Doc

Ok, but I thought this thread was about a personal moral wrestling match you were going through. If you are talking about debate material to justify hunting, I would suggest that you simply examine why you hunt and base your arguments accordingly. Anyone that I am trying to "win over" will have to be convinced of why I hunt and the fact that it has nothing to do with playing one population against the other. If they can't accept that, then the debate is over. You see, you started out the thread by assuming that we justify hunting based on the fact that as hunters we are required to step in where vanished predators are no longer doing the job. I'm saying that that is not my reason for hunting. That is not even in my mind when I am out there hunting and it would be dishonest of me to say that it was. Population control may be a by-product but it is not the reason I am hunting. If I use that reason to justify hunting to someone else, my argument is going to sound hollow and is not going to be believable simply because it's not the true reason that I hunt.

Two for 8N, and I expect to fill both of them this year.

First of all, I still maintain that humans are not efficient population controllers of coyotes. The only places where I have ever heard of where humans were able to make permanent, significant changes in coyote populations are from rancher activities out west when bounties and poisons were regularly used. Here in NYS we do not have the will to control coyote populations. There is no financial incentives to do that. Trappers and hunters can be marginally effective for short periods of time and on a very limited basis, but I have never heard of these activities by themselves being a significant control of coyote populations especially when it is done at the insignificant rate that it is practiced in NYS. So there is no justified contradiction that I can see. If I shoot a coyote, there will be no noticeable impact on the deer herd as the initial thread premise assumed. Second, I do not reconcile predator hunting even if it were to be mistakenly motivated as being for the benefit of deer populations. I don't reconcile it because I don't feel the need to. And that is where all the talk on this thread about why we hunt began. I do not hunt coyotes to control coyote populations or to have any effect on deer populations (we have antlerless permits that are designed to perform that function). When I do hunt coyotes or any kind of predator it is simply because it is another separate species to hunt. And so, I don't feel any contradictions or controversies or dilemmas. Also, even if we could magically manipulate coyote populations to favor deer populations, I would never feel a need to justify that to anybody or question the morals or ethics behind that decision. It is a non-issue as far as I am concerned. There is no legitimate concern there. I place that emotional struggle in the same vein as arguing that no one should hunt things that they do not eat. That too another emotional wrestling match that I simply don't get involved in. The short answer to it all is that no reconciliation is required. It doesn't belong in the realm of ethics or morals and certainly is not a dilemma. At least that is the way I view it all. Others certainly may view it differently, but I feel that getting into those kinds of emotional aspects of hunting is beginning to play the anti-hunters game. And I don't play that.

In fact that we do not have bag limits on the coyote that you are concerned about shooting. Furthermore, there is a very limited participation in coyote hunting. And on top of that, the coyote sits on top of his food chain with the only exception being hunters and disease (and maybe a car or two ..... lol). So whether you shoot that coyote or not, you will have absolutely no significant impact on the deer herd. Certainly, if you spare that coyote, you will not make any difference in how many deer have to be harvested the following year. So there really is no contradiction. Yes, we have an intensive deer, bear, and turkey management system that has some levels of success at population control. Does that mean that we have any kind of control on predator/prey ratios? ...... I don't think so. But more to the point we are talking about a perceived contradiction of predator/prey balancing through hunting. And I maintain that there is nothing we can do as hunters to achieve or effect that balance. So go ahead and shoot that coyote. There is no need to feel that hunting predators is going to cause some explosion in deer populations or any other prey population. In the greater scheme of things, you will make absolutely no significant impact because we are incapable of regulating predator/prey ratios to a self-sustaining level. Hunting predators is not at odds with deer management.

I've got a few "face" pictures, but that one with the eyeball is really a good one. I usually get a nose picture. That one really needs to be blown up and framed.....lol.

My condolences on the loss of some very expensive equipment ..... lol. Yes, we all want one to hang up in the den or wherever. So now you got yours and now it is time to start shooting at different spots for each arrow. It took me a while before I caught on to the expense of those things. I was up to 7 of them when I started pulling them apart to try to salvage components. At that point I realized that I couldn't keep shooting 4 or 5 arrow groups without sacrificing a lot of money. I also realized that my robin hoods were primarily a function of luck. Since I never called one before it happened, it was obvious that I could not make it happen on demand. After all, I am not a Byron Ferguson or a Howard Hill. That would be impressive if I could announce that I was going to purposly execute a robin hood on the next arrow .... lol. Anyway, all my practice targets have 4 bullseyes on them and are meant to have one arrow - one bullseye. If I get a robin hood now it will be because I have missed very badly.

