Doc

I have not often gotten repeat buck pictures at one location. In fact I can't remember even one. I don't know if they are less patternable, or whether they are sensitive to sights and sounds of the cameras of what. I have no problem with repeats on doe and fawns even with my one whiteflash camera. They seem to have accepted that flash, and keep coming back.

As far as how long a cam should live in one spot, it all depends on a lot of things for me. I have different kinds of cam locations. Some are simply investigative surveillance. Those are places where I have noticed an awful lot of occasions where I have spooked deer from an area but there doesn't seem to be any trails or other visible sign. I move cameras around frequently in those areas just to see if there is any regular movement through the area and to determine if there is any kind of pattern. Generally a week is plenty to find out what I want to find out. A lot of these kinds of set-ups have provided some good surprises. I have other areas where trails are obvious and I want to see what kinds of deer are using the trail and at what times of day. These are also places related to stand areas of the past. Those cameras can stay in there for months. Then there are the traditional rut activity areas where there are annual rubs and scrapes that open up just about every year in the same places. Those cameras live there for several weeks during the early stages of rut. I have found that often scrapes are re-opened even though the original buck has been long-gone. This year I have had a Cuddeback on permanent location down in the thicket in front of the house, throughout the summer getting some fawn pictures. That area has turned out to be basically a nursery for several does and their fawns. There's no hunting purposes for that camera, and it simply is for spying on the little critters and other animals that frequent the area (Coons, foxes, etc.). So I'm thinking that the duration of the set-up has to be tied to the specific purpose of the camera location.

I have no clue what the situation is in area 4S, but potential scenarios such as what you are describing is the chief reason that I am against universal statewide ARs. I don't think that I will ever see negative effects of AR where I hunt, but for those that do have population/habitat/climate problems and super-low or no antlerless permits, I do see situations where hunters would simply drop out of deer hunting, and logically so. There is no point to spending hard earned cash on a license only to be effectively told that you are very likely not going to be able to legally shoot anything. ARs that are placed on an area simply to satisfy some general rule of management without an ounce of verification that they are suitable for that area seems to me quick way to dump yet another bunch of hunters. The point is that there has to be some study and reasoned assessment of how ARs will impact the hunting and hunters in each WMU. In other words, a bit of science applied rather than broad-brushed, arbitrary implementation based on a one-size-fits-all mentality). I know everyone looks for the simple answers, but beware of unintended consequences.

I see hunting as a response to our primal need to fulfill an instinctive, genetically based, predatory, human make-up. Of course we try to civilize it by calling it a hobby or a sport, but I have always felt there was far more than simply that. Something initially brought me to these kinds of activities of hunting, fishing and trapping. I don't think it was merely a search for something to do. I'm not sure I completely understand it all, but I think the real motivation is buried in psyche and is a result of a lot of passed-down DNA. There is also some aspect of cultural, historical, linkage going on along with some kind of element of living our place in nature. Most of that crap is going on sub-consciously, but I do occasionally find myself thinking about the historical and cultural relevance of hunting as well as the fact that I am part of nature and not simply some bystander or passive observer. Let's face it, we didn't just wake up one day and decide that we wanted to go out and kill something. There is a whole lot more to it than that. We can dress it all up and call it a sport or pass-time, but the roots of the activity are much deeper than that.

If the evidence were clear that they had been locked up for a long time, and there appeared to be no way that they could ever free themselves, I think it begins to be more of a mercy killing than any kind of sporting activity. As far as diving into the middle of the battle and trying to do something up close and personal, that just ain't going to happen. Depending on where this scene was taking place, summoning some official assistance probably would not be practical even with a cell-phone. Ever stand in the middle of the woods and try to describe where you are to some stranger over the phone? ..... lol. It would pose quite a dilemma, and I really don't have an answer as to what I would do. It certainly would be a shame just to walk away from the situation leaving them to die a slow and lingering death. But depending on the actual tag situation, your choices might be very limited.

