nyantler

But do they do it voluntarily to protect yearling bucks and help the age structure or is it because they just like killing mature bucks?

I'm only painting what is there to paint.. if it's broad then it's broad... noone has posted one argument for why AR's are bad for deer... and I contend that they not only can't tell anyone why they're bad, they can't tell anyone why they are good for the deer... they can only tell why they are bad or good for themselves... I understand the opposition from a personal level... I have yet to see opposition because it is somehow not a good idea for the herd... and that comes from a selfish.. meaning about self rather than about the objective of the program.

You lost me there.. what is it that I don't agree with?

See thats what I'm talking about... you really haven't learned anything at all if thats what you got out it... it isn't about anyones ideals.. it's about balancing the buck herd... it's about age not antlers... it would be much easier to sell if bucks didn't have antlers... but they do.. and that is the best and easiest way in the field to judge yearlings from adults... no matter how anyone slices it... you can't have a diverse buck herd with a balance of younger and older bucks without noticing that there are bigger antlers among the herd. The DEC has done such a bad job ( or I guess a good job)managing NY for small bucks over the last 100 years that hunters believe age diversity isn't a good thing for the herds... somehow we have been led to believe that its okay for the vast majority of bucks to be under 2 years old...

Yeah he looks like a solid 130 class 8 point... high 130's though... really nice 8 pt

Not at all... except for the part where there are some for and against them... there are numerous facts, data and hard evidence that prove they work... and you really don't have to look hard to find it...

you can get the deer data from the DEC for NY... increased average deer weights, decrease in yearling buck harvest, increase in adult buck harvests... the only one you need for NY though is the decrease in the number of yearling bucks harvested which was the intended goal of the program.. which would equate to AR's being successful in the areas they have been implemented... you can check the data in the other 22 states as well... it is there... what you won't find is any data saying they have been unsuccessful in achieving their intended goal.. which is always to decrease the number of yearlings killed and increase the number of mature bucks to create balance in the age structure... which is always a benefit to the herd. The only reason that AR's would not work would be due to hunters not adhering to the AR law... or maybe a disease taking over the herd and killing all the deer. The data is there if you really want it... but like I said before hunters that don't like AR's really don't care what benefit they do or don't have for the deer herd or how successful they are, sadly there is no proof in the world that is going to change that... For me personally, as soon as someone can prove that they are not successful and beneficial... I will stop supporting them.

Probably so.. but those individuals are looking for a point to turn off anyway because they no longer have anything to bring to the discussion. Most of them refuse to educate themselves on the subject and instead spout misinformation or, in some cases, just make up something that has no basis in truth or fact.

So true.. but in their defense many irresponsible hunters of the past ruined things for a lot of us. But i still think farmers could be selective about letting a certain amount of hunters hunt their property instead of just entertaining mass killings by one or two of their friends or relatives with nuisance permits.

He is a great 8 pt, but i have seen so many i can tell you for sure he doesn't get to 150

The cup of a mature whitetails ear is 6"... you can base your measurements from there... mine are pretty close I bet... beams may be 26... but that would only get him to 147 gross.. then lets give him a 20" spread.. thats 149... I've been a measurer for a lot of years and have seen 100's of trophy racks... I'm usually pretty close if not dead on... deductions would pull him way below the 150 mark Take away the velvet and although he is a very impressive 8pt... his score does not get to 150.

Not trying to persuade... don't care that anyone is offended by my statement... the truth is the truth... Those that are entrenched will be there regardless of any good argument for AR's...show me one argument that gives one good reason why AR's are bad for NY whitetails... there isn't one on this thread or any on this forum... all the arguments have to do with something that the hunter feels is limiting his ability to kill his buck. That is a selfish argument and has nothing to do with why AR's are bad for their intended objective which is to protect yearling bucks. You can call my comment based on personal observation anything you like, but it doesn't make it any less true. Sometimes the truth hurts.

That is quite possibly true

If you all look really hard at the photo.. that is a 10 not an 8.. look really hard!! just kidding, but made you look... ears on mature whitetail are about 6" so: G1 = 8x2 = 16 G2 = 10x2 = 20 G3 = 6x2 = 12 Beams based on ears about 22x2= 44 C1 = 5 C2 = 4.5 C3 = 3.5 C4 = 3 spread = 20? gross score 144

if his beams are (24") g-1's (4"), g-2's (10") g-3's (8") circumference each side ( maybe 17") and spread (18")... I come up with a gross of 143 with no deductions... that's where I would score it. maybe with g-4's as a 10 pt he might get 150 His net would be way below 150 with deductions

If you create more access to hunting lands you will create more hunters.. it is kind of a "build it and they will come" situation. Most guys give up hunting because they have no access to a place to hunt that is convenient for them.

