phade

One of the better things for dialouge here so you can learn from this discussion, is to post a quality aerial of the ground with the roads and location indentifiers blacked out. For bow, you really want to be slightly off the trail where you expect to shoot. Being right over them, imo, is more difficult of a shot than a long-range shot.

True story - I have more access in central Ohio for FREE on permission in one year worth of trying that I have ever had in wNY in all my life combined. All I did was, call, write, and knock on doors. They didn't know me from Adam. The landowners in central Ohio are crazy nice...one of these owners even offered to put me up in his guest room over the barn for the week I am there for free. And get this - he hunts! Yet he still offered permission. You surely don't see that here. So, not exactly the picture you present. Fact for 2012: I contacted 52 landowners here in NY this season within my area. Permission granted on 0. That is right...0. I have had to lease 2 parcels to have enough ground to hunt with my FIL (who is a gun hunter only) that is closer to his house. I contacted 32 landowners in central Ohio. Permission granted on 5. Same exact approach. Total acreage...nearly a 1,000 acres. The ones that denied either hunted or had family that hunted...or they sold the land. But, they were all very nice. Can't say the same here in NY. As far as Ohio public ground - it's the best east of the Mississippi, hands down. There's more public ground to find with plenty of room and little hunting pressure - all it took was a few hours on the computer to do. I didn't get the chance to hunt one public parcel last year but made a trip by it this spring and within 5 minutes I had a 130 class 8 pt shed in my hand (one side).

It doesn't get much worse than 4:1. Mother Nature is a machine.

Bobcat....spots are gone because of the IR. Ever have your pic taken with IR in camo? You cant see the camo pattern at all.

From what I understand the benefit is that it helps to protect the bucks from over-harvest - similar to what would occur with a move to after the rut. The cross-section of the ones killed as the years progress with the shorter season pushes the age classes up. Higher age classes will typically result in better quality hunting. Part of the reason some plains midwest states have the shorter, later gun season is because there is more open ground. This is done largely to protect the bucks from over-harvest. Our long gun season starting in the rut doesn't do us much good as far as the quality goes.

Not for nothing, but if you get the sense he's gonna be a jerk and set up a shooting range...I'd probably build a couple legal definitions of dwellings on the property line...

Culver, you are off base here. I never once mentioned bow season, yet you keep making assumptions based on something I never said. I still stick by statements. A restructured and shorter gun season in my opinion will result in better hunting for gun hunters and all hunters. Along with going to OBR.

I'm not whining about the quality of our hunting based on where I am located. I don't think you can quote where I've said that - and I think it is lame you throw that accusation out there, personally. I never once mentioned bow hunting in my posts...and referenced "deer quality" several times. I'm saying the season dates and structure in NY is one of the worst in the country for quality whitetail hunting. Yes, here in wNY we have great soil and decent deer hunting. But, it could be much better if seasons were better composed. And, as I noted, I am an avid gun hunter. I own two bows. I own 20 firearms and MZ. So, personally, I find it childish you want to paint with a wide brush and say that it's bowhunters whining. It's not...I'm looking at things as a whole for the overall quality. Face the facts, where I hunt is decent, but it pales into comparison with other states with similar soil, genetics, hunting pressure, and herd numbers. You simply CANNOT deny that. One area that NY differs in from most if not all of those states is season length and structure across the board... Shoot, just look at the P/Y or B/C heat maps showing entries...just use wNY and compare it to IL or Ohio or Wisconsin (these generally have the same subspecies of whitetails we have)...yet outside of the suburban fringe, we pale in entries on the same level.

True, but they are changing slowly...they've documented that there is a desire from sportsmen to improve the quality of hunting....even though they disagree on it (as do I), they allowed AR to go through to improve the quality (whether that's perceived or factual is not the point)...but they did it.

The effect is on harvest numbers. Less hunting pressure on deer imo is something anecdotal that instantly comes to mind. Quality vs. Quantity. I haven't dug it up, but I bet the % of buck classes in Wisconsin is higher than here in NY.

Gun 228,629 MZ 7,126 Bow September 15 - November 15, 2012 and November 17 - January 6, 2013 Gun November 17 - November 25, 2012 Muzzleloader November 26 - December 5, 2012 Wisconsin hunters shot 235k deer in much less time. I think the total of all harvests was around 350k give or take a few k.

Better quality hunting. Also moving the gun season out the rut helps huge. Heck, I'd be tickled pink if the gun season started the Monday after T-day and ran for 23 days.

85% is 85%....85% on the first two days of 23 days is the equivalent of 85% on the first two days of 9 days. Ohio, Wisconsin, Illinois, all have shorter gun seasons. Your argument is moot because NY has one of the longer gun seasons in the country. Wisconsin is probably the best example...they have a SHORT season and still shoot a significant number of deer. They have a huge herd number and a huge hunter base. Its about as apple to apple as can be...yet Wisconsin has significantly better deer quality. D&DH had an article a few years back showing that cutting the number of gun days did not impact the harvest numbers over the long-term.

Another week for gun? Acccccccccccccccck. I love gun hunting, but really, gun hunting it the major contributor to the poor quality hunting in this state compared to others with similar soils and habitat. Move gun to a 9 day season, starting the Monday after T-day, and the hunting would dramatically improve. Adding more gun time? Before the current opener? Talk about a doomsday scenario...bucks in peak rut with the orange army? Wow, just wow.

