact activity probably is more interested in bending a discussion a bit than actually being honest about their actual observations. And I don't care whether it is a 4-point or a 12-point I have not met anyone who is as infallible at counting points as you are trying to claim. It' s not just a case of being able to count up to 3 points on the rack. That has absolutely nothing to do with the law. The law says they have to all be on the same beam. As to your assertion that such a thing cannot be a mistake, I simply think you are wrong. By the way, regarding the safety aspect of it, I will say that because you cannot make out whether that third tine is on the same beam as the other two, doesn't mean that a human looks like a deer .... lol. That's a pretty ridiculous argument. How a deer orients it's head is a long way from being a safety issue.

A deer holding it's head sideways poses a tangle of points that unless the deer is super-close can confuse the hunter as to whether all three points are on the same antler. I have seen it more times than not on smaller bucks. Now granted, if you ignore the law and only shoot bucks that have more than 3 points per side, and tines that are large enough to not be mistaken, you can improve your chances of not misreading what you think you are seeing. But that is not the law, or the intent of the law. And people should not be in a made to over-extend the law just to ensure that they are not turned into poachers. That's the only point I am making. It is sloppy lawmaking, and is not as liberal as some try to make it out to be. And for those that claim that there will be some honest mistakes left rotting in the woods, they are exactly right.

What we need is a special youth small-game hunt. That would fix it ..... lol. End of problem.

Well, I suppose it is once again about time to repeat the same old question that no one seems to want to address. If mentors are missing or unwilling during the regular season, just where are all these mentors supposed to be coming from? And now with all the wisdom that the DEC could muster, they have made a good portion of the few available mentors choose between the bow season and the youth season. Good going DEC .... lol. By the way, has anybody ever heard a good explanation why the DEC chose to stuff the youth season right into the bow season? ..... anybody?? What was the rationale? Just to create controversy and dischord? Again ... good going DEC. But anyway ..... let's blame the NYB.

The only video that I still consider to be worth watching is the one done by theWensel brothers many, many years ago called the Bowhunting October Whitetails (I think that was the name). So I have quite a bit of respect for the author of the article above (erussell's post). Those guys seemed to know bowhunting and the mentality of challenge behind it. So his words have a pretty heavy dose of credibility. By the way, the reason I say that their video is the only video worth watching is because it was the last one that really tried to educate and entertain rather than just entertain alone. And the emphasis was definitely on the education part. There was a pile of info packed into that video. Today, there really is nothing new of innovative about anything that is being put out. All hunting videos are about TV personalities (who really don't have all that much personality). They simply regurgitate the same old crap over and over and rely on some rather impressive deer genetics to peddle their redundant story over and over.

I probably agree with more of this post than most bowhunters. I have no idea where they came up with this 8000 number, and it is probably as valid as most of their numerical guestimates (and that definitely is not an endorsement of their numbers .... lol). It might even be a high estimate. I'm thinking that we probably won't even be aware it's going on. It's basically window dressing that pretty much amounts to a wasted effort that makes everybody think the recruitment problem is solved. And I really don't like anything that drives the acceptance of deer hunting with guns being stirred into deer hunting with bows. With everybody jealously eyeballing the bow season, I can see this as being used as a precedent for future incursions of firearms deer hunting in bow season. It's all incrementalism at work.

Nobody has challenged my assertion that point counting in the wild is an in-exact activity in most cases. Anyone who wants to try to say thay they have been exactly right everytime with their point counts of deer in the woods is .... how can I put this in a non-confrontational way .... maybe a bit dilusional? I have seen a lot of bucks in my day and the percentage of them that I could swear that I had an exact count on would be actually quite small, and I think anyone interested in being honest would have to say the same thing. And then to determine how many points were on a particular side cuts the percentage even more. And it wasn't about the fact that I didn't know what I was shooting at. There was no doubt in my mind that I was clearly shooting at a racked buck of satisfactory size. I knew exactly what I was shooting at. Because I couldn't count the points and determine exactly which ones were really on which side is a reason for not shooting? Well, I guess it is now in some areas. But don't kid yourself, there will be plenty of good responsible hunters that will think they see the required number of tines on one antler that will just plain be wrong. We can pretend our infallibility all we want, but that still doesn't change the fact that when it comes to a tangle of tines, we don't always see what we think we see.

Gotta call in the Hog hunters. He's been "huntin' hogs since Mobey Dick was a sardine". He'll find them.

That's all very nice history and nothing new and of course I already know all that and my complaint about the DEC has absolutely nothing to do with who is or who isn't to blame for the status of the season. Re-read my message and you will understand that the complaint is clearly about communication (or more specificly the lack of communication) to the public as to what the status of the season is. If indeed the youth season is definitely on and the DEC intends to administer it, I have to wonder why the responsibility for informing the public seems to lie with various obscure newpapers. I am wondering why there simply isn't a very clear press release (included on their web-site) that clearly says that the hunt is cleared and ok, so that the public can participate without confusion. This announcement by rumor is not the right way to do it. If it is not on, they should also make that clear. Hell, even if there still is a question about it they should say something about that. You do realize that we are only a couple weeks away? Anyone trying to make arrangements for a mentor is quickly running out of time. I have extreme doubts about the effectiveness of this hunt, but the way they are screwing up informing the public, they certainly aren't making it any more effective.

