Doc

Come-on ..... I don't want to hear that.

I think you might be surprised just how smart a doe can get if they became the sole target during season. If the population ratio were to reverse and does became as scarce as bucks are today, you might just be surprised how they would adapt super-survival tactics without the defence liabilities of rut that bucks always will have. At any rate, as you pointed out, it is truly all a moot point because does will always enjoy some level of protection.

Now see .... there's what I'm talking about. There's one of them slithering disgusting things that have to crawl around on their belly and hide in the grass and such and the damned thing don't even sound off with a rattle. At least a rattlesnake will occasionally give you fair warning. Granted, you probably are within striking distance by the time you hear the rattle .... lol. Kill them!!!! Kill them all!!!!! Bury them deep then bury the shovel!!! No place poisonous stuff.

I think there are a lot of places that look rather nice as long as I am not actually living there. What the heck, there are a lot of other states that look rather nice, but again I have not experienced actually living there encountering all the day today crap that they have to put up with. Remember that old saying about the grass on the other side of the fence. Some times it actually is and most of the time it isn't.

They better hurry up if it is going to be in effect for this year. It takes me a long time to settle down on things like calibers and makes and models. I usually have to study and research and agonize for months when it comes to these kinds of purchases.....lol.

Don't forget the sharpness of them little snots that the old lady goats hang out with. Those extra eyes and ears seem to be some of the sharpest in the woods. It's usually those little guys that seem to be the ones that wind up doing the foot stomp and staring and doing the "head-bob" trick and then give you the whitetail version of the raspberry.

I think nobody is running yet because there isn't anyplace to run to .... lol. Our biggest problem is that we are trying to change to be like every other country. We keep trying to convert other countries to Democracy, and all that is being accomplished is that they are moving us toward their socialism (and worse). It all relates to the globalization of America in which we are letting foriegn countries influence our values and theories of government. Let's hope those smart sheep can figure a way to get us back to a little bit of nationalism and forsake this damned copy-cat attitude that our leaders have come to embrace.

I know they kill rodents, and supposedly have a place in our eco-system, but if something happened that eliminated all of them, I wouldn't really shed a tear. There are plenty of places where they don't exist, and I haven't heard of any ecological disasters occurring because of that. I don't really need things that hide in the grass and have the capability of killing me. Geesh! I don't even like the non-poisonous ones. Anything that can get up and walk around where you can see them is one thing. But I have no use for things that hide in the grass ...... lol.

I agree, but so far as I read all this stuff, I have yet to see where any of these intrusive processes are doing what they were jammed into law to do. For example, I see nothing that gets at the mental state of permit candidates. Not that I can think of anything that would do that. But every law that has been passed (and there are volumes of them), I have heard no one state which law should have prevented this event. Of the few actual suggestions that I have heard offered here, there are none of them that actually would do what people think they would and none of them would have prevented what happened in Colorado. I'm having a hard time jumping on this new gun-law bandwagon, when no one has anything new to offer. As I said once before, I think we have reached the end of the road in terms of effective, useful legislative solutions. Now all I see is a bunch of re-runs. It's a tough deal, but there is no way I can sign onto this idea of flailing around passing laws that have no true realistic expectations of actually doing anything. We have already had far too much of that.

Yeah, I read that Messenger article, but I know there is a lot of time that can be sucked up in legislature. Last time that part of the process got all plugged up with other matters (budget). Also, we even had the damned bill on the Governors desk with him willing to sign it and it had to be yanked back because of a composition error. So, I am not taking anything for granted .... lol. It's a long process between sending a resolution to Albany until it gets a Governor's signature. When the bill has a governor's signature on it, I will be in the market to buy. That's why I would like to track it on the computer, but I need a bill number. By the way, I am currently thinking of a .270 caliber. Just a little more than a .243 but still not something that will beat the hell out of me. Also, probably a 3-9 variable scope on top. What do you think of the .270?

Sure hunting is "fun and exciting". And that is because I have taken on the challenge to get some of that meat the hard way rather than simply buying it. I will flat out say that if hunting was easy I wouldn't do it. If there was no challenge to hunting, I really would trade in my guns and bows for a good camera or some better hiking equipment or maybe some new bowling equipment .... lol. But anywho, I know from all the discussion about ARs and such that many (most?) members here see hunting as a challenge, and they have a desire to lift that level of challenge pretty high. I kind of agree with that thought .... maybe in different levels or ways, but the challenges of what hunting offers is the very reason I hunt instead of just observe. Perhaps that is why bowhunting is my first love in hunting. Me against the deer with an awful lot in favor of the deer. That's a challenge. And that's what makes it all worth doing. And based on that, and getting back on topic, I still feel that if you are looking to hunt the most challenging deer in the woods, the old antlered buck may not represent the biggest challenge in the woods (for reasons that I stated above). And if does were all that were legal to shoot, I think I could be very satisfied hunting the old lady-goats. It would take a bit of de-programming to get that antler measure of success out of my head, but I'll bet they would pose a real challenge if their numbers were cut substantially and they became the primary targets as the bucks are today.