I agree there are too many hunters that are for AR's because of the bigger bucks.. I am not one of them... I can kill a big buck without AR's.. I'm more concerned about having a wider variety of age classes.. and for the record.. the DEC's statement about there being no biological need for AR's is true... yearling bucks are sexually mature and can breed so whitetail populations can be maintained without older bucks... but if you ask them further if there is a benefit to having a more diverse age structure among bucks in the herd they will tell you yes... they know age structure is very beneficial to a deer herd.. they are just saying that there is no necessity at this point to worry that the deer herd is in any danger biologically... which doesn't mean that it isn't a good idea to try to optimize age structure or buck:doe ratios that are healthier for a natural herd. Protecting yerlings allows them to physically (not sexually) mature... young bucks are like teenagers.. biologists equate a yearling buck to a 13 year old human male.. sexually mature, but not fully grown physically.. if they are doing all the breeding, then they are not getting the nutrition and are using up valuable resources needed to build themselves physically to survive to maturity even if hunters aren't killing them.. I could go on about all the raesons why young bucks should be protected... but please read some of the material that is available on the subject and you will get why I am in favor of a better age structure.. I am sorry to say that many hunters refuse to find out why protecting them is important because that is not important to them.. they are only concerned with selfish motives that have nothing to do with conservation or anything beneficial to the animal... they just want to kill a deer so they can puff their chest and show what a man they are... they have little regard really for the animal that makes them feel so much like a "man". As for QDMA.. they cater to those that want to manage property for bigger whitetails... although they are for healthier herds.. most of what they do is rapped around growing bigger bucks... which is fine if thats what you want to do with your property. The reason NY picked the zones they picked for AR's is because of the huge yearling buck takes coming from those areas.. they also were seeing lower body weights and a large number of spike horn bucks... which is primarily the product of bad buck:doe ratios and young bucks not becoming physically mature because they have become the primary breeder in the herd. AR's in NY have little to do with QDM or the QDMA.

I think you hit the nail on the head... beams may be a bit longer, but you pretty much nailed it.

He is closing in on the 140 mark... hard for an 8 to get to 150 without being exceptional, but he might be on his way with those brow tines, good mass, long beams and wide spread.. if his g-3's were a bit longer he just might make 150 Circumference measurements are usually what pushes a buck like this to higher scores and he has some mass

yeah I can see your point.. there are some that have trouble getting their point across without purposely offending others... me personally..I am not trying to win support for AR's... that comes with hunters understanding more about their true objective not the one that has been manufactured by those that think the DEC is managing for trophies. I merely point out what I believe to be misinformation or weak arguments against AR's... I just honestly don't see the huge problem with counting 3 pts on a side.. if I saw a "good" argument then I might embrace it, but i have yet to see one that doesn't involve a hunters selfish motive or even a valid argument to why AR's are bad for the whitetail in NY. It is a mistake to think that QDM is the same thing as the current AR's going on in NY... it is not the same. QDM is a total herd management plan.. AR's in NY are simply a way to reduce the number of yearling bucks harvested giving them a chance to reach maturity... and definitely doesn't even come close to trophy management. I think a good argument against AR's would be something that explains why protecting yearling bucks is bad for hunting or deer management... not "because I'm a meat hunter". I will always hold the position that if AR's are simply for creating trophy bucks then they are a bad idea... although that might be the motive of some misinformed QDM supporters... I don't believe that is why the DEC is entertaining the idea of AR's here in NY and I will continue to support any idea that protects yearling bucks.

What is detailed about counting 5 points? I just don't understand the complexity. The current AR is a 3 on a side rule to help protect the majority of yearling bucks... that is the objective... hunters should be more concerned about the objective than how bad they are at counting to 5... a hunter that puts having to fill a tag before responsiblity to the law IS an unsafe hunter in my eyes. How many times do you hear a hunter say after the kill " I could have sworn he was a 6 pointer, but he had no brow tines when I got up to him"? With no AR in place that is a mistaken identity.. because there was no reason for him have to count more than a 3" horn to shoot... with AR's in place that is an irresponsible hunter that just broke the law... its that simple. NO EXCUSES.

Well I guess those hunters that want to hunt that close to the minimum and can't tell a 4-point from a 5 or 6-point better be a bit more careful... and a speedometer doesn't have the ability to choose.. people do... you can't equate the failure of a machine to the irresposible attitude of a person.

You must not be listening to what I'm saying... not taking the time to be absolutely sure of what you are shooting at is not an honest mistake. It is instead not doing what needs to be done to follow the law.. no matter what the law is... I guess we both can agree that there will be deer left in the woods, but we disagree that that it will not be an honest mistake. So I'm also saying that it is not a good excuse for breaking any law... which makes it not a good argument against AR's. I absolutely understand that there will be irresponsible hunters that will shoot the wrong deer... there have been irresponsible hunters way before AR's and there will be long after.

I think virgil gave up on us...

Hey thats exactly why I built this one!! Very easy to take care of as well.