I guess you have assumed that we hunt only to control populations. In actuality, that is only a side effect of our hunting. Perhaps we are effective in deer population control and perhaps bear populations, but there is no way that we have any effect on predator populations, or the bunnies or the squirrels, or the grouse populations, etc., etc. So I don't really see our hunting of predators as being a contradiction because I don't believe in the original premise that our hunting them has any impact on the populations of other critters. To be honest with you, I don't believe that the predator hunting in NYS is in any way effective or has any significance in population control of anything .... including the predators themselves. We do not rely on predator control for population control of other species. That is a losing battle. On your second point .... here you have made the assumption that we are actually hunting to control the genetic make-up of the herd. We are not. Nor are we capable of doing that. Again that is the reason for all the "why we hunt" replies. They are simply reactions to a flawed premise in the original post of why we hunt. Hunting has nothing to do with hunting based natural selection and evolution of superior or inferior deer. We don't really have it in our power to do that. We have been hunting the biggest, best and strongest of the herd for generations, and have yet to make any significant change in the make-up of the herd. It's not a contradiction, it is simply a non-issue.

I have what they call the DR trimmer and the thing is indestructible. I did not get the beaver blade, but I do the sides of a 1000' driveway clearing it back about 15' to 20 ' on a side. The whole area was cut out of a swamp with a thick tangle of brush, vines, and saplings, all of which keep trying to grow back. So the thing has not been babied. However, your description of the unit as being a "field and brush mower" makes me think that you might be talking an even heavier unit. I regularly get a catalog from those people and they have some monsterous units for sale that make my thing look like a toy (mine is 6.5 HP and slightly larger than a push lawnmower). Some of the units they are selling now kind of remind me of a hand propelled bush-hog. Is that the kind of thing you are looking to get? From what I can see, they are about as wide as a garden tractor so they shouldn't be a problem with your bridge width. However, I can't really say anything about how well they will do what you want to do. All I can say is that the people who make the DR equipment, make very heavy-duty, reliable, long-lasting pieces of equipment and I can't say enough about their quality.

We went on a self-conducted wilderness moose hunt in the Northern Ontario province in Canada. Trying to get deep into an area that was absolutely remote posed some of the same problems you are asking about. This was not exactly winter, but it sure got plenty cold (29 degrees complete with a skim of ice on one of the rivers) and all that was between us and that weather at night was the walls of a tent, and a sleeping bag. We never did feel a bit of discomfort. The discussion here of modes of transport brought up thoughts of another method that may work out for you on certain kinds of hunts. We used the available waterways to get us back into places where no one goes, and the canoes carried all the gear we wanted to transport. We were required by law to use an outfitter so we rented a place at his camp and then immediately went off to do our own thing, miles away. We drove for a few hours on some gosh-awful dirt roads, and then launched a small motorboat pulling two canoes (there were 4 of us). We went to the end of one lake and then a 150 yard portage into another lake and then went to the other end of that one. By the time we were done, there was not a single sign or sound of any people or civilization. We had almost a year to plan this hunt and everything went great. No canned goods, everything was dried food. Also, the walleyes were very cooperative. Everything went off without a hitch including getting a small bull. So if you can arrange your hunt along any sort of waterway (lakes, rivers, large creeks, etc.), there is nothing better than using a small boat or canoe to haul whatever you need. Cold weather gear is so much better today than it was back in '86. So survival in super-cold situations should be no problem with enough careful planning and attention to detail.

Well, you did a heck of a job. Actually, considering that every stick of wood that's in our dinky cabin had to be taken in on an ATV, up an ugly steep hill for almost a mile, I guess I can't complain about how small it is .... lol. It is kind of a glorified tent. We built in some bunk beds, a table, propane stove, propane lights, kerosene heater and a dry-sink. We even had a battery-powered TV up there. Coldest temperature that I can recall staying up there in was 4 degrees below zero. Never did get cold. I even insulated the thing with styrofoam. It was a fun project.

Ha-ha ... this thread puts me in mind with my first deer hunting season (gun) when I spent 2 days on the hill in just a self-constructed enclosed lean-to. We did have snow that week too. No sleeping bag, just a lot of blankets. It was quite an experience. That was my first (and last) attempt to cook and eat a squirrel on a spit over a campfire. I actually survived it all quite comfortably. But then, I was a lot younger then too ..... lol. I have since taken quite a few winter excusions with a tent, but not the "back-pack" kind that I think you are thinking about doing. So I have been able to take the best equipment for creature comforts, and have been able to drag along whatever I thought I needed because the truck was not very far away. I never felt in any kind of danger, although I suppose that there is always possibilities of going ill-prepared and running into some difficulties with hypothermia, pneumonia, and such. I'll bet there are books on winter camping/hunting that would give you some good tips and maybe even some kind of check-list to make sure you are properly equipped.

Sorry for the Bubba comment. There never is any excuse for comparing anyone to Bubba. That is way over the line even as a joke .....

Nice looking camp. Ours is considerably smaller and a bit more stripped down .... lol. But it is the better part of a mile from the house and pretty desolate.

Yeah maybe ..... but probably not.