Ha-ha ..... Nobody is supposed to be that sure of themselves. And everybody loves to hate those that are. They sure do make great targets for those looking for someone to bash (especially among the anti-gun crowd). he may be awful harsh and abrasive to those that are soft on gun control, but I seldom hear him speak when I come away disagreeing with what he is saying. When I see someone putting themselves "out there" as often as the Nuge does, I guess I will allow a bit for an occasional over-statement. I don't see any other celebrity or public figure speaking positively and publicly about hunting and gun ownership. Even those public figures that are gun owners and hunters generally lack the spine to defend those things in public. So, I tend to cut Nugent a bit more slack than most are willing to. I kind of put myself in his position and realize that it would be pretty hard to be absolutely perfect, especially when there are so many people and organizations out there bent on silencing you.

I probably don't really have to be concerned, however the thought does cross my mind occasionally. Not too many decades ago areas around Naples and Honeoye were known for occasionally coming up with a rattler or two. In fact 50 or 70 years ago there was a character over in Honeoye called Rattlesnake Pete who regularly went out hunting for them with apparently some success (hence the name). However, in the decades that I have been running these Ontario County ridges, I have never had an encounter or heard of any others that have had any sightings. So perhaps they have been systematically eliminated. Also, I heard that if you have black snakes, you are unlikely to have much of a rattlesnake population. We have tons of black snakes. I wouldn't swear to that local myth or fact, but that is a local thought that I grew up with. At any rate, even though this area has been rattlesnake free for decades, I still can't help but wonder everytime I step over a log, or mess around any of the many rock piles that I encounter.

I have never applied for a handgun permit, so please excuse me if this question sounds a little bit ignorant. But, I was wondering if the issuing agencies get into psychological analysis, or any kind of activity to determine your mental state? Obviously if you have a criminal record involving eratic behavior, they may have a chance of somehow finding that out prior to a permit being issued. But barring any kind of such record, do they do anything at all to discover psychological problems including outright insanity? Like I say, I have never had occasion to want a handgun, so I am completely ignorant of the process other than a comment here and there mentioned through casual conversation. So, since it is primarily in cases of these clearly mentally disturbed perpetrators that all the registration talk is spawned, I was wondering just how effective the licensing process really is in weeding out insane gun buyers. Also, are there any credible guesstimates as to how many criminals (insane or otherwise) that the registration and permitting system has turned back from a gun purchase? Again, I have no knowledge in that area, so I just figured it was worth a question.

Ha-ha .... I am going to have to resurrect that word. It has a lot of practical use on just about any forum....lol.

I am not saying that things will never change. I'm not even saying that there aren't plenty of signs that things are changing. What I am saying is that when we discuss the greatest nation on the planet, we cannot ignore the evidence where people vote with their feet. Right now, I see more people trying to get in here than those that are trying to get out.

Doesn't matter ..... The remarks and questions still stand.

Speaking of "Gun and hunting laws", has anyone heard of any progress on the deer season rifle bill for Ontario County? Does anyone know the bill number so I can check it out? If that does make it through for this year, I've got a deer rifle to buy. That's a purchase I don't want to rush.

So when did the mass-exodus of U.S. citizens begin? Last I knew, there were still huge numbers of people trying to get in here, but I don't really recall hearing a whole lot about the shrinking U.S. population as they leave this terrible country in decline. I must have missed all that. Yes, we have a whole lot of faults to point at that we are all very familiar with because we live here. One has to wonder what kinds of flaws we might encounter in some of these other "paradise" countries if we actually had to live there for a while.

Scot, you know as well as any of us that there is plenty of "process" in place. There are volumes of laws and procedures already on the books (some of them duplicated many times over), that along with a small handful of meaningful laws place plenty of additional road-blocks and worthless harrassments on law-abiding potential gun owners. In fact the subject of gun ownership may very well be the most wildly regulated activity in our whole system of laws. And yet even with these massive volumes of gun laws, none have stopped these crazy acts from taking place. We love to compose and dump these laws on our citizenry, and yet there is no evidence that any of them or all of them are able to stop crazies from doing what they are going to do. Look, terrorists have made an art-form of snubbing their noses at our gun laws. I think that a certain amount of basic gun laws may actually deter some crimes, but I think we long ago reached the end of the usefulness of that course of action. Today the new laws appear to be more aimed at harrassing guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens than any real constructive attempt to control crime. And you know what? ..... I believe that is exactly the intent. Today, when nobody can think of a useful solution, their frustration makes them start in with the knee-jerk, "there ought to be a law" kind of chanting. So, as I asked once already in a previous reply, specifically what new laws do you support that you believe would have prevented this crime? What new law would have prevented this guy from walking into that theater and opening fire?

