Doc

Just don't drill it while still in the string or... twang... it will be time for a new string! No, actually I have never had a problem with that. I don't put the bit in a power drill, but instead use a small pair of vise-grips to hold the bit and rotate it by hand. It's a completely hand operation. On the Tru-peep, there is a center diameter of thinned out area that drills very easy and still has plenty of wall thickness away from the string strands even if you drilled that whole area out (which I never have). Doc

Yes, I believe that I said all that in the last paragraph of my reply. And I also stated that they had overstepped their bounds when they created the list knowing full well that it could become a subject of the Freedom of Information Act (which is also a responsibility of the government). Such lists on the personal habits and possessions of citizens should not be created in the first place. Creating such a listing with the knowledge that it could be accessed and republished in a more public media is exactly the same as publicly publishing it themselves. Also the implications of such a list is exactly as I stated. Doc

Why did they do that? Was it some article on the science of scent? I have been looking everywhere for some kind of article, video or seminar about some of the physical properties of scent and how it reacts with physical forces of nature and how deer really relate to it. I have all kinds of questions about how scent adheres to brush and weeds and what the duration of it is, and how barriers such as thickets and trees might impact the broadcast distance. I have tried the topic on several hunting forums, and have come to the conclusion that nobody has really studied the subject or ever seen such a study. But yet, I have a vague recollection of having seen such an article in a magazine years ago. The picture that you are speaking of sounds like it could have been related to that subject. I sure would like to read such an article or whatever if you can remember the origin and location of it. Doc

I could probably post a few messages in a Varmint Forum, but not this time of year. I don't get out until the dead of winter and usually well after deer season closes. I'm not really very good at it, and I sure could use all the help I could get. A forum devoted to predator calling and hunting might be quite useful to me. On the other hand if that kind of info were posted on the small game forum or anywhere else, it would be just as useful. Either way, it don't matter to me. Doc

Nah! ...... Let's just move to another old dead horse. How about we fight over AR some more ...... That's always a good one. I'll bet we can bore each other to death with those good old summer re-runs too. Doc

Lol ......... Now you have finally stumbled on it .....Ha-ha. Further discussion is a waste of breath. That just occurred to me too. Took long enough ..... lol. This entire discussion could be conducted with the cut and paste function if we had access to the old forum. And that goes for both sides of the argument. It gets a bit boring, redundant and repetitive. And look what it has done to poor old Bubba. He's been reduced to a frothing maniac who doesn't even discuss crossbows anymore. He just sits there in the corner, twitching. Personal attacks are about all he has left anymore. The rest of us pretend that we have something new to say, which really isn't true at all. It's all quite humorous actually. If this thread dies the natural death that it deserves, which most of them eventually do, I'm sure one of the crossbow proponents will start up another thread trolling for reaction. It's kind of funny, but as you said, it really is a waste of breath ....... on both sides. There's no minds being changed here. Doc

Sounds like a good place to go grocery shopping.

It's a pretty fussy process in order to get it right. I generally buy the smallest one I can get and then keep enlarging it with different sized drill bits until I am satisfied that I am getting the smallest diameter I can without sacrificing too much light loss. I'm not sure what size I wound up with when I finally was satisfied.

I've been using the ultra-nok for quite a few years now. It seems to work pretty good for getting the release jaws right in line with the nock without pulling up and pinching against the nock of the arrow. Actually one of the main reasons that I went to it was to enable me to fine tune my peep sight to get it to open up perfectly at full draw. I just have it rotated on the string slightly so that when I attach the release, it rotates the string (and peep) so it is perfectly oriented. Works slick without having to mess around with twisting the string and everything. Back when I shot fingers, I used to use a nok-set that had a little tail sticking down that could be slightly rotated on the string for the same peep aligning purpose. Back before I went to a loop, I noticed that my nocks were developing an actual indent from the upper nok-set. This was being caused by the force of the release trying to slide the arrow nock upward. There was so much force that it was actually leaving an indent in the plastic. I don't know whether all that pinch was doing any harm, but I don't get that anymore with the loop. Doc

Time keeps marching on Bill. Starting to feel a bit of that myself at 67 (68 not that far away). Sorry to hear that you had to close the archery shop. I would imagine that it was a lot of fun for you and a good way to stay involved with archery and bowhunters. Doc

Well, you'll have to take that up with your legislators because as far as I know they are both legal. Also, as far as I know they both use the same principles of operation as any other bow too.

Hey ..... big word there bubba. Don't strain yourself.....lol. By the way are you still engaged in the crossbow discussion or has this just turned into one continual personal attack for you? Just trying to understand where you are coming from so I can figure out just when to start ignoring you.

So, I will ask it here where it seems kind of relevant..... How does the DEC come up with hard numbers for deer population levels and densities? What is the procedure? What are the factors that they rely on to get those hard precise numbers? I think it will turn out that nobody knows. I wonder if the DEC does ..... lol. Frankly, I can't even imagine. Doc

There has been a few attempts at soliciting hunter input, such as the bowhunting log program and the grouse counting program, and there may be others. I am not sure how these programs are working out or what they are actually doing with the data, but they have been in place for a few years now. They are attempts at doing what you are suggesting, that is getting input from hunters. No it is not associated with licensing, and therefore does not capture 100% of the data, and perhaps that would be a useful thing to add...... Basically, a mini-survey when you purchase your license. It sounds like a pretty decent idea. Perhaps some of that would provide them with a bit of a "heads-up" when their statistical methods are beginning to creep away from reality a bit. Doc