I'll be honest, I would be really nervous about transporting an illegal deer tagged only with my wife's tag even given the possibility of getting away with it. If I felt that confident, I wouldn't even bother with the tag at all. And then there is the inconvenience of having a buck that you don't dare tell anyone about ..... lol. No, seriously, I understand that anyone bent on pulling off an illegal act can pretty much figure a way around it. The DEC is not adequately staffed to be much more than a very remote threat to such things. However, we cannot design our game management rules and regulations around those possibilities. If we were to do that, then we might as well just eliminate all rules and regulations because they all can be gotten around by a determined lawbreaker.

I'm going to hold off any purchases until I see more positive sign that it is all a done-deal. These characters have a pretty crappy track record on this issue, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if it doesn't get screwed up again....lol.

Not to get too far afield with this part of the discussion, but regarding illegal activities in hunting, one thing to keep in mind is that the guy who slaps grandma's buck tag on his extra buck still has to get it out of the woods, onto his car and home without someone asking why he doesn't look like an 81 year old lady. Odds are probably in his favor that he can pull it off given the scarceness of law enforcement. But the important thing that one has to remember that the guy probably doesn't look a lot like his wife, grandmother, or grandfather, so that tag really isn't all that much of a protection against arrest. If he gets caught, he still would likely be asked to show identity. If he doesn't get caught, he doesn't need the license.

There are plenty of ways to justify hunting if it becomes important to you to do that. I have seen the results of over-population among deer, and believe me it wasn't a pretty sight. I have heard the death squeal of a rabbit that someone already mentioned. It's a pretty hideous sound as an owl or some other predator rips chunks of meat out of the critter. I have seen the results of a deer kill after dogs had run it to ground over a long distance, weakening it a bite at a time until it fell from blood loss. I would imagine that coyotes operate in the same way. I have put down a coon suffering from distemper, and a fox suffering from an extreme case of mange. These are all very agonizing ways to die and usually are quite slow to provide relief from a suffering death. All these things remind me that it truly is the lucky critter that dies by my bullet. Mother Nature's ways of disposing of the critters is not a very kind or gentle way. I suspect that none of them die peacefully in their bed from old age. Disney painted a pretty tranquil and innocent picture of the lives of animals living merrily in the wild, but that was pure fantasy as it was intended to be. The realities are much more harsh ..... everytime. Whenever you get "hunter's remorse", just think about the alternate ways that your prey has of dying. That might help with any guilt feelings you might have. Also when talking about the ethics and morality of hunting, I agree that you always should make every effort to provide as humane a death as possible. I think it is also important to use the animal in whatever way is practical when there is a practical use for it. But I don't rate any animal as unhuntable simply because I can't eat it. If I can eat it, that's a bonus. What I don't do is to spend a lot of time anguishing over the fact that hunting usually means death as an end product. Hunting and the results of hunting simply inserts me into the natural cycle of life and death in the wild that is part of existance. And I see myself as one of the positive forces in that cycle.

Yes, there will always be the lawbreakers who will figure out ways to thwart just about anything you try to do. I suppose the same sort of lawbreaking would occur with ARs. That basically is an enforcement problem. Sure, I know people that do that or at least that I suspect are doing that. It was real popular back when you needed multiple people on party permits. It's amazing how many people were into hunting then that could hardly pick up a gun .... lol. But I would guess that regulations have to be created with the legal hunters in mind which I still believe are in the vast majority. And the ECOs will still be charged with upholding the law as with every other law on the books.

