Doc

No, I do pretty good on this chunk of land inspite of all the interferences. It's all a case of knowing the land a whole lot better than anyone else. Having hunted on the same parcel for all of my life, I know a lot of the back-door access points to areas that others never dare to enter.... . Those wild rose "man-traps" do have ways in for those that know the area.....lol. I was just commenting on how some studies and articles get written up like they gospel and apply everywhere when in fact there are a lot of areas that have completely different circumstances.

Honestly..... is there really any more beautiful North American bird than a male wood duck? These are some great pictures!

I am completely amazed at how many pages can be develop over nothing ..... lol. But I will say one thing, all this discussion of minutia regarding the legal ins and outs of baiting does bring up a question in my mind that may be of interest to trappers. With many of these same feeding and baiting laws also now applying to bears, I have to wonder about the poor trapper who constructs an old-fashioned dirt-hole set for foxes and stuffs the traditional small chunk of rotting muskrat meat back in the hole. Could this be interpreted as baiting or feeding bears simply because the bait is something that a wandering bear might stop and pick up? I really doubt it ever wouldbe that stringently interpreted but with the rigid thinking that has developed here about the definitions of baiting and feeding, one has to wonder just how vulneralble trappers are now with the wide variety of baits that they have always used. For that matter, anyone who drags a road-killed deer off for coyote hunting or photography purposes ...... Are they guilty of placing a bear bait, or feeding the bears? The farmer totes a dead calf carcass over into the hedgerow ...... same question. Is he guilty of feeding bears or placing a bear bait? Some of these laws are quite interesting when one considers all the gray fuzzy edges that could be used to turn rather innocent activity into a nasty legal violation if some ECO or Judge was to get overly anal about the interpretations.

I have heard this myth before and yet I have (and I'm sure everyone else has too) seen countless pictures in magazines, and footage on TV hunting programs that clearly show huge bucks taking advantage of bait in broad daylight that has been placed for exactly the purpose of drawing them in for easy shots. Actually, it stands to reason doesn't it? These guys don't buy expensive automatic feeders and keep them filled simply because they like the exercise and the drain on their wallets. We have a whole industry built on production of some rather exotic feeders, and the sale of bait products. Feeders/baiting works ..... that's been well demonstrated in a very public way that we all have seen. As a matter of fact, I read an article where the author was bragging about the fact that the sound of the feeder was actually an audible signal to the deer that not only brought the deer to a specific, exact, spot but also at a specific and exact time. The deer were actually conditioned to respond to the sound of the timed feeder going off like Pavlov's dogs. Are we really wanting to be in the business of treating the wild deer that we are hunting like some sort of training and conditioning activity to enhance our hunting opportunities? The question is, "is this really hunting"? I don't consider it any part of what hunting is to me. But I suppose we all have to decide that for ourselves.

Well it is likely that our little chunk of state land is a bit unique in that the mountain bikers have been given permission from the DEC to construct trails, and they have pretty much taken over the whole place with a maze of trails. Hard as it is to believe, these trails also go up the side of the hill and there pretty much is no way of getting even 1/4 mile away from any of these trails. It's amazing, but the law prohibits hunters from cutting even a branch or sapling on state land and yet these people have been given permission to hack these trails throughout this parcel in some cases to the point of digging flatted-out areas along these trails for their convenience. The only place that has escaped this intrusive land modification is the area at the bottom next to the road which is so thick with wild rose that no one has the fortitude to enter these areas to clear anything. The only trail in the bottom-land is a single one that leads straight to the hill where the hardwoods keep things pretty open on the side hill and beyond. That's where other trails begin to branch off and complete the total blanketing of the area with a network of interlocking trails. So now, the area has become a major hiking trail area as well as biking and where the area used to get several months of peace and quiet between hunting seasons, which allowed the deer to establish normal daylight patterns, it is constantly full of people on a year around basis now. So the point of my reply was that while the study that this article was about may be valid for a majority of public land pressures, it is not valid for ALL public land people-patterns or deer reactions to that pressure.

