Curmudgeon

As a proponent of copper bullets and slugs, I agree that HSUS is not interested in changing how we hunt. If the NRA and UHUS would both quit with the Pb propaganda pro and con, maybe we could have an intelligent conversation.

When I bow hunted years ago, I would get in a groove shooting groups in July. Once tuned up I would shoot one arrow each day. I figured, if I could not be accurate with the first shot, the rest were wasted. That was pre-compound bow, no sights. When they required bow hunters to have a special class in the late 70s, I shot better with my recurve than every guy on the line who had a compound. At that time they were new. A lot has changed. Being able to hit the target did not always translate into success in the field.

You should probably ask DEC. They contracted with APHIS to eliminate them during the winter of 2013-14. Maybe they did. Maybe they are gone.

The elk are not confined. They migrate south in the Teton Valley and the fences keep them from reaching Jackson. They are wild elk concentrated where they shouldn't be in winter. There is not enough food so they feed them. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Elk_Refuge : Elk migrate from as far away as southern Yellowstone National Park and historically migrated south of the present location of the refuge into southwestern Wyoming during the fall, wintering on grassy plains that were usually snowfree most of the winter. During the spring, the herd would follow the retreating snows back into the Yellowstone National Park region. The original size of the elk herd has been estimated to have been in excess of 25,000. The expansion of the town of Jackson blocked off the migration route by the end of the 19th century and the elk herd was severely reduced in size due to the hostile climate and lack of food supply.

Paula - If you are crazy, it has nothing to do with the fox. According to my old Peterson Field Guide, Mammals, a black phase exists. I am jealous. I've never seen one.

Doc - You are putting your thoughts into an animal's mind. Then you assume you understand the animal and ignore the species that evolved around it. Humans can examine their motivations - not that all do. Humans kill for many reasons from emotional release to fun. Some even kill because they need the food. A dog, a wolf, a weasel does not think/act in this way. Its mind does not make such distinctions. Killing prey by wild animals is essential for survival. Killing lots of prey increases the odds of survival. Dogs (red herring but I'll bite anyway) retain the desire to hunt and kill but not the need. A whole suite of species evolved around wolves. All of that meat would have been consumed if humans did not intervene. Most by wolves, ravens and eagles, some by coyotes, bears, mice, badgers, Stellar's Jays, crows, microtus and other rodents, etc.,etc. etc. Not a bit of it would have been wasted. The wealth of prey provided by a man-made, artificial situation created an opportunity the wolves exploited. This may be unfortunate. The wolves are not to blame for being wolves. My objection is not with the common man's lack of understanding. My problem is the way it is being portrayed. It is propaganda plain and simple. It was unprofessional for the WY spokesman to present it in that way. This is NO DIFFERENT than what the animal rights groups do to hunters.

Yes, and yes. Unnatural is an understatement. Anyone who has traveled into Grand Teton from Jackson has seen the fences that confine the elk on three sides.

Anthropomorphizing is common among the public and hunters. When a wildlife professional does it in a statement to the press, he is behaving unprofessionally. I have no doubt that someone in WY government decided to present this in a way that would generate more negativity towards wolves. A real professional would have objected to making such a statement. Maybe a professional in that department did and they got someone else to do it. I am sure there are some ethical people who work for the State of Wyoming.

You have to love how someone will take one facet of a complicated issue in an argument and ignore the rest. The article claims the bans are motivated by "claims that the process is poisoning America’s drinking water." Drinking water is only one of many concerns. Air quality concerns are much better documented, and were certainly more of a concern to me. Damage to roads, hydrology and wildlife habitat are well documented. Consider the cheating of lessees by gas companies. Consider all those promises of royalty wealth that did not come true. Drinking water is A concern. Only a fool - or someone being dishonest - would claim it to be the only issue. Cuomo did the politically expedient thing. That does not mean it was wrong. With the court ruling that towns could stop it with local land use regulations, allowing it would have meant wars between neighbors in hundreds of little towns. Cuomo declared peace in the small towns of the Marcellus shale.