Well, here's the problem .... it is really a bit of a cop-out to say that you can only speak for yourself and those around you, and then in the next paragraph talk so definitively about how "either parents or kids just lack the desire". The fact is that we can speak for and about hunters other than ourselves when the results are so obvious. I don't need a poll to tell me that parents, friends and organizations are dropping the ball when it comes to getting their kids into the field for hunting. If that were'nt obviously happening, we would not be having this conversation.The fact is that parents and/or kids do seem to lack the desire and interest. Hence the declining new enrollment in hunter ranks. Will special youth seasons impact that situation? Nobody has yet explained how, since the same opportunities afforded by a special season are available right now in a much more suitable time of the hunting year. And that is where my question about the source of these mentors comes from. If we can't answer that question, then it tells me we have the wrong solution. So that is a question that can't just be sloughed over with a simple, "I don't know". Now here's the problem I have with special youth seasons. It seems to me that you are treating the symptoms rather than the actual problem. And such action merely is designed to make people feel like they have done something useful which detracts from efforts spent on thinking of real solutions. Rather than letting people off the hook for coming up with well thought out solutions, I would rather see time and effort invested in working on the problem of parents and other hunters dropping the ball. I would like to see people take all that passion and energy and point it toward programs in the schools that convert child disinterest into a real desire to participate. Here is a place where the DEC could have some real impact. I would like to see programs that promote families participating in outdoor activities that foster an interest in nature and the human activities that surround it. A state sponsored PR activity comes to mind. I want to see fish & game clubs encouraged to work with groups of youths to become some of those missing mentors that I have been talking about. If you have the mentors, you don't need the special seasons. Archers have been moving in the right directions. NYB with their youth hunts that they sponsor and conduct. We have a huge program called National Archery in the Schools Program which is designed to promote the use of bows and arrows in competitive activities. You can bet that that program has a huge spin-off result in bowhunting among youths. These are real programs and activities that have real results. They are things that restore the "cool factor" to outdoor activities. They're not things that people just toss out there and hope that they might work. I don't like these things that simply put a coating over a problem symptom and never do address the actual problem. These are usually the kinds of things where people walk away all puffed up, wiping their hands and declaring, "problem solved!" And that's what I sense with the people surrounding this special youth season.

Patience! We'll get there. Isn't it funny though that what they are after now (entire county) is exactly the same bill that sat on the governors desk the first time through when they all went into a panic and requested the governor to veto it. The language that would allow rifles in all of the county is what sent them all into a tizzy, and now that is exactly the resolution that has been sent up and the most likely to pass....lol. When was that? .... 3 years ago? We could have already had a couple seasons with a rifle by now.

When it comes to such things as hunting coyotes, you have to remember that the coyote basically is at the top of his food chain in NYS. The only critter that is a predator of coyotes is humans. Other than hunters and disease, there is no other population check. However, all that aside, it may be a mistake to consider hunting as having to fulfill some lofty goal in the greater scheme of things. I don't really justify my hunting in terms of some rigid code of morality. I don't demand that everything I kill has to wind up on my table. Shooting rats at the dump is not a food gathering exercise. I have no craving for eating crows, or woodchucks or a 40 pound black-meated, scungey carp. And yet I do hunt all those critters. I didn't run a trapline because I had a hankering to munch down a skunk tenderloin or a rack of fox spare-ribs. So, there is nothing wrong with trying to keep some moral code involved in your hunting to a certain extent. But there also is nothing wrong with acknowledging that modern day humans are descended from predatory ancestors. We have a genetic pre-disposition to hunt, and it's not always about meat or fulfilling some function within the eco-system. Some people might cringe at the semi-evil looking grin on my face as I tighten the squeeze on the trigger with a stinky old woodchuck in my crosshairs. But believe me it really doesn't make me a bad person.....lol.

That is still an excellent point. You want self-regulating restraint on buck harvests? ...... Just make sure that the hunter understands that if he chooses to take a runt, that is a single, unreversible choice. How many times have I heard it said, "The first one is whatever it is and then I begin to "trophy hunt"? More times than I can count. That attitude would change real quick if there were no 2nd chances. One buck per season regardless of weapon ..... just one. Sounds simple to me.

Since we all have computers and access to the internet, I really don't think there is anyone on this forum that is being faced with any of those choices .... fortunately.

