Doc

So now you not only have to determine it's a buck, but you have to be able to determine it is a specific kind of buck, and you do not dare use the capability of your rifle because you might mis-interpret a single deciding tine as being on the near antler when it really is on the antler behind, and you will not be able to utilize some portion of the legal shooting hours because of the lighting, And heaven help you if he shows up with a light fog that obscures the fine detail of antler tines. Of course we all know that you always get lots of time to perform all this analysis. Let's face it, at some point these laws become simply a BS feature of harrassment. Wait until somebody sets us up with antler width requirements. That is commonly considered to be the best AR for keeping harvests out of the 1.5 year age group. Then we will have to whistle at the deer to get him to turn his head toward us for spread estimation. Don't laugh, I have heard it suggested. I will guarantee that some will definitely make a legitimate mistake in what they think they are seeing. A side view is just a tangle of tines unless you are on top of the deer. I myself have seen many deer where I have tried to count points and couldn't, simply because of the angle, and I'm sure you have too. I know we all think we are infallible, and cannot even imagine how you might mis-interpret an antler count, but personally I see it as a whole lot tougher than is being let on. The more difficult you make the laws, the more likely that real honest mistakes will happen. And every change in the laws that I see these days increases the complexity of performing what was once a fairly simple recreational activity. But I will say one thing, if you make buck harvests complicated and difficult enough, you definitely will get older bucks. They'll live a lot longer because no one will dare pull the trigger ..... lol. Maybe that's how AR really works.

Now that's something I would definitely watch. The only one that I have ever seen put on a regular TV hunting show that was strictly for fun and grins was Jim Shocky with his father. Actually I think I have seen him do that on two shows. It was really funny. It shows that somebody on his crew knows enough to mix it up a bit once in a while.

Personally, I like to let them age until there is a huge sway in their back. In fact if it sways enough for his belly to drag the ground a bit, so much the better. Also, if he is stumbling from frailness and has a definite arthritic limp, so much the better. Also I like to see a slight sunken-in look around the lips indicating no teeth. No, I think it is a bit too soon to be taking that youngster.

I am still a believer in those rubber cat-whiskers. I've tried a few of the newer ones, and on my bow nothing else does as good a job of quieting thing down.

That was it. It was up in Gulick .... pretty close to the town border.

Yes, there are definitely special tricks to hunting public land. The one thing that I and the deer have found out is that there are places that hunters simply are not willing to go into. Very often, they get out of their cars and immediately walk right by some of the hottest deer areas on the property. Multi-flora rose can be your friend if you know how to use it.....lol. Another thing I have found is that hunters are like cattle. They all follow the same path into the woods for quite a distance. The deer figure this out too. Hunter patterns are key to figuring out escape routes and timing. So while things on public lands can be a real pain, after a certain amount of time coexisting with the interruptions and hub-bub, you start to figure out certain things about each parcel, and sooner or later, it all starts coming together. Not many people have the patience to work it all out. The comments about the lack of attending deer camp ...... all true.

Also, remember that allergic reactions to poison ivy can change with age. When I was a youngster, I used to walk through it with shorts on and never got even one itch. Then as I got older, I would get a few little blisters that would last a day or so and then go away. Well, this year I found out that thedamn stuff can get in your blood and and start a general over-all rash that marches across the body. Not a nice thing .... and I used to boast that I couldn't get it ..... WRONG!

I'm not a big proponent of aging. I know that's what the butchers do in slaughter houses, but there are two at work for them. They have extremely accurate and constant storage conditions, and second they know what they're doing. Not only that, but any beef that I have seen aging didn't have any hide on them. I really don't think that storing a deer for a week with that rank tallow laying up against the skin does anything wonderful for the flavor of the meat. I generally have them critters in packages and in the freezer before I go to bed the night that I get them. I'll be honest with you, I have never had any better venison including that that was supposedly aged. In fact some of foulest, nastiest tasting, deer meat I have ever tried to swallow was somebody's home version of aging for a week. It used to be a very common practice and I remember you would always see these deer hanging in people's front yards, first with the sun beating on them and then frozen stiff each night. Yuck! Just hack it up and freeze it ..... you'll never be able to tell the difference anyway.

Liquid manure ...... I always get a gag-reflex when ever I drive by a freshly spread feld with that stuff on it. That is the sourist, most focused, stink that ranks right up there with sticking your nose in a decomposing deer carcass (not that I have ever tried that....lol). I always wonder what must it be like be like to be a down-wind neighbor right next to one of those "treated" fields. I remember once seeing a clothesline full of laundry out in the yard while that stuff was being spread. I'm sure somebody was getting some funny looks when people were trying to talk to them. Back in the days when manure was just hand pitched out of the barn and into the spreader and wasn't hanging around fermenting, it wasn't too bad. In fact, it smelled kind of farmy and ok. But this putrid stuff they are spreading is enough to gag a maggot off a gut-cart. In fact, speaking of maggots, it was just a couple of years ago that a farmer over in Honeoye had a bit of a problem with fly infestation because of the brew he was spreading on his fields. Neighbors all around his farm were being swarmed by flies..... nice!

