Doc

For bonafide, certified, disabled hunters (registered and documented in any way that makes everyone confortable) that require that level of assistance only ...... I believe you really are starting to get it or at least pieces of it. Man that was a struggle for such a simple concept.

Well now I am really confused. I thought the article was back in the 80's and was about a lady up in the Adirondacks. It was a pretty similar story though. It could be that it was a different situation, but more likely, time has just scrambled up the time and location on me....Lol. Thanks for finding that article.

I am not going to engage in pro crossbow/anti crossbow discussion. We have a jillion pages of that where just about anything that can be said on the subject has been said. It's simple enough to go back and review that whole discussion and perhaps that will answer some of your confusion about one side of the argument or the other. This is a whole different topic about a bill to help disabled hunters participate in the early bow season (or at least some of them). To me it seems like a pretty half-hearted attempt which I would rather see expanded to a point where it is actually effective and meaningful. That is what I have been discussing here and which most likely has run it's course as far as I'm concerned.

No I don't think that the stock is something new, but it sure seems to be drawing some very current attention of the crossbow engineering staffs. They seem to be just now discovering how much mechanism that can be packaged in that space. I sure do feel a lot better now with all your assurances that these advances will be shot down by regulations and laws. I wish we had a little better record of that actually happening in the past. like I say, time will tell.

I've got no idea why I ever even tried something that sounds so gross, but I suppose it isn't much different than eating an egg salad sandwich. Besides I like egs just about anyway they can be fixed. So try it out. You just might like it .................Or maybe it'll make you barf ;D

Now see there you go getting all angry again. A load of crap?? . Well like I said before, for some this law is more about advancing crossbows than trying to do anything substantive to help the disabled. So I guess you know where I stand, and I know where you stand on that issue. I don't really have anything to add.

Hey, maybe yes ... maybe no. It kind of puts me in mind of that full auto crossbow that that guy came up with. There seems to be no end to what they can do now that they have a stock to work off of. At least the crossbow companies will be keeping the watchdogs busy from now on trying to keep up with a whole new platform of technological advances and there will be plenty of work available for the crossbow lobbyists. I remember when the first compounds were marketed and legalized. Nobody really took them too seriously either. That Allen compound looked like a real joke and wasn't really all that much better than a good recurve. Laws didn't slow down their technological growth very much over the years did they? Well anyway, we'll see how it all works out over the long haul . It's a bit early to make any predictions yet, but the opportunities are certainly there as demonstrated by this particular unit.

See there ya go again ..... trying to be a mind reader . And it doesn't surprise me that for you it is all about the crossbow and the heck with doing what's right for the disabled. That much is consistant. But I guess I've made my position as clear as I can, and if some are in favor of a "window dressing" style law for some of the disabled, then so be it. Nothing I can do about that. One last point though relative to your crossbow vs. gun comment. I have lifted and held and fired a handgun with one hand, and I'll guarantee that it is a whole lot easier than shooting a crossbow with one hand and I didn't have to shoulder anything.

Well, you did all you can do. You're just going to have to shoot 'em .....

There is no question that deer populations move up and down, primarily as a result of antlerless permit allocations. I have seen both extremes here in our area. So when someone tells me that they have a shortage of deer or an overpopulation, I have no problem believing them. Lol ..... actually it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for me to contradict them anyway since I don't hunt every locality across the state. But like I say, I have seen the cycles that deer populations go through for close to 50 years, and I have seen the huge ridiculous deer yards over by Honeoye Lake and I have seen years of extreme scarcity so I know that at certain times, both extremes can happen.

I thought I remembered reading about some old "granny-type" that was in big trouble with the DEC for feeding deer somewhere up in the Adirondacks way back in the mid or late 80's. Her feeding was basically causing a yarding situation. She was told repeatedly to stop, and didn't. How it ever turned out I never did hear. However, if I was asked to prove it, I doubt that I could ever find any reference to that article now.

That ham or bologna sounds like a good addition. I understand your concern about making your stand smell like a delicatessen, but I just can't help myself. ;D

I'll tell ya, having something good to munch on can add a few hours to my stand. It's just a great place to eat and a great way to bring yourself back to life. I add to that a cup of coffee out of the thermos every half hour or so, and I'm wide awake and ready for more stand time.

I guess what I'm not seeing responded to is the reasoning that says that we care about the disabled, but only just "this much" and only these certain categories of disabilities. I'm still trying to make some sense of that. It's not a point of view discrepancy but rather an inconsistancy of purpose that I just can't seem to understand.