Bill- I try not to come down too hard on the DEC because I do believe that for the most part they are trying to do the best they can with what they have. It's not an easy job, and for all the complaining that I do, I really don't know what the day-to-day difficulties are that they encounter as well as the frustrations. I do understand that we hunters are always expecting vibrant, forward thinking, evergreen activity and ideas, when the reality is that the department is getting gutted everytime we pick up the paper. Resources have been cut to the point where I really don't expect to see change probably within the rest of my lifetime. Another consideration is that we must understand the political nature of their position in government. The head of their department is a political appointment which makes the whole department beholding to the Governor. And none of these governors have ever been bashful about using that position. There are other politicians who also wield significant influence. So when it comes to pointing fingers of blame, it is really hard to figure out just who to point it at. So yes, I too will continue with the complaining and wishing things were a bit different, as will everybody else. But the reality is that it will really do no good and nothing will really ever change. In fact it likely will get a lot worse before it gets any better. And even if we could fire them all and replace them, I really doubt you would ever see much of a difference. Doc

It's true that as hunters, we are merely observers. I don't know anyone who actually attempts to apply any science to their observations and tries to make hard numbers out of what we see. Of course that doesn't mean that those people (the DEC)that officially do try to implement science and math and try to come up with hard numbers get it right either. One thing that I will say for hunter observations and conclusions is that they are the ones who are actually out there making on-the-ground field observation ...... in most cases they are the only ones. Not only that but many of us spend a lot of time out there in a year around fashion, and now a lot of us have cameras doing the leg-work for us even when we are not there. None of this is designed to arrive at pure numbers, but you certainly do get impressions of whether the deer numbers are up or down from previous years based on sign and actual observations. Also, hunters are intensely concerned with specific hunting areas, those areas that they hunt. That gives them a focused view that the DEC will never be able to achieve, even with their statistics. Another thing to remember is that the DEC statistical analysis is really only as good as the performance and observations of the hunters. After all, 100% of their input that feeds their statistical models comes from hunter successes. If hunters are getting a fouled up view of deer numbers then their results are likely to be equally fouled up. So no matter who is doing the counting, the hunters are the only key to accuracy. If they aren't right, then the DEC numbers aren't right. So, I wouldn't sell hunter opinion short. As long as I see deer populations taking the wild jumps up and down, it tells me that the management is a bit more "reactive" and less "predictive and proactive" than I would like to see it. There probably should never be an attitude of complacency ..... not by the DEC or us. There is always room for improvement. Doc

I clean each gun as soon after shooting as possible. Also, I generally will clean a gun if it has been taken out in wet weather, even if it only wiping it off and oiling it. Doc

Most likely. It's a bit like AR and some of the other hot-button issues .... lol. There is an unwritten requirement that periodically the crossbow issue has to be brought up, and the same old arguments have to be put forth over and over again. It's tradition. We have some trolls that are dedicated to always seeing that the new crossbow threads are created to keep the discussion alive. And of course when the B.S. gets a bit too deep, I am always available to jump in. Like I say, it has become a hunting forum tradition. Doc

When you say "primitive roots", are you speaking of a requirement for self-bows only with the stipulations of no modern glues or plastics or other modern bowmaking materials. Or perhaps you are talking about the longbow since it has an even more "primitive" design than the recurve. Would you like to eliminate take-down recurves? How about accessories such as arrows, releases (perhaps limited only to the Turkish thumb ring), modern string materials? Just where do you want to draw the line? You see none of that period-oriented limitation is a practical or reasonable way to define a bowseason implement is it? The fact is that we call it bowseason not primitive weapons season. And that weapon is defined clearest by the procedures to shoot it, not by any particular era that it was originated in or some arbitrary test of whether it is easier or harder to shoot. And as was decided quite a few years ago and made into law, the compound fits the needed definition and the crossbow does not. It's really quite simple when you are not trying to confuse the issue with irrelevance. Doc

That will be some very interesting info.

I am just curious as to what the procedure could possibly be for establishing a deer population. I can't even come up with a decent guess. In fact as many deer management seminars, presentations, and articles as I have come across, that is one subject that they don't seem to get into very much. I'll have to do some internet work and see if there is anything out there. Doc

Actually, since there seems to be very little activity on the Small Game forum, if a few varmint posts were to show up there, it probably wouldn't bother things too much. I don't know ...... is there such a thing as breaking a forum down too fine into too many sub-forums or doesn't it matter? I don't have any strong opinions one way or the other. Doc

Do any of you think that smoke, being a denser and thicker plume of gas particles (or whatever smoke is), maybe sends out a more stronger and concentrated kind of scent that may actually extend way beyond where ever normal human scent would extend? Do you think that since it appears to have more of a stronger smell to it that it may stay noticeable longer? Do you think that it may adhere to brush and weeds better and therefore form a more noticeable, longer lasting, and farther reaching warning to the deer than normal human scent? Doc

Simply because I do like the let-off. I hope there isn't anything wrong with that. I think that's why a lot of us moved from recurves to compounds. However, I do still mess around with my Damon Howatt and a few of my other recurves anytime I feel the urge. And I apply exactly the same shooting form and mechanics as when I am shooting my compound. The sight that I have mounted on that is very similar to the one on my compound and is used exactly the same way too. As far as hunting is concerned, over the many decades, I have concentrated my equipment and the bulk of my shooting activities to my compounds, and that is what my hunting gear is associated with. Seems reasonable. So what's your point? Doc

Actually, you aren't pointing out anything other than how rude you are. I have noticed that this is what you reduce yourself to everytime you get frustrated about not being able to conduct a discussion. Well, if that's what gets you through the day, do what you've got to do and be what you have to be. : Doc