phade

That is a big co-op. Spans Italy Valley.

New Hampshire banned drones, smart rifles, and MMS/wireless cams for use in hunting seasons. The cam law as written is really crummy even outside of their respective use in transmitting pics of game. Landowners can no longer use them to patrol their property during hunting season if they too hunt. This is important because about 50% of these types of cams are used for protection of property/trespassing/poaching, etc.

They won't break the sound barrier on land due to sonic booms - if not operationally necessary. If you've ever heard one, it'll scare the crap out of you. You will not forget that sound. You feel it almost as much as you hear it. Growing up in an area where the largest military presence in the world was, and having a father in the Navy who led a squadron's ops group (VA-42, now closed), I learned a fair amount about military planes of the time. A few times a year a plane would break loose just offshore or overhead for various reasons, but it was not normal practice due to the structural damage the booms can cause and the often cited but difficult to prove damage to wildlife and vegetation, and even humans. I distinctly remember one boom that made the news (they don't always) because it happened over land (much more rare then when they do over the water in that area) and it was directly overhead the main drag of the commercial area - windows were blown out of a ton of buildings. I remember a new bank had a lobby that was mostly glass walls and ceiling and it took a beating. Because many of the operational units break the barrier over water, there's a bit more info to go on, but the booms do appear to have an adverse impact on marine mammals such as sea lions and even dolphins and whales, similar to use of navigational/SONAR. Many farmers in that area believe it damages crops and can reduce productivity in animals, although not much has been done to really prove it.

All indications I have is that this is a done deal with just formality votes/signatures. Obviously that can change but there's next to no noise against it. Monroe Co. won't be going rifle any time soon, so I'll be keeping the H&R Ultra Slug shined and ready for action. It does kick like a beast either, and I actually enjoy shooting it. I'll be toting the 30-30 or .243 much more next season in the other counties, however.

At what point is the lowest hole in the bucket, though? Is anything really being gained if they don't care? I know co-ops are all the rage, but at a certain point, what gains are had.

LOL at this post, I just PMd you...

Nevermind...Penfield. LOL, talk about the tale of two communities....development and farmland. Bound to have issues with it in those scenarios. Good deer there. Tough access.

What town was that?

How do other states do it with similar problems? The answer: Much better than us. That's how they do it.

OTC really shouldn't be difficult to implement - even if they just stick with the same reporting structure (ie tag has to be reported as filled to be eligible for additional tags). It doesn't fix the access issue, but neither does the season changes - it just works around that problem, which really is the only thing plausible at this point. OTC gets tags into people's hands who can burn them - without messing with season structures. The idea that people have to pay to go through multiple drawings and beg/barter/steal to get consignments in units where they want deer dead now or lest we get into dire straits...just seems counter-productive at the least and downright bureaucratic when you really think about it. "Hey, we want deer dead now, but we're going to limit you on getting tags and charge you to even be eligible to draw for them." Seems legit. Even 8H has some population disparities. Two areas are definitely down population wise of the past few seasons and one other area is always backfilled with does when you shoot one, two, or ten of them. My real concern is those pockets where the numbers are down and I suspect lower than what the DEC believes (I have nothing to go on but personal observations, so take it with a grain of salt)...if they go crazy with the doe harvest, I see those areas being really hurt similar to the early 2000s.

When the DEC had the gumption to over correct in the early 2000s, i believe they stated their efforts paired with winterkill was a combo that dropped the statewide herd numbers significantly. That was when the harvest total was over 300k....were not near that now and theyre spouting similar diatribes...which concerns me that we are heading to another repeat. 180k harvest totals or worse...is not where i want to be.

Good article. Sad reality, however.