Remember that we are talking about state land. It is illegal to make the modifications that you mentioned. However, there is no doubt that the deer use these impenetrable places that are built out of the man-traps called multi-flora rose when the pressure comes on. And that movement into these places does not always begin with the gun season. Other human activity throughout the year also conditions the older deer to use these areas. And contrary to this article, these spots are directly next to the roads and parking areas not some place deep in the woods.

All of this stuff is just a further display of how we have placed the emphasis of our hunting on hunters competing against hunters instead of simply against the deer. What the heck, we even have devised scoring systems and record books to keep track of who is ahead .... . It's all an ego-thing as hunters attempt to gather the needed admiration of their fellow competitors. It has gotten to the point where many will devise ways of cheating and sidestepping laws and other inconveniences just to prove to the world their worth as a great hunter. It's amazing just how far people will go to try to cement their version of self worth and enhance their view of their importance in the hunting world. Consider the thousands of dollars that some invest in hunting land and habitat improvement. And I do mean thousands. Some have bought huge acreage and have invested the same kind of money that a small-time farmer would put out in ground-working, tilling tractors and implements. Some go a step further and invest in costly fencing. The sky is the limit .... lol. Is it really all that hard to believe that many would dummy up antlers and get involved in illegal and unethical means to reach that goal of needed admiration in the hunting community? It's all a little pathetic, but obvious and undeniable. What a shame that they have not learned the value of treating hunting as a liesurely recreation. But I guess everyone is into hunting for their own reasons and has to do what they think they have to do. By the way, hunting is not the only place where people get carried away in their pursuit of peer approval. Many fishermen have also become involved in all kinds of cheating schemes and law stretching for exactly the same reasons as some hunters. it's all sad, but apparently it is a part of human nature for some.

The article was quite interesting, but as usual, I have my suspicions about trying to draw any useful conclusions using such limited studies. For example, the valley that I hunt in has a very limited amount of flat land near the road. It is all very dense, thorny, wet and almost impossible to hunt. Pretty much, if you are going to hunt that state land, you are going to have to climb a rather long, steep hill. There simply isn't enough huntable flat land to support even a small number of hunters. Also, 51 years of hunting in that same area has revealed that hunters seem to have no problem climbing a very steep and long hill and then continuing for quite a distance beyond the crest of the hill. Not only that but I have seen hunters climb that cardiac killer hill with heavy packs and bulky ladder-stands on their back to points that are well in excess of 1 mile from any road. The word has gotten out about how traveling deep into the woods of a state land parcels is practically guaranteed to put you in the area of big bucks. Everyone has read that and many hunters are reacting to that theory. Well actual on-the-ground observation does not bear that out in my valley. In fact in bow season, hunting areas on top of this hill are congested with other bowhunters, hikers, mountain bikers, and all kinds of people. These guys are not down in the valley next to the roads because that whole area is infested with multi-flora rose, grape vines, areas of standing water and other impenetratable features. They all find it much easier to follow the trail to the base of the hill and follow the mountain bike trails through the open woods to the top. By the way, guess where most of the big-buck sign and rutting activity is ..... lol. Everything is a complete mirror image of what this article concludes. So the point is that a study such as this one may have some relevance somewhere, but to generalize the findings beyond the limited area that they studied, probably is not a useful thing to do.

I am convinced that there are those that join forums just because they provide an opportunity to be rude to other people without any consequences. All forums have them. We are just now going through the stage where they are in the process of taking over the site. It really is quite a common occurrance, and I have to wonder how much this sort of thing may have caused the demise of this forum's predecessor.

Speaking of getting away from the smoke ..... Has anyone figured out what scientific principle is involved with the fact that campfire smoke always blows in your direction no matter how many times you change position?