Maybe the reason that those people seemed to be apologetic about taking a small buck is because of your accusing, belittleing, and disapproving attitude. And don't be telling me about how you "really dont care what anybody else shoots either as long as its legal". I don't think there is any question in anyone's mind that the tone and content of your message says that simply isn't true. That's the problem today. We have way too many guys concerned about what other people harvest. Many of them will browbeat and belittle anyone who doesn't take a deer that they "approve" of. What a bunch of BS. I'm sure that these people would gladly drive any hunters from our ranks that refuse to abide by their standards of what is "acceptable" to harvest. And I believe that is indeed happening. That kind of arrogance has got to stop.

Well, here is the problem .... Nobody of any authority (DEC or otherwise) has come out with an official press release that flat out says that the hunt is on. I mean are they establishing seasons with rumors? What a wacked out lack of administrative responsibility. I can see the date arriving and everyone still wondering if they should be hunting or not. I put the blame squarely on the backs of the DEC. If they have made a determination that the hunt goes forward, there should have already been some kind of official press release so that everyone is not screwed up with these rumors and conflicting media reports. That is no way to run a season. We're only 2 weeks away, and still dealing in rumors without a peep from the DEC (the supposed administers of the season).

No, it doesn't have anything to do with what kind of hunter anyone is. It has to do with creating more and more laws that are trying to make inadvertant mistakes turn into poaching. But if a hunter has decided that he wants to take a buck every year as a goal, that really is none of my business, and I wish him luck with whatever buck he chooses. And by the way, I will be the first to pat him on the back and congratulate him for whatever he gets, instead of berating what he thinks is an accomplishment. Maybe we would have a few more hunters around if we didn't spend so much time worrying about whether his success measures up to our expectations.

And so we are really talking a defacto increase in the legal requirement as stated in law ..... just to ensure that mistakes are not made. That was one of the ways that I listed as ensuring that you never make a miscount by transposing a tine from one antler to the other. Interesting how a 3-point rule can be used to make a restriction even more restrictive. We just can't seem to restrict ourselves and our fellow hunters enough can we?

Any groups that I get would be only because I had an arrow go real bad. I use a four spot target face, shooting only one arrow at each spot. I don't want to see any "groups" ...... lol.

Actually, Things are a little easier on the ground if your blind is set up properly. My ground stands generally have a substantial wall of cover for me to duck behind and get set for shooting in any direction necessary. In a treestand, I always felt very exposed when something unexpected happened and I had to move. As far as standing all the time, I have reached the point in my life where that just ain't going to happen.

Absolutely, you can 100% guarantee that you don't violate an antler count restriction or any other kind of AR..... If you eliminate most of your shot opportunities and only shoot deer that are so close that it is impossible to confuse the tines of each antler. And shoot only when light conditions are absolutely perfect. And shoot only deer that far exceed the legal minimum of points. And shoot only deer that give a good display of there antlers. And have all the time in the world to study the deer for a long time before shooting. And shoot only deer that parade back and forth around you giving you a look from every angle. And most reliable of all, simply don't shoot. Nobody will ever convince me that they were reliably able to count the points on the majority of bucks that they see in the woods ..... Nobody. Now it is time to be honest. Are you really trying to tell me that you don't believe that there will be honest bona-fide mistakes? Can you honestly say that it would really be impossible for you to make a mistake? Now, I did say to be honest. Do you believe that you have ever mis-counted tines on a buck or do you think you always get it right? It is nice to think that every law is created with practicality included. You would like to think that regulations and laws are made with at least some thought given to practicality and general ease of compliance. And it is quite easy to say that mistakes never should happen. But here in the real world, we understand that complexity adds unintended consequences. To pass laws that promote that is in itself a bit irresponsible. So the question is, why does every new regulation come with an incremental level of complexity? Are we trying to see just how much frustration we can throw in the face of hunters? Is this AR stuff really just a test to see how many we can lure into making illegal mistakes?

Do people actually sit and stare at magazine covers, day-dreaming about whatever deer is shown there? I can't say that I have ever done that.....lol.

This was found in the Q&A section below: Q: Is there a special "Youth Hunt" season for deer or bear? A: No. Junior Hunters and their mentors must hunt during the normal deer and bear seasons.

Yeah that was a bit brief. We have a long ways to go before the stress on trees and vegetation actually get any real relief. A lot of trees are going straight to brown leaves and dropping. I've seen a few small trees in people's yards that really look quite dead or dying. I can walk across my pond now without even getting by feet muddy (and I really don't have the ability to walk on water .....lol).