Generally speaking, I agree that we do have some excellent opportunities, especially with all the state land that is available. On the other hand, I do get a little different perspective because I have been bow hunting for 47 seasons now and about 52 gun seasons, and almost all the hunting has been generally in the same general area and most of it even on the same property. The state land that I am hunting is the same that I hiked and hunted when I was a kid. In fact I hung out on that state land before it was state land. So I have had a pretty close ability to watch exact changes over a lot of years. Much of the private lands that I used to hunt have been locked up or built up. One observation that I have made is that the parcel of public land that I hunt was always busy and crowded during gun seasons. In fact much, much more so back 40 and 50 years ago. There were so many hunters that you could track the progress of groups of deer as they ran across the hill simply by the gunshots. Not so much any more. It has become a very quiet place with the possible exception of opening day morning. Bow hunting on the other hand is exactly the opposite. What used to have the atmosphere of a semi-wilderness hunt today is teaming with bowhunters, small game hunters, mountain bikers, and hikers, and the occasional illegal vehicle. Bowhunting has taken on a huge increase in activity since the advent of compounds, and bowhunter density has become quite heavy. The challenges of the non-hunting uses of state land have really made it difficult to find diurnal, patternable deer. It has taken special adaptations to stay effective and successful, but it still can be done.However, these kinds of changes have made people look down on state land to the point where a lot of hunters won't even consider public lands for bowhunting. A different thing has happened with public land gun hunting. The exaggerations of safety problems on public land gun hunting have been propagated to the point that hunters are convinced that hunting state land is a death sentence. Also these people are convinced that there are no deer there. They've all been "cleaned out" is the popular saying that you often hear. Both of these notions are false, but that cannot stop the popular mythology from spreading and even growing. Whenever I confess to hunting state land, I always get that sympathetic look, and then an expression of amazement that I am still alive. In a way that is not all that bad, but people are staying away from a very good source of hunting land options. No you won't find highly managed deer there ... no food plots .... no high fences .... not even real managed harvest selections. You will find occasional excesses of hunters, and the deer are a bit more careful about where they go and when. But for those that want to take the time to learn it all, and learn the effects of human invasions into whitetail habitat, there can be some fantastic hunting. But yes, you are absolutely correct. There are some excellent public land opportunities available here in this state that probably surpass an awful lot of other states. The problem is that it has all received very bad press and hunters seems to be swallowing every bit of it and avoiding these lands like they don't even exist. And so, perception becomes reality. For many budding hunters who are complaining about lack of places to hunt, these lands are automatically ruled out. Perhaps many disappearing hunters are leaving because of this. It's too bad, but you can provide all this land but if hunters are determined to believe that they are dangerous and empty of deer, then it might as well not even be there.

Ha-ha ... probably not the best analogy in the world. I'm not sure mankind would survive ... lol.

Yeah, you are talking about the attraction on magazine display cases. I subscribe to all my magazines and no matter what they put on the cover, I subscribe for the content not the cover. But I do understand that they have to consider the magazine rack browser that let's the cover determine their purchase. But you know, even that kind of buyer would eventually get over-saturated with the same kinds of pictures on every hunting mag. But like videos and TV shows and anything of that nature, creativity and imagination are not really their strong suit. So you get what you should expect. Over ... and over .... and over .... and over.

I often wonder, now that rifles are being used almost everywhere, just how easy it would be at long distances to look at a buck's rack at a couple hundred yards and get the two different antlers mixed together thinking that one of the tines on the far side was really on the near side. You know what I mean? There's a lot of times in the various lighting conditions and all where a broadside rack might fool you into thinking that there is an adequate number of tines on one of the antlers. It sure could cause a nasty situation if you walked up to your buck and had a big surprise waiting for you. Kind of nice how they keep adding new laws giving you a much better chance of being made into criminal without any evil intentions what-so-ever. You think the CO will cut you a break because you made a mistake? I guess you can avoid that situation by only shooting the ones that are 30 or 50 yards away, or maybe just shoot the wobbly old sway-back, toothless bucks .... lol.

So does late frosts effect acorns at all?

Lol .... It really is fun watching these threads evolve. Sometimes it doesn't really take all that long before they become something that leaves you wondering what the original topic was. This is one of those. That's ok. I guess once everyone has said everything regarding the original topic, it probably is a good thing that people move on to other things.

