nyantler

I think the guy truly hates QDM and might not really know what it truly is, only what he has witnessed... Although I don't hate it, I am not a big fan of what it has become either.. or maybe I should say, the way many hunters and groups practice it. The original concept is a very sound management plan, but somewhere it got sidetracked. It was never intended to be a trophy buck managing program or a deer farming program, big bucks just happen to be a beneficial bi-product of a sound and complete deer management program. It was never intended to piss off hunters, it was intended to help hunters understand how they could improve habitat, balance deer herds, and improve the health of the overall herd in that habitat. Although the OP doesn't have much tact, some of what he says is what many others feel about what QDM has become. Many of the hunters that practice or think they practice "QDM" on their property, should take the time to read carefully some original material from the early 90s on what it is really about. Lose the managing for big bucks mentality and the food plotting mentality and take a close look at what the real objectives are with an open mind... you might find yourself enlightened by what you discover about what the meaning of QUALITY really is in Quality Deer Management. Hint: It is not just about the quality of the bucks or the size of your food plots, or even the number of trail cams you put out.

Not my style of driving, but fun to watch. Except for the shot uphill with rifle where the hunter couldn't tell what was over the crest of the hill... that wasn't cool.

Great video of Loch Ness Monster https://www.facebook.com/IFeakingLoveScience/videos/1209920062362336/?pnref=story

I think we agree on a lot of this... just not on the part about a OBR being the answer. I also think that each region must be treated separately, especially the ADK's... and western NY is much different than long island and the Catskill area. I am in agreement on the interruption of certain seasons that seem to make no sense. The DEC would really have to explain to me how any of what they're planning has anything to do with good overall deer or habitat management.

The only thing that will stop the continuation of deer hunting in our lifetime is the eradication of whitetails in NY. I promise the sky won't fall any time soon despite anything you like or don't like about NY deer management ideas. What you call the "right tools" are relative to your position on management in general and varies depending on who you talk to. So far nobody has invented the "right tool" in NY that I can see based on the progress over the last 40 years. Not for lack of trying, but more the lack of a consensus by NY hunters and sometimes the DEC to buy into new ideas. I've spent 25 years involved in it all... it's your turn now... have at it! Every generation needs a successor.. hopefully we'll meet someday in the future when your older and wiser and laugh at how unimportant hunting is in the scheme of life. Until then good luck and have some fun. That's really the greatest trophy you will ever get from hunting if you're doing it right.

Sorry it took so long to get back too you.. I have a real life to live first. The biggest problem is that we don't have a Conservation Dept. that has a track record of being effective in managing deer herds, hunters that can't make up their minds what they want or why they want it... as for demographics the 6 million acre ADK park is a different animal than anywhere in the country... and not easily manageable based on the mindset and cooperation by the state to do what it takes to manage it. As for the deer here they are a different strain than those of the south and act much differently than southern deer that don't have to deal with harsh winters. NY doesn't have other types of big game like the west ei. elk, mule deer, pronghorn, other sheep or big cats which take up the slack of a shorter whitetail season... I'll stop there so I don't get a cramp typing and to say... Beyond all that if all the other states programs are that much better and would be viable here, why hasn't the DEC seen that and jumped on board with the "end all be all" ideas of those states. They're either extremely stupid (possible) or they know the same thing that Doc and I suggest, NY is an entirely different animal and has underlying factors that steer them away from those programs. You don't need to respond because this isn't a discussion I care about winning or losing. I don't care to convince you or change your mind... it's my opinion and observation base on 25 years of personally dealings with both hunters and the DEC... I don't need facts add figures to tell me the sky is blue or the grass is green... I can see everything with my own eyes and hear with my own ears... the trend has been the same for 40 years and doesn't seem to be letting up. I will adjust to whatever regs. come down the pike and continue to enjoy hunting in spite of it all. I respect your opinion, mine just happens to be different.

You read it correctly.. I really don't care.. none of it impacts my hunting experience in the least. I don't feel that I'm getting screwed in any way because I don't look at it like you. IMO there really are no regs that prevent hunters from being good stewards of deer on their own. I love hunting and I can't think of anything that can change that. All of this to me is just a fun exchange of ideas and opinions. Deer management discussions are very interesting to me. Kind of like people watching, but with different ideas and opinions as the subject rather than different looking people. It's not important at all, just fun. It isn't about dog eat dog... I don't see it that way... it's just not important in the scheme of life. Life is too short for me be losing sleep over a few deer management rules and regulations. Especially if it involves getting upset, resorting to name calling and making enemies of fellow hunters to get a point across... that in itself is not productive or important to me.