I've reached out to ALOT of landowners within the WMUs impacted. By alot, I would say several hundred in the past 4 seasons. When declined, the #1 reason I get is that they hunt the land themselves and/or have a group of hunters already on it. This is probably a 2:1 or a 3:1 ratio to landowners who simply do not allow hunting on their property. Think about that for a second and all of the complaints about access. Land is being hunted, but just not by the hordes or masses. With little public in some of these WMUs, it really makes the issue much more difficult. If they went OTC and doled out tags to those who do have access, I think they'd make a dent in the overall numbers. My group has been stymied a bit because we hunt three WMUs that fall within this high deer population area. So when we pull, we generally pull DMPs for 8H and then one or two for 8F and 8G, to ensure we have them to burn when hunting in those units. What happens is we're sitting in 8H and having to scramble to find a DMP for that unit because we've filled the ones we obtained.Part of the problem nobody has really talked about is that several of the 8s are bordering one another and hunters hunt in both or more units with regularity. Naturally, hunters pull one for each unit and that causes an issue down the road. Go OTC in these units and give the power to the people who can do this right now...no screwing around with seasons, etc. Just go OTC, dole out the tags, and let people engage in a bloodbath. I will say I think some areas within the WMUs are not as bad as the DEC states. Some certainly are, but some of these areas I have noticed a population drop based on my cam use. Such informal insight, but I am pretty confident in being able to say that. I do fear that if the DEC gets the number they want, we might have a repeat of the early/mid 2ks where it was over-corrected.

I just struggle with the idea that we have a 23 day gun season and even have to resort to doe only seasons when there are shorter gun seasons and better doe management in other states where it does make an impact on numbers control. Ohio while not perfect is a great system because they are fluidly able to change things up - not related to the access, ag, or the soil quality...but just their ability to shift on the fly year to year with changes to manage the numbers and quality. The state hit their target on numbers but probably overdid it this year and guess what, hunters pounded the DNR with feedback, and they're (DNR) already on the ball to make the needed changes to tweak the resource. When I see that, and then look internally here in NY, and we're talking about jamming down a doe only season in bow by bowhunters...and our current season structure...and it just makes me pessimistic at the outcome of this. My resources have told me that there is only a 50-50 chance that, even if this is pushed through, won't take effect until next season due to timing. The key to this is getting a ton of feedback submitted by the June 29 deadline. The more feedback questioning it, the more it'll take them to wade through it all, which could pend the decision to the following season. I've also been told that it really is the last step before muzzleloaders come in, and that may be done in spite if the pushback from hunters on the current regs proposal is monstrous. At this point, it's likely an either-or proposition for bowhunters in the short-term (this year and next)...no changes to the season is as likely as the Bills winning the Super Bowl this year. What I see is that they implement the doe only in bow, modify the late season somehow, but back off the doe only somewhat or a combo of days within the late season...and then next year, say that it still doesn't work and then implement the smokepoles. Imagine that discussion....doe only Oct. 1-15, the few day or week-long muzzleloader doe only season, and then xbow on the back end of the bow season. It's not much of a bow season at that point and a drastic change from even two seasons ago.

We have the longest gun season in the NE (or close to) and arguably the worst management of does in that region. If other states can have a shorter gun season and better doe management, shortening the gun season to one week should be plausible and effective as long as we balance the management. I don't think you can magically shorten it w/out other things rolled into a plan, but it seems like a good thing when done correctly - even a 9 day season spanning two weekends, with the last two days doe only or something to that effect. I like gun hunting just as many others do, but so many states have better overall deer management plans that include a shorter gun season and their problems on whatever apple-to-apple comparison we can generate often puts us at the bottom or near bottom of the pile and rarely middle of the pack.

Most of the WMUs with high doe numbers also have harvest rates higher than the projected BTO. They don't want buck numbers to go up in those units.

Its going to curtail my hunting. Ruining spots for does?Its a crap regulation change and is indeed a warning to bowhunters to shoot more does before muzzleloaders are brought in. Why even own a muzzleloader...just to shoot a doe? The cost outweighs any logical reasoning. This isnt based on science, its an authoritative penalty to bowhunters for not shooting does. They need to go otc with doe tags, it literally steps around the access issue. Trust me, there are plenty of people who run out of tags for the various wmus. I mean, seriously, people have to get consignments in these wmus? The dec wants deer dead and hunters have to get consignments? Stupid.