Like many things in life, you can't paint with a wide brush. Some of the shows are undoubtedly unrealistic and nothing more than entertainment. Some of the shows involve some real hard work and represents something that the average guy could attain should he put in the time, effort, and dedication. Joel Snow was mentioned...he's an outfitter himself. So, not only does TV filming drive him, but so does the outfitting. But, he also works a regular night shift job. Adam Hayes is another that seems to just be a fanatic that understands deer movements and really, where the true teaching moment is for him, is that HE FINDS WHERE BIG BUCKS LIVE. For him, he has most luck hunting small parcels in and around Columbus. Sure, he sees a ton of big bucks, but guess what? He realizes that having quality ground is a part of the hunting process....and he's always trying to gain new ground, mostly via permission. Midwest Whitetails is a decent show...I think it focuses more on common hunting situations than the horn porn, although being in Iowa, that's skewed a bit. Legends of the Fall...the VA guys are long time filmers, but one is a fireman by career, and I forget what the other does...but its an average joe job. They just lease, manage their own leases, and also family ground in VA. I wouldn't call them anything other than regular joe's, really. Now, the Cmere deer, high fence hunts in TX are not fun for me to watch. NA Whitetail is starting to get that way...I really can't stand watching Dr. Deer in TX on a management buck hunt.

Elite's draw features are the best selling point in my opinion. The hold at full draw while in a hunting situation is really where its at...

Don't be too afraid to recognize that the buck may simply not use your property during daylight hours. Maybe you'll have a small window during the rut... Many people see nocturnal bucks at 2,3,4 a.m. and think they have a shot at killing that buck during hunting hours. They fail to realize their parcel contains only a small portion of the buck's route that he takes to feed or is solely during the mid-nighttime movements. What I want to see to really get me going, is as you mentioned, daytime photos, and also ones on the cusp of light, say within that one hour period. If you see that, chances are he's bedding in close proximity. A buck at 2 or 3 a.m. could be bedding a 1/2 mile or a mile away from that location. Now, that's not to say it is the rule, but in my experience, hunters rarely seem to take that issue into account.

Last season, I wiped out a doe family...a matriarch and her two fawns. Shot momma at 5 yards with the bow and those two fawns bawlled all morning long. Ended up takign the fawns later in gun season...one on a drive where there were 8 does busting out of the same spot and that was the first one that gave me a clean, safe shot. I had pulled the trigger before I realized it was one of the orphaned fawns. A week later, a short last weekend sit in the a.m. and the final one popped out about 60 yards alone. That time of year, deer were scarce to see...and I was only going to have one unobstructed chance to shoot before it was gone. I did...walking up to it...recognized it. Nature is ugly. I'd rather have passed at the young'uns but I had to make quick decisions and they both fell the wrong way for them. A few years back, same woodlot, I cleaned out 2 of 3 in the family. The BB bedded by me for an hour when his sister came by...she was much bigger, likely her yearling, and I needed some venison as the season hadn't progressed well for me. She went down. Momma doe was about 15 minutes behind her...same spot...she went down. BB got up, and mosied off. I obviously didn't want to shoot the little guy. Ended up shooting a buck later that night...darn near filled all my archery tags and DMPs that night...if I only had more arrows in the quiver! Keep in mind, however, this is in a VERY HIGH DPSM...does are overrunning the area. This year is even worse.

This year, for the first time, I got repeats of two mature bucks from the same interior set during the summer. I got June, July, and August pics. UNfortunately, once the velvet has shed, I'm pretty confident I've lost them to another parcel. Before that, i rarely ever got repeats of bucks in interior-placed cams. I think this time around was more or less luck because the placement was between bedding and water this summer and there really wasn't any other option for them to go to get to it and they were forced into daytime movement. I don't expect them to be there opening day. Cams are a dangerous tool. Used incorrectly...and they do harm.

Again, it's not foolproof, but when used correctly, it can work. It's NOT something you use often. Can you do more damage than good? Certainly. I cover quite a few of the larger buck harvests in NY and in my conversations, I'd say there is about 1 in 5 were shot coming in off a drag line of sorts. Now, that's purely anecdotal, but it does work when used correctly. Dan Bedell's buck, which was talked about here a few years ago...was shot in large due to the drag line he set. I vividly remember a drag line I set brought two good bucks in within 15 minutes birddog style, I'm talking eyes so wide and rolled backed so much I could barely see their pupils, fleming, etc. It was likely the most intense hunting moment of my life. The came right to the end of the trail. Of course...I had shot a smaller buck about 45 minutes before that and was letting it sit before tracking...so all I could do was watch these bucks from between the grates of my stand. I think it is more reasonable to use it on ground that you won't hunt right away again...if you only have one 40 acre parcel to hunt...then that changes things. I think that's where most people get messed up...its how they use and in correlation with their hunting situation.

That's what i've been doing lately. MZ if the shot is longer. No need to buy another gun that only hunts one thing if all the bases are covered. The smoothbore can let me chase the turkey, deer, squirrel, etc. I'd say 9 of every ten stand sets I have, the smoothbore can adequately cover the range.

Yeah, I'm not really interested in selling for less. I have more than $600 into it, and it was in the woods a handful of times.

Unfortunately for me, only the guys in my family eat venison...it makes it tough to really eat it as much as I would like (same issue with preparing two meals rather than one). I usually can go through 1/2-1 deer a year the past few years...and most of that is via ground or sausage. The times where I can slap on a venison tenderloin/backstrap with the guys are few and far between. Usually we try to do that at a Bills game or something.

99% of my scent use comes with decoy use. The other 1% is with a combo drag of a doe in heat with a buck urine...I use the gels from Northern Whitetail. I've had quite a few buck encounters with it. I won't use scent otherwise...pretty much scent use is maybe 4-5 times during the season.

Thanks for the heads up...I saw this yesterday and locked up a small lease. It was perfect for me...small but intent was to take pressure off of another nearby lease. Worked out perfect for me. I wish Eric had more close by...I thought his pricing was reasonable.