I'm not sure how anyone can refute any of what you're saying or asking? In my view it has all been right on point. Maybe the fact that some still don't want to accept it is the reason nothing has changed in the ever growing need to manage deer and their populations in NYS.

I am in agreement with recruting younger hunters, but with diminishing hunter numbers the only way to keep up with deer populations is to kill more deer. Go back to some of my original posts and you will find where I say that I am all about the hunting experience. Personally, I don't concern myself with what other hunters are doing... I don't care much about rule changes because they rarely affect my style of hunting or my hunting experience and if they did I would change to adapt. This forum is probably the only place that anyone will hear my opinions on deer management and that is only because I enjoy being involved in the debates on here. I gave up long ago trying to convince hunters that being a conservationist is a responsibility that all hunters need to embrace if they are truly concerned about the future of hunting. These days I am just a hunter that does his part and pretty much goes by the rule "Shut up and hunt". Like you, my ONLY goal is to enjoy my hunting experience... my opinions on the forum are strictly to participate in the enjoyment of this forum with fellow hunters. Frankly, all of this is near the bottom of the list of important things in life, but maybe near the top of the list of things that are enjoyable to participate in. Purely entertainment for me.

Numbers or no numbers.. incentives or no incentives.. hunters aren't going to buy into any program until they know where we are at and understand clearly how any new regulation is going to help get to the objective. You can woulda, coulda, shoulda all day long. But, that's just the way it is. I am not saying it is just the hunters not doing their part, I'm saying they are and will always be reluctant to do their part until the DEC comes up with a good system of informing hunters of the what and why. Until then we will continue with the status quo, ideas with no result. Again, you young guys have to stop relating NY to other states like it's the same. It's not. For 40 years now I've seen it all come down the pike and still here we are exactly where we were 40 years ago. I'd be willing to bet that if you gave out unlimited doe tags you still wouldn't see any difference in the doe take numbers... what you and I might know needs to be done won't happen with any quick fix any time soon. An entire antlerless season for archery season with no chance for a buck with bow would quickly end bow hunting as we know it and would have a negative effect on hunting... you're smart enough to know that.

The problem isn't that there isn't any magic bullets... there certainly are. The problem is getting hunters to understand and get on board. What works in other states may or may not work in NY. The factors Doc mentioned in his second paragraph of his last post is right on point. Should we try what other states are doing? Maybe... but to say it works there so it should work here falls short of common sense. 20 years ago issuing more doe tags was the answer... that hasn't really worked out so well has it? Every state has to make a plan based on what is going on in that state... nobody in the DEC has really told us what is going on OR how their plan will fix it. We need to start there first!

The low number of hunters and dwindling habitat does create a problem for the DEC in some respects but it doesn't change the fact that todays NY hunters aren't always on board with doing what they need to do to help the situation. 40 years ago I got 1 tag. It was a buck tag. Getting a party permit was unheard of for most and if you got one it was JUST 1. There were virtually no bowhunters and the season was about 3 weeks long. Habitats were much bigger and access was easier and hunters took about the same number of deer overall as they do today. Since then Habitats and access may have lessened but the number of tags issued per hunter on average is 3 to 6 times greater depending on where you are, the hunting season is two months long. That tells me that hunters aren't doing their part when it comes to filling doe tags or even buck tags for that matter. The fact that the number of hunters has diminished by about 45% but get 3-6 times more tags to fill ( most of those DMP's) shows a failure by hunters to fill doe tags at a level needed to continue holding populations to where they belong... the lower hunter participation shouldn't be an issue as enough tags have been issued to more than make up for the loss of hunters if you do the math. There is an answer to the problem.. and the answer is: If hunters are truly concerned about the deer population and whether or not we're keeping up with proper management of deer herds, then they can't sit back on idle thinking that they aren't a huge factor in the problem. Some hunters fail to do their part, yet complain as if it is the rest of the hunters responsibility to take up their slack. "Someone else will kill the does I refuse to kill"

Hawken with patch and round ball.

I have a great idea.. tell hunters that they can use as many buck tags as they like until they kill the buck of their dreams and watch them come running to support that reg...

I've had non-resident hunters tell me how good NY deer hunting is compared to other states... makes me chuckle because usually just before that I heard a NYer say just the opposite. Hunter cooperation in other states is way better than here... NY hunters are a fickle group... harder to manage than the deer herd!