If you want a debate about predators, the carrying capacity of the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem, the unnatural situation that created this opportunity for wolves, and wolves in general, posting such propaganda is not helpful. WY government has a negative attitude towards wolves. However, it is disturbing that a WY wildlife official will anthropomorphize them to affect public sentiment. Predators kill. It is not "sport". It is deadly serious. They kill more than they can eat because food is not always available. Kill a bunch and you have food for a long while. A carcass is an ephemeral thing. A whole range of scavengers will strip it in a short time. I've seen adult deer carcasses stripped by just ravens in several hours. The "mostly calves" comment is over the top. According to the RMEF "Calf: Baby elk". Those "calves" are a couple hundred pounds in March, not babies. The area where they feed elk at Jackson is a man-made disaster, an elk zoo. The spokesman is "concerned" about the wolves behavior but apparently not so much for unnatural concentration that created this situation. The reason the elk are stuck there and must be fed hay is because humans blocked their migration route. The elk are effectively confined in the valley, where they depend on humans to bring hay. If elk could migrate, they would be spread out across the landscape.

Beautiful shots. I was told newts tasted bad. That's why I never eat them. I will have to reconsider.

The Bronx is way down low. NYC isn't uniform. My odds are better here in Otsego County that where I was born and lived for my first 5 years.

Nice . I saw 8 Toms displaying with about 50 other birds around them yesterday.

Youth often equals stupid. I have experienced trespassing with quads and trucks here. I have witnessed ATV use in NYS wilderness areas (including a mile long cut ATV trail). I think I can go out on a limb and say a lot of off-roaders have their share of stupid too. Some have little respect for property or the law. I have always thought that a good punishment for illegal use of vehicles on protected land would be to confiscate the machine and sell it. Use the proceeds for habitat improvement or restoration. Every machine. Every time. The idiot kid still needs to be punished for the assault. It would seem something could be done with him that might teach him and would benefit society. Prison costs us a lot and might turn him into a hardened criminal .

This is the release. Truck. Three Arrested after Assaulting DEC Officer During Off-Road Vehicle Enforcement Operation Incident Occurs as DEC and State Police Increase Enforcement of Illegal ATV/ORV Use in Pine Barrens Three men face charges of up to ten years in jail after a joint detail by New York State Police and New York State Department of Environmental Conservation resulted in an Environmental Conservation Officer (ECO) being run over during an operation to crack down on illegal All-Terrain Vehicle (ATV) and Off-Road Vehicle (ORV) use in the Pine Barrens. On March 13, ECO Travis McNamara and NYS Trooper Fabio Daino were on a multi-agency ATV/ORV patrol, sponsored by the Pine Barrens Law Enforcement Council, when the officers encountered three four-wheel drive vehicles operating illegally off road on PSEG property in Shoreham. Officer McNamara was speaking to the driver of the lead truck, Trevor Galvez, 17, of Selden, when he and the other drivers attempted to flee. Galvez quickly backed up, running over the lower leg and foot of Officer McNamara, fracturing several bones. Officer McNamara was taken to Stony Brook University Hospital where he underwent surgery and was released later last week. Trooper Daino apprehended Galvez and another driver, Richard Hughes, 23, of Sound Beach, a short distance away. ECOs arrested the driver of the third truck, 20-year-old Jesse Demers, of Selden, the following day at his residence. "Illegal ATV and ORV use is a direct threat to the integrity of sensitive ecosystems like the Pine Barrens and public safety, and I'm proud to work with the State Police to step up our enforcement efforts to protect our environment and the people who responsibly enjoy it," said Acting DEC Commissioner Basil Seggos. "The safety of DEC's officers and staff is paramount, and I wish Officer McNamara a full and swift recovery. We will ensure that these men, and any individuals who harm or attempt to harm to our officers, receive the full extent of the law." Trevor Galvez was charged with: Assault 2nd, a felony; Reckless Endangerment 2nd, a misdemeanor; Unlawful Fleeing of a Police Officer, a misdemeanor; Reckless Driving, a misdemeanor; and several vehicle and traffic law infractions. Assault 2nd can carry a maximum of seven years in prison, and each misdemeanor up to one year. Jesse Demers and Richard Hughes received identical charges minus the Assault 2nd. The arrested suspects were processed at the State Police Troop L Barracks in Riverside and held overnight at the Suffolk County Sheriff's Office Detention Center in Riverhead. Each man was arranged and made bail. The officers were part of a multi-agency ATV and ORV detail run by the Pine Barrens Law Enforcement Council (LEC). The council, formed in 1993, combats illegal ATV activity as well as other violations in the Pine Barrens. ATV and dirt bike riding can cause tremendous resource damage due to Long Island's sandy soils. The vehicles can create ruts in trails, tear up native vegetation and potentially disturb or injure other authorized recreational users. Individuals who spot illegal activities are encouraged to call DEC's Environmental Conservation Officers at (631) 444-0250 during business hours, and (877) 457-5680 or (518) 408-5250 at all other times. Individuals can also call (877) BARRENS for non-emergency calls relating to the Pine Barrens. http://www.dec.ny.gov/press/77537.html

With all due respect Biz, they aren't hard to stalk. If they didn't have all those quills, they wouldn't be hard to stomp on.