Your indignation is noted .... lol. However, I would say that to any rule, there may be an exception, but let's face it, there has to be some truth to the thought that the large percentage of the fathers do not take their kids out during regular season and perhaps the motives for that have been accurately figured out. I keep coming back to this same unanswered question, "where are all these mentors going to be coming from for the special season if we can't even get people to take kids out during regular season". Can anyone answer that simple question? Is there something about a special youth season that's going to force parents, friends and neighbors to do the responsible thing? I don't think so. Could it be that many hope that someone will take their kids out hunting if a special season is formed, and eliminate the need for them to have to be burdened during their own prized hunting hours. I mean, to listen to all the people climbing aboard the "special season" bandwagon, one has to wonder why we have a youth recruitment problem now. If a significant number of the people calling for a youth hunt would simply take a kid out during regular season, I would guess that there would be no problem (hence no need for the special season) .... right? The fact that it is not happening has to make one suspect the worst in motives and I can't blame anyone for coming to the conclusions that we've seen in this thread. Is all the noise about special youth seasons just a diversion to cover the fact that we are not doing our part and really don't intend to?

Yeah really, there should be no one that is forced to live off the land. We do have systems on top of systems to handle dire emergency survival situations. I really do believe (hope) the comment about being willing to break the law was a remark that was blurted out in the heat of the argument without any thought.

New update on the Ontario County rifle bill in the latest issue of New York Outdoor News. Apparently they are going for rifles in the entire County instead of just areas south of routes 5&20. Also it looks like 2013 is the earliest possible effectivity date. Apparently, it has already been put forth as an "county-wide" resolution approved by the Board of Supervisors. What a fiasco!

There is no justifying poaching as far as I am concerned. a possible exception to that is if you are in imminent danger of starvation. But of course if that were the case, the poacher would likely not own a computer or be able to afford an internet account. The appropriate way to handle legal things that you disagree with is to either fight to have the law changed or work to defeat the law from being passed in the first place. Breaking the law is not acceptable. I am hoping the comment was made by mistake and was made strictly for shock value and a rather spur-of-the-moment poor judgement.

Lol .... I guess if you automatically rule out every opinion on this thread that doesn't agree with your thinking, I can see where you might arrive at that opinion. Hey, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but please read and try to understand the opinions of those that maybe don't quite align with your version. Try applying a bit of an open mind and maybe you might actually see where the opposition is coming from instead of trying to define it by decree.

I remember throwing a few spinners in the river a bunch of years (maybe a few decades?) ago while passing through Binghampton. I can't remember where we got access. It was just one of those deals where we saw the water and said let's give it a try. We caught and released bunches of those smallmouths. But none like the one in the picture. however, it sure showed the potential of that stretch of the river. Unfortunately, I never got a chance to get back and explore the river there.

There is one nagging quote from the DEC top biologist Jeremy Hurst. That being that there is no biological reason for ARs. Certainly not a direct quote, but it does capture the essence of the quote. What exactly did he mean if ARs have such a significant effect on the health of the herd? Did he lie? If so, why? He actually described the demands for AR as being a social request from hunters. Again, not a direct quote, but essentially conveys the meaning of what he said. Can anyone straighten me out on what the deal was with those widely publicized quotes?

Well again as I said, I haven't checked the seasons yet, but I assume that opening weekend of turkey season is established by now. And I believe that somewhere I heard a pretty definitive proposed date for the youth deer hunt. The question is, do they coincide or not? if they do, it seems like the youth hunt has purposely been put in one of the most seasonally competitive times of the year when kids that are interested in hunting will be torn in about as many different directions as the DEC can arrange. If they don't, it still is one heck of a busy time for various hunting activities, not to mention that fall fishing is still going great in October.

Is that true? Are they proposing to hold this special youth deer season on the first weekend of fall turkey? I haven't had a chance to check it out yet, but if that is true, you really have to wonder how serious they are about this special season being attended by the kids. I guess there must be some silly reason why they decided to put it in the most competitive time of the year. between a bow season that is happening, and all the different small game hunting opportunities, and now the opening weekend of turkey season ...... could they have picked a more likely time for failure. I mean really, what the heck are they thinking? I have been suspecting that the whole thing is just a silly "feel-good" piece of window-dressing. I guess now if this is true, that kind of is the convincing last straw.

One thing I have noticed a lot of this year are storms where you can have a "gully washer" going on in one spot and a half-mile down the road everything can be bone dry. Some of these things are so isolated, it's no wonder that the weathermen have been so screwed up lately. Quite often, I have watched huge storms on the radar split apart and go both sides of us and not a drop of rain here.