No question that access is a biggie, but the problem of recruitment goes a lot deeper than that. We have been undergoing a societal change that works completely in opposition to the growth of hunting. The urbanization of America (the death of farming as a major family entity) is another. Also the "cool factor" has been lost with hunting as we and our off-spring slide deeper into technological recreation and a disdain for what used to be enthusiastically engaged in by a majority of kids years ago. The busy, non-stop, lifestyle of parents has left little time for outdoor recreation. I don't think a lot of us have kept an eye on how society has been changing. It's actually a very heavy impact on things that we have always taken for granted. There also are inroads that the anti-hunting factions have made in general attitudes of kids and adults alike. While we have held our own legally, there are certain attitudes regarding how humans relate to animals that their constant campaign has impacted. The list of reasons for the demise of hunting is a long one as has been shown in previous threads. It could be that hunting, fishing, trapping, and all things outdoors is in a powerful need of some hefty P.R. campaigns. And perhaps even that cannot turn around the image that hunting has among youngsters and adults alike. So yes, hunting access is certainly one of the problems, but I do believe that it sits way down the list of reasons for recruitment failures.

One has to wonder how many of those people in that theater were frustrated out of carrying the means to protect themselves by some of the anti-gun laws that some are so fond of. I suspect that a theater was chosen primarily because it was understood that the liklihood of anyone posing a serious armed threat to his attack was pretty well nil. I'm thinking that the fact that the government has been working diligently to disarm the public is the very reason why a firearms attack is becoming more the tactic of choice. What exactly are the odds these days that any group you intend to terrorize has an armed citizen among them? It certainly does embolden those that wish to do harm filling them with confidence that they can do as they please with absolutely no possibility of resistance.

Well, I did mention that I was talking about most of us. Certainly the down-and-outers who are in situations where they have to rely on wild meat for survival perhaps may not be counted in that. And maybe they would find it useful to take as much challenge out of their hunting as possible. However, I wouldn't doubt that even a certain percentage of those enjoy a challenge involved in hunting. I also allow that there are some who simply enjoy using hunting as an excuse to just sit in the woods, and the gun part of it is simply something to make it all "look" right. I've run into a few that have that as their version of hunting. But yeah, I do believe that most of us engage in hunting because it poses more of a challenge than heading off to the supermarket, and because there is some measure of pride of accomplishment involved when successful.

That is one thing we all seem to occasionally lose sight of here. We are here on this forum because we have a greater-than-average interest in deer hunting. That is why when we try to invent or support various management schemes, we have to realize that we may not be talking for the majority of the hunters. Yes, I know that management decisions are supposed to be for the critters and not the hunters. But I think we all realize the reality that both have to be satisfied because hunters are the most important management tool that the DEC has. Currently, there is no management without hunters.

Inspite of all the meat-hunting talk, I suspect that just about all of us are in the game for some measure of challenge. That's the main reason I go hunting instead of going to the supermarket. And the current measure of hunting challenge/success happens to be antlers. Like it or not, that's what I see and hear when I watch TV and talk to fellow hunters and even here on this forum. But when you think about it, there is nothing inherently more intelligent about an old buck vs. and old doe. The only real additional challenge to a buck relates strictly to their numbers. Because just about everybody buys into the antler thing, the buck are a lot less numerous and that is where the mistaken idea comes from that they are somehow super-smart and elusive. Think about it ..... Even older bucks become fairly stupid when rut rolls around. They are the only ones that run around advertising their patterns and presence with scrapes and rubs. Does don't do that. Does tend to travel in small groups. A pretty smart adaptation that puts a lot of eyes, ears and noses all working for safety. Bucks are the ones that run through the woods bouncing off trees in pursuit of does .... Smart behavior? .... I don't think so. So why is that old buck with big antlers so hard to get? ..... Simple, there just aren't a whole lot of them around. So, if does became the only legal prey around, chances are pretty good that the scarcity factor of the challenge would reverse. At that point, we would be hunting the more challenging gender, the doe. I think you would find deer hunting just got a bit harder with a whole lot more challenge.