New Parker Concorde Crossbow <blockquote> Here is the official press release from Parker!!! FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE PARKER REDEFINES MODERN CROSSBOW DESIGN WITH THE LAUNCH OF THE CONCORDE – THE FIRST EVER “AUTO-COCKING” CROSSBOW. MINT SPRING, VA. December 10th, 2010 …. Parker Bows does it again with the launch of another industry first: the Parker Concorde Crossbow with the patented Quick Draw System - the first ever automatic cocking crossbow. The Concorde redefines the modern hunting crossbow with push-button ease of operation and 300+ feet per second performance. At the heart of the Concorde is Parker’s patented Quick Draw System, which features a CO2 powered internal cocking mechanism. The Quick Draw System is operated by simply pressing a button that is recessed into the rear of the butt stock. By pressing the button, the Concorde automatically draws the string into the fully-cocked position. It really is that easy. Plus, it cocks the crossbow in approximately two (2) seconds and is whisper quiet in its operation. The CO2 is supplied via a standard, refillable 9 ounce CO2 bottle. A full bottle can cock the Concorde approximately 50 times. In addition to cocking the Concorde, the Quick Draw System also allows you to quickly and easily “Un-Cock” the crossbow with the same push of a button. The Concorde also features Parker’s 100% metal G2 Trigger which is 100% Made in USA and is backed by Parker’s 100% Lifetime warranty. The Concorde will be debuted at the 2011 Archery Trade Association Show in Indianapolis. The Concorde is the future. To see the Concorde on video and get all of the technical data, check out the Parker website next week. Visit www.parkerbows.com/Concorde Parker Concorde with Quick Draw System The First Ever “Auto-Cocking” Crossbow : ..... And so it begins. </blockquote>

If you take the time to actually read the replies you will see that some are definitely not getting the point.

Well, rather than repeat it all, just read my reply to Culver. A lot of it is repeated stuff that nobody seems to want to address. I think you will see that I do understand exactly what you are saying. Basically you are saying and have been saying that if the disabled issue doesn't involve a crossbow, the heck with those that can't work within that new limit. I simply don't agree with that half-way measure. As far as Sits is concerned ..... Lol, what can I say. He is kind of irrelevant to this discussion and non existant in any other topics. The only time he comes out of the woodwork is when there is a crossbow topic.... pretty much a "johnny one-note" element of back-ground noise that I have learned to ignore. :

Well now I am confused. "Added advantages" of a crossbow to compensate for disabilities .... OK. "Added advantages" of a gun to compensate for disabilities .... Not OK. Even though there may be some who cannot use a crossbow, but could participate if they were allowed to use something like a handgun. If they're just a little disabled, they can use a crossbow. If they are a lot disabled, the heck with them. Sorry Charlie, nothing we can do for you. You can't use a crossbow, you're out of luck. Just as they are being basically told they are out of luck if they can't use a bow now, we are just going to do a little shoe-shuffle and make the crossbow the new limit. When it is all done we all pat ourselves on the back and tell each other how wonderful we are while we turn our backs on those that can't participate because they can't master the one armed use of a crossbow, or those that have excruciating back, shoulder, arm or whatever, pain when they try to shoulder a crossbow. I don't know, it all seems a bit arbitrary and half-hearted to me and still winds up exclusionary. Look, for those that have an issue about the over compensation aspect, and it becomes a point of pride or whatever, there is no one saying that they have to use a pistol. If they can manage to use a crossbow and that's as far as they need to go, fine ..... go for it. But for those that don't have that choice, there are alternatives that could return them to the woods as productive hunters. That is a point that I have already made twice before.

That bothers me too. You know what I find a lot of are these plastic party balloons littering the middle of the woods. Once they're turned loose, nobody knows (or apparently cares) just where they will wind up. As far as the other trash, I usually come out of the woods with my pockets stuffed with surveyor's tape, plastic baggies, beer and soft drink bottles and cans, candy wrappers, and all kinds of other crap that people just throw on the ground. people just don't give a darn about anything anymore. By the way, it's not just hunters either. Most of the trash that I find is along the mountain bike trails that are used by bikers and hikers.