Great to see some fisher enthusiasm. Here are a couple of shots of 2 different animals from the bone yard. The distance from the camera may exaggerate the size different but one seems almost obese while the other is slender. This is northern Otsego County. I added one more photo from the same spot that is not a fisher.

I believe Mike started this thread with the best of intentions. It is unfortunate that it became personal. I found it an interesting exercise and instructive in a number of ways. What I am taking away from it is some people are really unclear on the concept of lead poisoning: what it is; what it does. Keep looking for mutants and neurological cripples as proof but realize that being "unclear on the concept" in itself may be a symptom. I'm done.

This was actually quite interesting and productive before it got personal. Maybe it is time to lock this thread.

Doc - Lead impacts at the levels discussed are incremental and chronic, not acute. Lead - from multiple sources - impacts the development of children, and neurologically impairs adults. Unimaginably small doses have an impact on children. How do you define lead poisoning? I have heard the 5 μg/dL number used to define "lead poisoning" ever since CDC lowered the threshold from 10. When my nephew reached 10 μg/dL, 20 years ago - from old house paint mostly - a casual observer would not have known he was any different for another child that age, yet he was poisoned. You and I may have met the "poisoned" threshold in our youth had anyone checked. It does not mean we cannot function above average. The consumption of lead over centuries may have actually lowered what "average" is. "Elevated blood lead levels and resulting health effects and disease have been well documented for people who frequent or work at indoor and outdoor firing ranges (Fischbein et al. 1979; Novotny et al. 1987; Chisholm 1988; Valway et al. 1989; Peddicord and LaKind 2000; Gulson et al. 2002)". From Human Health Risks from Lead Ammunition "Hunters who use lead bullets or shot, and their families, are at risk of lead poisoning in several ways: ingesting lead shot pellets or lead bullet fragments or residues in game meat, ingesting lead residue from handling lead bullets, or inhaling airborne lead during ammunition reloading or at shooting ranges (Carey 1977; Scheuhammer and Norris 1995; Tsuji et al. 1997, 1999; Scheuhammer et al. 1998; Johansen et al. 2001, 2004, 2005; Bjerregaard et al. 2004; KDHE 2004; Khan2005; Mateo et al. 2007)." You want to see a poisoned child, neurologically impaired - due only to lead from ammunition - before you believe there is a problem. I want to lower the amount of lead in human diets from all sources to minimize the well documented impacts and risks. Ammunition is one of those sources. Most of the older hunters on this forum have bit into a lead pellet in the past. For those who think I overstate the case, anything containing a lead pellet is tainted. As I have said repeatedly on this forum for the past year and a half, lead in the human diet in any significant quantity from venison is a relatively recent phenomena. The reasons: bullet construction and speed - black powered vs. modern high-speed bullets, the number of deer put into the human food chain since the advent of high-speed bullets - there were few around during the first half of the 20th Century; poor butchering practices among some commercial processors; the grinding of meat - which takes a single chunk of lead and spreads it through a large quantity of meat. As one of the best studies on the subject found, urban kids exposed to lots of old paint and plumbing have higher lead levels than rural kids that eat game killed with lead. However, those rural kids have higher lead levels than their rural peers that do not eat game killed with lead. Most parents who know how potent this toxin is, would do everything possible to lower their child's risk.

You are referring to the original photo, not mine. I know mine isn't cherry. It is hop hornbeam.

Guys, be nice.

I haven't been very good about following discussions. Sorry to come in late. I make burls into bowls for special occasion gifts. I collect all I can find and store them in the barn. This one wouldn't have made a good bowl so I hung it on the wall.

What? The "so-called guaranteed death sentence" is not another exaggeration? Where and who has suggested any such thing? Your default modus operandi in arguments is exaggeration. The question remains: If you had a toddler today, would you feed it meat with lead in it?

My thinking was that they just stop arguing with us. "You had the power all the time my dear".