I have worked for the state and you are right on point. It's almost a crime when you witness it in person. The on the job perks are even better than the benefits!

And again, you failed to read my original post based on your last paragraph...and making things not your business is a good cop out in my opinion. But, I do understand some peoples unwillingness to get involved.. it seems to be the way of the world now.

I'd like to know how breaking game laws right underneath another hunter's nose can not become his business... and how acting like a pussy about it is better than doing something about it. The more you take the cowards route towards law breakers the easier it becomes for them to do what they do. Must be a terrible thing to always be running scared and not be able to stand up like a man (or woman) for what is right

I guess my point was that the cajoling and enticement and issuing of 3 times as many tags over the last 40 years has really gotten them nowhere. During those forty years the DEC has never explained where we are and what the goals are. It's very hard to come up with a working plan when you aren't telling anyone what the objective numbers are. Yes, dictating and restricting isn't the answer either and is starting to piss off more and more hunters... I'm not saying the DEC needs to hold classrooms to teach biology or start a billboard campaign for managing deer. But the hunters, being an important resource, need to understand the problem and the proposed solutions and have some say in those solutions if we're ever going to get their cooperation. The only way to change hunter mindset is to educate them on what and why... after that maybe a little tickling of their nuts may be in order to give that extra push to do what needs to be done.

Looks like it might be a good year for the little oak seeds!!

I downloaded the windows10 upgrade... I like it just fine... I would probably like it more on a new computer. It is different and maybe not the best for the novice or computer illiterates... I am a bit more savvy than most on a computer having used one for the last 25 years... so I might not be the best one to ask if you're a little less savvy. But, for me, so far .. so good!

Most of you by now know my feelings about breaking the hunting laws... I am the guy who will definitely turn you in... having said that I NEVER interrupt my enjoyment of hunting to search out wrong doers. I am not going to spend my hard earned time in the woods on patrol. I give all hunters ( friends included ) the benefit of the doubt and assume you're doing the right thing. I draw the line ( with anyone) when you just can't help telling me or showing me that I was wrong in trusting your integrity when it comes to hunting. If I know about it ( and can prove it ) so will the authorities. I will never let anyone put me in a position where I know of or can be considered in anyway a part of something that could put my hunting in jeopardy. I wouldn't do that to them and I expect the same courtesy. Pretty simple. The only possible exception might be in the case of a young kid making a young kid mistake that may not have been a blatant attempt to break the law... in which case I would let that kid know what the "mistake" was and let him know that the next time wouldn't work out as well for them.

It's disheartening that we have to always find a way to entice hunters into doing what is best for conservation. We've been trying to get ratios in sync for years without any real headway and still most hunters are reluctant to do what is needed to get the herds in balance. I would rather see the DEC start explaining exactly where we are and exactly where we need to be... then tell hunters what they need from them to reach those goals. Instead of, looking for ways to trick hunters into what they want them to do. I truly believe that OBR would rekindle the old mindset of using your wife, grandmother, or dead uncles tags to keep buck hunting... for those who may have forgotten, that was the way of the hunter as recent as 35 years ago... if the issuing of 3 times the tags as 35 years ago has not worked, I don't see how just shuffling the deer tag deck a little will make any difference as long as hunters don't know what the true numbers goal is, "earn a buck" tag or not... just doesn't make sense to me.

Hence, the reason why you'll find opinions all over the map when a new regulation or recommendation is purposed. It is definitely the way it is and I too don't see it changing ever. I do find that knowing a little bit about all of it gives one a tad bit more credibility when discussing hunting related issues. But, God bless the hunter that foregoes all the knowledge for having a great time... above it all that is always really my motivation for hunting as well.

I find it funny how some of you fail to see how most hunters really are in NY. I've been dealing with them for almost 30 years. Spoken to thousands of hunters and although there are a few factions out there that are a bit more educated on whitetails, habitats, and management. The vast majority of hunters know little ( and simply don't care ) about any of that. Hence the reason why the DEC knows they can run willy nilly with the statements and regulations they put out. Like I said earlier, in your inner circle you may find the same mindset as you, but beyond that inner circle lies a vast population of hunters that can't be bothered with learning anything about real deer management, population control, biology.. etc. That is the way it is... so there will always be complaining, opinions that differ and so on... but deer hunting seems to go on despite it all... there will probably never be a hunting Utopia in NYS.. so make the most of what you're given, have some fun, express your opinions and move on... in the scheme of things it isn't worth losing a ton of sleep over... it just makes for good conversation among hunters.