I'm trying to picture just where people could be hunting where ATV traffic could be bothering their hunting. If you're dealing with trespassers, prosecute them. If your on state land, get a good picture of them and contact the DEC because most state land is off-limits to ATVs. If they are being used on private land that you hunt but don't own, they just might have the owner's permission, in which case if it bothers you, it's probably time to move on. If they are using them on adjacent private land, that should be helping you a bit, and at any rate, that is none of your business what happens on neighboring land if it's legal. So just where is all this irritation taking place?

My cold fried egg sandwiches! I know it sounds disgusting, but that's what I cart along when I am going to have something to eat in the stand. The big problem is holding off eating the whole bunch all at once. Once I get started, stand back ..... there will be egg and toast flying all over the place. Then I wind up sitting there looking for something to eat at lunch time. Doc

I'm not sure just when this forum became populated with mind readers, but I don't think it is extreme to suggest that laws actually do what we say they are intended to do. Specifically, I will reference the point that you are still sidestepping: "I'm simply saying that if we are truly serious about helping the disabled continue to enjoy hunting, then do something meaningful like allowing them to use a weapon that really does assist almost all of them in a truly practical fashion.” That’s not extreme. That is simply attempting to add a law that encompasses as many of those that we are trying to help as possible at a very minor impact to the season. If we’re not serious about doing that, then leave things as they are. As far as your comment about “disabled people can already hunt with guns in gun season” ..... yeah ...... so? ..... next year they also will be able to hunt with crossbows in gun season........ so what? ..... What’s the point? None of that changes the fact that this bill would be meaningless to a significant percentage of the disabled that have unfair challenges and would be forced to use crossbows instead of something much more manageable like a pistol. That’s no different in principle to the way the laws are written now. You’re still trying to force them to use a weapon that has a good chance of not meeting their needs and to a certain percent will be just as useless as a compound bow. You see, everyone is trying to make the crossbow some kind of miracle weapon ...... It’s not. Certainly if the disability fits, there would be nothing wrong with them using a crossbow. But that is only a half-measure and totally useless to a whole category of disabled. So what’s the problem with also allowing the use of a pistol for the disabled? Alright, a pistol minus the scope if you want to keep it a short-range weapon. I’m not sure just what it is that you are afraid of. Properly defined and administered, the actual number of disabled that would take advantage of such a law would most likely be a very small number. And like I pointed out in the last response, you would have difficulty telling them from the existing small game hunters and turkey hunters already out there with guns during bow season. Why are we trying to pass laws that are only half-way measures? I don’t understand it unless the intent of this law is something other than helping the disabled. I’m wondering if the crossbow proponents are more concerned with using the disabled to advance their crossbow agenda than actually doing anything truly constructive for the disabled.

My mistake. I thought the point of the legislation was to keep injured or disabled people involved with hunting. That's hardly doing away with bow season or jumping off any cliffs. I'm simply saying that if we are truly serious about helping the disabled continue to enjoy hunting, then do something meaningful like allowing them to use a weapon that really does assist them in a truly practical fashion. Perhaps the type of weapon would have to be determined based on the category of disability, and I am sure that if properly defined and regulated, the small number of hunters that would actually be added afield would hardly be noticed over the existing small game hunters out there with guns already. I wouldn't be expecting a big change in deer take either. This idea of handing them a crossbow just to feel like you have done something wonderful is really only a token gesture and is pretty much the same as ignoring the disabled altogether.

I certainly hope that this idea of sueing the government for not reducing animal populations doesn't catch on everywhere. Imagine what havoc the insurance companies, farmers, nurserymen, and any other anti-deer interests could accomplish if courts started taking such lawsuits seriously here in the U.S. I can see the flood of antlerless permits now as the DEC tries to protect itself against that kind of thing ..... :

Using the same line of reasoning you could say "Why does gun season stop with just firearms? There is bound to be many disabilities that connot be compensated for by a firearm. Why are there no provisions in a bill for people in that more severe bracket of handicap to use traps to snare the deer and hold it still so they can shoot it during gun season." The reason why is because traps are not firearms, just like guns are not archery equipment. Crossbows are archery equipment. Its not rocket science. You know, you're right. At some point we just have to simply admit that we can no longer bowhunt, and there may actually be some ways to provide realistic, practical assistance. Of course that solution all depends on whether we are really concerned about disabled hunters or more interested in trying to cram crossbows into bow season in any way we can. If we are truly concerned about disabled hunters then give them the use of a weapon that actually does help them out in a real way. And that's not rocket science either.