Yes and you know why its up there? Me. As soon as you posted this, they emailed me thanking me for letting them know it wasnt posted on the site...and a week of comment period was wasted as there was no info on where to send comments. How lame is that?

Feel free to copy and send it in the them at the email address I documented on page 2 of this thread.

Great quote.

Mr. Schiavone, I am submitting comments toward the proposed antlerless harvest and DMAP regulations, which are open for comment through June 29, 2015. I am opposed to the antlerless-only designation for the first 15 days of the early archery season within the wildlife management units (WMUs) that are included within the proposal. I am also opposed to the antlerless-only modifications to the late archery and muzzleloader seasons within the same WMUs. There are many logical and scientific reasons for this opposition; however, here are some key factors that make the proposals a poor regulation to implement: Archery harvests represent a small fractional portion of the overall antlerless harvest across the various seasons and implements. This proposal eliminates opportunity for buck harvest, a major engagement to drive bowhunters into the field, while at the same time providing only a very minor increase in antlerless harvest. If a similar or in-kind proposal was made for the regular firearms season, this may be much more effective at attaining desired harvest levels. Additionally, with crossbow included in the back portion of the early archery season, this leaves roughly only 15 days with which vertical bowhunters have to harvest a buck without added hunting pressure. Muzzleloader hunting is a growing segment; however, such a regulation would likely limit this growth and may result in contraction of the muzzleloading hunting population. Some of the units within this proposal have recently moved to rifle allowance, reducing the use of muzzleloaders in the regular season where it was chosen over shotgun use. Pair this with zero opportunity for a potential buck harvest within the late muzzleloader season, there will be a reduced desire to go afield during the late season, a time where inclement weather is likely. It also will reduce the justifications for owning and hunting with a muzzleloader for many sportsmen and women with the implement only being used for late season hunting on does, a very narrow window of opportunity. The added emphasis on antlerless during this time may also increase the likelihood of bucks that have shed their antlers being killed. I believe the units that need antlerless herd reduction should move to an over-the-counter method of issuing tags after the initial DMP draw. This allows tags to be obtained by hunters who are able and willing to fill them rather than simply providing them en masse to the hunting population within those units. After the two DMPs are filled, hunters should be able to go to an issuing agent and obtain one or two supplemental DMPs, with the process repeating until the DEC deems that no added tags should be issued. Rather than having second-chance drawings and consignments, this method will remove barriers to those who have access, the desire, and the ability to harvest additional does. Removing the limitations on capping doe harvest at the individual hunter level seems to be a plausible and reasonable management effort before making such drastic regulatory changes to the aforementioned seasons. Again, this change to over-the-counter is merely systematic; it does NOT reduce opportunity for sportsmen to take a buck for portions of the various seasons, and instead offers added benefits to hunter engagement and increases days afield for those who can fill the tags. In conclusion, I strongly oppose the antlerless-only designation for the first 15 days of the early archery season within the wildlife management units (WMUs) that are included within the proposal. I am also opposed to the antlerless-only modifications to the late archery and muzzleloader seasons within the same WMUs. Thanks,

The southern zone regular firearms season is one of the longest in the NE. Yet, they manage to screw up doe population management. Answer that riddle for me before shoving crap down the bowhunter crowd's throat.

Bowhunters can be 99% meat hunters in the current numbers...and barely make a dent in the overall reduction needed in an ideal state. If they really wanted to reduce numbers, they should be using the bangstick crowd.

The DEC apparently doesn't have this comment link up - but send an email to: [email protected] Title: Proposed Antlerless Harvest and DMAP regulations Michael Schiavone is the point of contact. Any chance we can get a sticky on this?

I must have missed this....looks like they will take comments: For more information or for instructions for submitting comments, go to the DEC website: http://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/propregulations.html. Comments on the proposed antlerless harvest and DMAP regulations must be received by Monday, June 29.