Now if you don't have faith in that one particular statistic, doesn't that make you kind of look funny at the rest of the management system statistics, procedures and data? I have to wonder just where they are getting all this age info anyway. Nobody ever asked me on my report how old my deer was. Heck, they come up with all kinds of data that is not part of the reporting system. If they have figured out a way of arriving at all this stuff without hunters reporting it, why the heck are harvest reports mandatory. Just run around a couple of processors, check a few dozen deer at each and then expand those findings to the rest of the state. Forget the hunter reports and just pretend that the trumped up stats are all correct.....lol. Actually that ain't so funny. That's kind of a version of what they are doing right now.

Like it or not, I don't really think that NYS has the resources to handle any large-scale re-testing. The way I hear it there is not exactly an over-abundance of instructors now as it is. It's just possible that you would wind up with excessively long waiting lists just to find available courses. How do you suppose that might affect the already shrinking hunter numbers?

How long before large numbers of hunters are going to throw up their hands in disgust and take up a different line of recreation. Frankly, I am getting a bit weary of being taken advantage of and basicly being made the fool by paying more for less. I'm thinking that if this crazy stuff continues year after year, the drain on sportsmen's numbers will continue to accelerate, and then the DEC will experience money problems like they can't even imagine. I also think it's about time some of these reporters did a bit of research to put names to all the financial problems that the DEC is encountering. I really don't believe that all of the blame, (or even a majority of it) resides inside the DEC. I also think it would be interesting to see if the DEC is taking a fair share of the statewide budgetary hits, including past years when they were already taking hits before it became fashionable.

What the heck is the matter with you people? Do any of you ever read the crap that you're typing on here. It seems like the whole damn site is being taken over by pointless flame wars. And it's all over nothing. I've got to say that the view of the personalities that are coming out here are not exactly very flattering. It appears that flame wars are the only benefits that some of you joined for. What's up with that? If you all are trying to prove just how disagreeable your personality is, then by golly you're doing a real bang-up job of it. One forum at a time, the whole site is being taken over by a few people that simply want to see how clever they can be at insulting each other. As I watch former participants becoming silent, I don't think it takes a whole lot of insight to see where this site is heading.

And yet they can afford to send DEC personel all over the state visiting deer processors and taxidermist, writing down the names of successful hunters and then go back to headquarters and input into the computers all that info and then have the computer see what percentage of those hunters actually reported in order to come up with the "reporting rate" which may or may not actually be acurate. I guess I don't understand how that is more efficient than having the whole job done by some software. Actually, the fines for the non-compliance would most likely pay for what ever expenses that are required. After all the tickets don't have to be hand-issued. The fact is that after hunters learn that there is no way of escaping the fines, the reporting rate will quickly approach 100%. Right now the attitude is that there is no enforcement going on so why bother.

Temperatures are getting to the point where I can start dragging the sand-bags, tripod, rifles and all that newly re-loaded ammo outdoors to the shooting bench on my rifle range out back and wake up all the residents of the valley .... lol. I've got a nice new Remington .223 that just simply needs to burn up some ammo. I also have a pretty significant volume of reloaded .22 Hornet ammo that needs testing. It'll be fun trying to put all the bullets in the same hole. So, soon I'll be splitting my time between shooting the bow and shooting the rifles. Life is sweet!

Slowly but surely, it looks like the weather is moving toward a condition where I will soon be able to move my bow practice from the basement, to my outdoor range. I have been shooting at tiny little 3/4" diameter bullseyes on my 15 yard indoor range all winter, and am ready to get outside and step back a ways. That will all be wonderful until the black flies start....lol. Have any of you guys been keeping up a steady program of winter shooting? Maybe some of you are lucky enough to have a club or commercial indoor shooting range nearby for some tournament action. Great way to stay sharp and have some winter fun. I have been shooting just enough to keep the muscles toned and the form in place. But, I am way beyond ready to step outside and get some real practice in.