Mike, I hate to burst your narrow view of the bowhunting world, but you would be surprised how many bowhunters are also gun hunters. We are hardly looking down our noses at ourselves. .... lol. Also, if you are not a fan of people expressing their opinions, I would suggest that hanging out on an internet forum may not be the happiest use of your time. I also think that you suffer from a run-away imagination if you are hearing "an elitist attitude that only bowhunters are real hunters that should get more time in the woods and unlimited tags". Where do you people get these things? Look, you just don't like bowhunters, you don't have to make things up about that. That attitude has been around ever since the first bowseason and occasionally along comes a few that seem to have that same affliction.

Absolutely my favorite magazine. Would you believe that I subscribed to that magazine when I was about 12 or 13. I never had much, but always managed to scrape together enough berry picking and combine bagging money to be sure to make that subscription money to go along with another dozen traps .... lol. The covers are great but the articles are fantastic!

I don't understand the question. If you shoot an illegal buck and get caught, I assume you get a ticket and a healthy fine. And I don't think it is anywhere near 1/2 the state that has ARs.

Ha-ha .... I guess Mikey must have got to me. I hear that kind of crap all too often. It does get tiresome.

Interesting subject. I am assuming that you are not choosing your hunts based on random selection of a stand. You must have had some reason for choosing each of the many stands in the first place. Now you need a set of reasons for using them. When certain conditions or times of the season come about, there ought to be a few real good reasons to choose where you are going to go. In-season scouting should tell you which one has the better opportunity of paying off. There is no reason for extending more time spent in a stand that simply isn't paying off. That's simply wasting time. I can't think of one reason why a limitation of options would be a good thing. If you have the stands and some good reasons for their placement ....why not? By the way, be careful of using trail cams near your stands. These critters are fully aware of them and I believe that they do alter patterns, especially with the more mature deer.

Good one Mikey. Keep that old "gun hunters hate bowhunters" thing going. There is a lot more of that going on than even you realize, and I'm glad you are posting to advertise that mindset. People should understand that there are some of you guys that love to take PETA's work and continue it where they leave off when it comes to bowhunters. Your doing a fine job.

Some of us see that as an advantage, not a disadvantage. Also, I know quite a few guys these days who are opting for the muzzle loader over the shotgun because of range and accuracy.

That does seem like an odd thing to do, purposely adding guns into a bow season. kind of like a slap in the face to bowhunters, for no other purpose that slapping them in the face. There is no need to have them both running concurrent. Furthermore their choice of running the two seasons concurrently automatically makes a huge number of potential mentors have to choose between the two events. I'm sure that this will have some potential mentors skipping the youth event. Was it necessary to force that choice on mentors? ..... absolutely not. It really makes me wonder about the value of "fooling" kids about what hunting really is. If they are sensitive to cold weather, or need to experience gun hunting in conditions that don't replicate real gun hunting conditions, then what the heck is really being accomplished? Are we just trying to temporarily fool them and set them up for quitting later when they do have to hunt within a real gun season? Also, I have to say that if you want kids to see deer and get a shot, there is absolutely no better time of the year than opening day for that. The pressure of the orange army keeps them moving on that day. There is also another intangible at work during regular season as the kids are also exposed to the comraderie of hunting with cousins, aunts, uncles, grand parents as well as their parents and friends. Also, in some cases there is the added benefit of camp-life. All of these things are missing during some trumped up special season that is held apart from the rest of the world. It is hard to know what is in the mind of a parent or other mentor who is not carrying on the tradition of introducing children to hunting as a natural part of life. You sure can't detect that attitude of selfishness by looking at them or even talking with them. But it has to be admitted that the job is not getting done or we wouldn't even be talking about special seasons. We can only guess at the motivation and I would maintain that selfishness has to be looked at as one of the possible motives for people dropping the ball. And once again, I am going to ask that question that never seems to get answered here: If we can't get parents and other mentors to introduce kids to hunting within the season, where does everyone expect these mentors to be coming from? Let me repeat that .... where does everyone expect these mentors to be coming from? It's not happening now in season. Why does anyone think it will be happening during some special season. And do we make that situation better by making potential mentors choose between bow season and a special youth season? I think not. But it does make us all feel good, doesn't it ..... lol.

Lol ... Nothing is ever simple when it comes to hunters.

It's getting so that I don't even look at the covers anymore. When the magazines come I simply look to see which one it is and then open it up and start reading. They could put a picture of a horse on the cover and I probably wouldn't even notice. Yeah, I got sick of that nonsense a long time ago, and I'm not really all that impressed anymore.