nyantler

It has little to do with biology and more to do with managing for more does back when the deer numbers in NY were non existent... their failure to understand deer biology in the past led to the boom in the doe population and the skew in the buck to doe ratio... the antlerless permits are a direct result of realizing their error and trying to correct the imbalance in the ratios due to the lack of doe harvest for so many years.. their one buck.. no doe policy for many years created the need to reduce doe population as availible habitats started to diminish.. but it was also used as a tool for the past 20-25 years to get ratios more in balance... especially after they started seeing 20:1 ratios pop up in parts of NY.. so in fact ratios were and still are a part of the antlerless permit program and the thought process behind it. What most hunters don't know is that what some would consider deer biology in the past was merely anticdotal and had little to do with the actual study of the whitetail deer... it wasn't until the 80's that any real biological studies of whitetails were being done on a large scale and the 90's before that information started to get to the public... true deer biologists were virtually non existent before 1980.. in fact if you look at any books published on whitetails prior to that you will find much of the so called biological information has been proven to be incorrect.

I thought I'd experienced it all before last evening... i was coming out of the woods.. it was still light out but legal hunting was over... as i can around a hedrow to a grassy lane leading to my truck i saw a doe staring at me about 50 yards away on the other side of the lane... at first i thought I'd back track as not to spook her, but then my curious side came out and I decided to see what I could get away with... the lane is about 30-35 yard wide.. so I started walking up my side of the grass lane against the hedgerow but in the open to see how long she would tolerate my presence... I was wearing my ghilie suit, but my head wasn't covered at the time.. I walked slowly bent over up the lane. I got exactly opposite from her in the lane just 30-35 yards apart and she didn't move.. she just kept staring.. I stopped and kneeled on the ground thinking she would do the old tail flip and bound away.. but she just stayed there watching... so I took out my camera to get a pic.. I wasn't sure it would come out because of the lack of light but what the heck!.. i pointed the camera and pushed the button.. the camera flashed.. she flinched at the sight of the flash.. then returned to her upright position and kept staring.. unbelievable!.. I put my camera back in my fanny pack and started again bent over up the hedgerow to my truck... looking back to see her still staring at me all the way up... the last time I looked back she had her head down and had continued feed on in the grass... I think I've seen it all now.. you just never know for sure what a whitetail is going to do at any given moment. The pic came out dark like I thought it would but you can see her eyes..

"heartbreaking nightmare" that is perfect..

I'm not sure thats true.. I would bet that the buck take for a given area is taken into consideration when antlerless permit amounts are decided.. that would be basing permits on gender ratio.. I wonder why the DEC hasn't changed to a doe tag for everyone and limited buck tags for WMU's.. If the original 3" rule with no doe tag was meant to increase doe populations (which it was) then why not try the plan in reverse to gain control of the doe population and increase buck age structure... I think we all know the reason... their would be very little hunter cooperation... if hunters couldn't get a buck tag.. most would not hunt... now here comes the posts saying " I would.. it's not about bucks for me" ... but i promise if the DEC even considered that idea.. hunters would be up in arms about possibly not getting a buck tag.. its always been about themselves and not the deer for most hunters.. and there seems to be no end in sight for that mentality preventing better deer management.

hey it beats falling out of the stand...

I'm not sure it's jealousy in general.. some people maybe.. but not most.. I have plenty of money and time for food plots... but I'm not terribly keen on them so I don't plant them... regulating food plots is no more socialistic than regulating a corn pile... or laws against hunting at night... its just making sure that the concept of food plots doesn't get out of hand... food plotting was not originally part of a management program... the original idea was tending to already present food sources and browse... cleaning up orchards, trimming trees things like that... then it went to planting clovers and such to give the deer a little more for the winter.. to full blown hybrid plants and acres and acres of newly introduces foods for the sole purpose of attracting deer.... the original idea was just to maintain the natural food source to give the deer a leg up for the winter months.. the later plan was produced with the intent to attract and hold deer.. one is natural.. the other, not so much... I'm still not totally against them... they just aren't for me... but it has nothing to do with jealousy.

look at it this way.. anything is better than falling to the ground from your stand.. duct taping myself to the tree would be an option..lol

This is the reason I never bowhunt in the rain... I have helped way too many hunters look for their wounded buck in the rain and the recovery rate is unbelievably low.. just not a good idea.. like Doc says though, the light intermitant stuff doesn't usually deter me.