It's not so easy today to "preserve a tradition". It seems to be a societal goal to actually stamp out traditions and any items of U.S. culture. To most today, tradition is simply another phrase for living in the past or doing things that an enlightened society has evolved away from. I think you can make efforts to slow the demise of hunting traditions, but as long as society has the attitudes that it it does, it certainly is just a matter of time before the hunter numbers simply become too small to be relevant. I've seen it happen in a big way to another of our traditional activities (trapping), and data now suggests that both hunting and fishing licenses are showing significant downward trends. In fact as was already mentioned somewhere on this forum, this idea of shunning outdoor activities goes well beyond hunting, fishing and trapping. I honestly believe that we are the last of the breed as technology and elite and supposedly enlightened attitudes continue to take over the psyche of society. I know that is a real downer of an observation, but those of us who have been around long enough to get the long-term view of trends I would guess would have a hard time seeing it any other way.

Yup ....... guaranteed to get your deer everytime! ...... LOL.

Ok, here is my theory on why the DEC might be against a "1 tag - 1 report" law. And bear in mind that this is only a theory, not supported by anything that the DEC has said or implied. I think they may be a bit scared by the low reporting rate that currently exists and may be fearful that they could find themselves in a position of fining or otherwise punishing more than half the hunter population, which could then lead to a terrible backlash of desertion in the hunter ranks. One thing that kind of supports that theory is the lack of action taken against those that they find non-compliant as they do their "reporting rate" surveys and calculations. Have any of you ever heard of anyone receiving a ticket in the mail for not reporting their harvest? And yet they apparently find enough of them to come up with a reporting rate number that shows that there is significant non-compliance. It's almost as though they really don't want to enforce that law. So a "1 tag - 1 report" mandate would force their hand and perhaps make them enforce something that they are afraid to enforce. Now that's all just a guess, but I'll be darned if I can think of any other logical reasons. In prior posts on the subject, I have shown how such a law that is basically enforced by computer software would actually save money over the labor intensive methods being used today.

The herd in Ontario County seems to be handling the winter quite well from what I've seen. Their biggest problem here seems to be staying out from in front of vehicles.

We have already discussed an excellent way of getting near 100% reporting that involves mandatory reports for every tag issued (successful or not). Apparently the DEC is not really that interested in forcing an improvement of reporting rate since they have publicly ruled that plan out. In terms of publishing hunter names on the internet, I see that as serving no other purpose than supplying a useful resource for harrassment from your local animal rights wackos. However, given the history of anti-gun people supplying pistol owners names on the internet, I'm sure it is just a matter of time before some nutcase applies the Freedom of Information Act to get listings of hunter names to publish on their websites.....lol.

I understand that all of the published stats that the DEC issues all have a pile of formulas behind them and for every question we might have, they could drag out volumes of statistical analysis that we are supposed to merely accept as gospel. However, when you look at the fact that every input involves some estimate, factor, trend analysis, and other such soft data, it is very hard to work up any kind of credible confidence in what comes spewing out the end of the computers. That coupled with the fact that there is never any physical verification of results, and yet those results are built on and added to every subsequent year, kind of makes you think that there has to be a huge opportunity for statistical "creep". And then we look at the randomness of results such as the deer glut of the 90's followed by the admitted over-harvest a few years later, and it becomes obvious that the real management methods are not the statistical models, but merely the wild manipulation of antlerless permits to frantically compensate for what eventually becomes obvious to everybody. It would appear that all this statistical mask is merely a cover story to a much more basic reactive management scheme. If I am wrong about this assessment, it is only because the DEC does a real crappy job of instilling confidence in their super-secret, hokus-pokus, black art, unverified, statistical methods, and do not adequately explain to the public all the apparent mis-steps and tangible evidence that all is not well in the deer management methods.

I'm not completely sure that I really give a damn whether it is a fake or not. I don't know the guy and it wasn't taken anywhere near where I hunt. I guess it's one of those things that I'll let others worry about and figure out ..... lol.

I still have a question about whether an arrow doesn't stuff feathers and crap in a nice little trail through the breast meat. Years ago, I was talking to a guy that quit bowhunting turkeys because of that problem. I guess I can easily imagine that being a problem. Anybody else ever notice that kind of meat damage?