Nasty attack right out of the blue .... lol. Thanks a lot .... Don't understand it, but thanks anyway .... lol. Speaking of dual identities, maybe Bubba and Paula are the same people .....lol. Both kind of like sniping just for the sake of sniping ....

Ha! Do I have a choice? I can't vote for Obama. What the heck, I'm not a socialist. I am not enthusiastic about Romney, but the choice is clear enough.

I think there are a pretty good sized percentage of the hunters that are like the guys you are describing. I'm not sure how things are where you hunt, but in our area, you can see it in the parking lots that thin out early on opening day, and never do fill up again for the rest of the season like they used to a few decades ago. The number of hunters that you see in the woods drop off to near nothing after the opening weekend. Even thanksgiving day is only a shadow of what it used to be a bunch of years back. All that tells me that the bulk of the hunters are half-day hunters or at best they are 1 or 2 day hunters. I have heard it from a lot of people .... "Oh yeah, I do a little hunting". I'm thinking that if you were to remove the casual hunters from our ranks, we wouldn't have enough numbers for anyone to pay attention to. I further believe that these are the guys that will be deserting the sport in the next decade or so. We sit here thinking that our fanatical views on hunting and how it fits into our lives is the way most hunters think. I think that's not true. So, when thinking about this question of "why do we hunt", I can't help but wonder why these "casual" hunters hunt. I also wonder just how long they will continue to hunt.

It is an interesting activity. To leave a pefectly equipped house with all your comforts and amenities just to go outdoors and become bug-food, doesn't really seem reasonable. Sitting around a campfire that produces smoke that seems to follow you around no matter which side of the fire you are sitting at doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. And yet there we are face burning/ back freezing in the early hours of the morning, sipping on a cup of coffee, staring into a campfire waiting for everyone else to get up. Kind of weird isn't it. And yet, I do thoroughly enjoy these trips outdoors. I don't get it really. It makes no sense to me, but there must be some kind of need for that close connection with nature where all your senses can be bombarded with the experience of living outdoors. It really does seem like an activity of rejuvenation and escape. It also can be a small celebration of independence and self-reliance. And if the right spot is chosen, it can be an escape from the noise and intrusion of people. We keep our camping trips fairly basic. Yes, we do have a pretty fancy tent and some high-tech sleeping bags, etc., but pretty much we have not really gotten into the motor-home style camping yet where we bring "home" with us. That's a conscious decision, and an attempt to keep camping as close to a simple age-old family tradition as possible. The fact is that a lot of the places where we camp can't even be driven to with any kind of motor home. We do a lot of camping up on the hill on our own land. In fact some of the places are exactly the same spots that my brother and I used to camp at when I was about 11 years old (more than 50 years ago....lol). Back then things were really primitive with handmade lean-tos and a few blankets instead of sleeping bags. Great memories and a camping style that promotes those memories. It's all good.

Lol ..... That pretty well sums up where I am as far as being ready for bow season. No, I don't have a boat, but I sure do have a whole lot of "summery" type things that I'm still into. I have had the bow out on a fairly regular fashion. And I do have critter-cams out, but not all of those are aimed at just deer. As usual, some of my summer activities involve hikes up on the hill, so I guess simply by osmosis, I am soaking up a bit of early scouting here and there. But as far as getting stands prepped and checking out hunting equipment, it just ain't happening yet. Life is chucked full of too many things to allow me to get too far ahead .... lol.

Sure enough, that's all part of it. That's why I carry a bow or a gun instead of a camera. Actually the moral superiority thing of evolving out of those primal instincts is exactly the attitude that anti-hunter groups use to condemn hunting. They too claim an evolution that denies the basic nature of where we all came from. For that reason, they see no justification for taking the lives of animals.

I know we have had a few threads about why we hunt, but the same kind of question occurred to me the other day regarding camping. I see all the different kinds of camping that people engage in, so it would stand to reason that there are a lot of different things that people expect to get out of their camping activities. So, just exactly why do you all go camping and how would you define your "style" of camping?

You can rationalize all day long, but the plain fact is that those who call for AR and then go out and shoot the nearest 1.5 year old (and apparently there are a heck of a lot of them) are simply not abiding by the principles of AR or any of the supposed benefits that AR has for the herd. In other words, their words aren't worth the time it takes to listen to them. That kind of "support" is a very hollow and meaningless gesture and perhaps is more worthless than no feigned support at all.

I'm not sure it is always the clicking sound that gets their attention. I am thinking it is more having to do with scent and perhaps sight of the camera. Here's the reason I say that. Pictures like the one above show the deer looking directly at the camera. That would have to be some pretty darn fast reaction time. To me, it looks like the camera has already gotten the deer's attention long before the camera does anything.

As proof of what is said above, note the picture provided that shows you would have to boot them in the butt to get them moving. And then I wonder if they would move even then.

Not if they walk out the door and shoot a spike or 4-point buck. That is just a case of "do as I say, not as I do". That's not support, that's simply being dishonest..