My "true talker" grunt tube.. I had on my ghillie suit and thought he had me busted in the field at about 100 yards because I had just jumped him and another buck just before that.. thought I'd mess with him so I grunted once and he started walking to me in the field and stopped about 25 yards away looking at me. I could have killed him... but he was so stupid I would be afraid to eat the meat...LOL

Called this little guy back to within 25 yards after busting him and his buddy from their beds...

Yes they would have recognized it as unusable.. as for CWD... there has only been two known cases ever in NY and both were captive deer.. so I doubt highly that it has CWD...

Actually in a round about way they are the reason that Mr Long got caught... they didn't realize what he was up to.. and contacted the taxidermist to let him know that Mr Long wanted to get the buck mounted that he just killed on their farm... shortly after, Mr Long called the taxidermist to see about getting a buck mounted that he killed and the taxidermist didn't think much about it until Mr Long led him to believe that he was looking to score it for the record book... Matt Cooper talked to the taxidermist, who he knows, and one thing led to another. I don't think the farm condones what Mr Long did and in no way helped him with his plan.. I think they more or less wanted to keep out of the whole situation after learning of Mr Longs intent to have it scored for the books.

With all due respect i think you are mixing up total deer populations with displacement population issues created in areas because of the housing boom that ate up tens of thousands of acres of deer habitat in the 80's and 90's... there were still the same number of deer now confined to less and less habitat... causing the DEC to have to issue more permits to help balance populations with available habitat. Total numbers in NY have remained relatively stable with very small increases or decreases. Yet deer densities may have exploded or plummetted in certain areas depending on that areas habitat vs. deer situation Just because the DEC has made a decision not to incorporate gender ratios into population control doesn't meet that it can't be done... the same population of deer could be easily balanced between bucks and does.. through simple changes in harvesting practices... whether or not hunters would buy into those changes is another topic.

Great Buck!.. I sent you a message Rob

Lowland Whitetails

I have never heard of an explosion or plummetting of the deer population in NY in the last 30 years... to my knowledge neither has occured.. poplulation control, especially in the last 30 years has had everything to do with loss of habitat and displacement of deer... and really little to do with any statewide population explosions or plummetting. The NY herd has actually grown in the last 20 years.. not exploded, just grown.. so I'm not sure were you got the plummetting idea after the 90's.

http://www.watertown...EWS03/710039822 this is the stroy I had to keep quiet since last friday after talking with Matt Cooper (NYSBBC scorer)... we were trying to give Mr. Long a graceful way out, but he continued to try and make his false story public. He was charged with filing a false report by using a NYS tag of the farmed deer. His brother Mike who posted on this forum had nothing to do with his brothers plan and was totally unaware of what was going on.. I have spoken to Mike via email and he feels terrible about the whole thing.. he just found out like the rest of you.

There is no thinking left to do... the DEC aren't investigating where the buck was killed that has already been determined... they are more likely investigating the tagging of it... lots more to come.

here is a buck taken from the same property as the long buck.. if this helps any..

Hopefully I will be able to tell the whole story soon... stay tuned.

A decoy does work very well for the bigger bucks I don't use one because I'm not sitter, but I know fellas that do and they swear by them this time of year... I use the "True Talker" call... Hunters Specialties sells it now... I have the original one from the inventor David Oathout... it is, in my opinion, the best deer call on the market.

I would have a much harder time killing the fawn.

I think the greatest gift we can give our soldiers is an offering of thanks for the duty they have performed for their country.. May God have mercy on your friend and I would like to thank you and him for your service to our country and its citizens.

Shooting a doe with fawns is high unlikely to affect the fawns ability to survive... possibly a late born fun might have some trouble, but they might have trouble anyway... it is usually more about whether it bothers you or doesn't bother you... kind of a personal thing for each individual.. I don't have any problem killing a doe with fawns, but can understand how some hunters might.

Most of the racks I score have just the skull plate because the hunter is having them mounted by a taxidermist....