Governor requesting Compromise on Crossbow Bill

[phade]

From what I understand the benefit is that it helps to protect the bucks from over-harvest - similar to what would occur with a move to after the rut. The cross-section of the ones killed as the years progress with the shorter season pushes the age classes up. Higher age classes will typically result in better quality hunting.

Part of the reason some plains midwest states have the shorter, later gun season is because there is more open ground. This is done largely to protect the bucks from over-harvest.

Our long gun season starting in the rut doesn't do us much good as far as the quality goes.

Edited September 12, 2012 by phade

[beachpeaz]

100 to 1 is impossible. Actually 4 to 1 is close to impossible also.

As many as 1/3 of those "doe" you see after season could be button bucks who will be 1.5 yo for the next rut.

And by season's end, the remaining bucks aren't running around in open fields to pose and get shot at one last time - they have gone nocturnal or to ground.

If you truly think that there are 50 does with no bucks and want to kill all the does, where are the future bucks going to come from?

Your right, 100 to 1 is high, but not impossible. There is no way the state wide ratio is 2 to 1 though. I can't prove it, but hunting for 30 years, it is my gut feeling.

Also, I said AFTER the season they are in the fields and where DEC does their counts. Never said during the season or duh, yeah they would be shot up. I am talking like January.

Never said anything about killing all the does either. I merely mentioned doing the youth hunt as a doe management hunt. There are some states that require you to shoot a doe before you can get a buck tag. It helps control the population.

[beachpeaz]

Please post the factual data proving this.

I would guess the % is high, but no where near 95.

Ok, fine opening weekend and then thanksgiving weekend contains 95% of the hunting. Not sure how you could argue this. I know a lot of hunters and they all hunt 3 or 4 days max!

[phade]

Your right, 100 to 1 is high, but not impossible. There is no way the state wide ratio is 2 to 1 though. I can't prove it, but hunting for 30 years, it is my gut feeling.

Also, I said AFTER the season they are in the fields and where DEC does their counts. Never said during the season or duh, yeah they would be shot up. I am talking like January.

Never said anything about killing all the does either. I merely mentioned doing the youth hunt as a doe management hunt. There are some states that require you to shoot a doe before you can get a buck tag. It helps control the population.

It doesn't get much worse than 4:1. Mother Nature is a machine.

[beachpeaz]

Your right, 100 to 1 is high, but not impossible. There is no way the state wide ratio is 2 to 1 though. I can't prove it, but hunting for 30 years, it is my gut feeling.

Also, I said AFTER the season they are in the fields and where DEC does their counts. Never said during the season or duh, yeah they would be shot up. I am talking like January.

Never said anything about killing all the does either. I merely mentioned doing the youth hunt as a doe management hunt. There are some states that require you to shoot a doe before you can get a buck tag. It helps control the population.

I just started bow hunting 3 years ago so maybe this will change, but I have never shot a doe in my life. The gun season usually falls during the rut so I have not shot a doe in fear that she was already bred and contained a future buck in her belly.

[beachpeaz]

It doesn't get much worse than 4:1. Mother Nature is a machine.

I would like to believe you. Where I actually hunt, that is probably pretty accurate I would say 3 to 1 or 4 to 1. Where I live, but don't hunt, it is way worst than that. Oh well, not worth arguing over, only the deer know for sure.....lol

[wdswtr]

Here is a reality check for you guys....bow hunters are a MINORITY. geesh...you sound like all the other wlefare groups wanting it all changed to benefit the minority.

This has gotten me a bit curious. I wonder what the results would look like if these numbers where not taken from license sales but from actual people who hunt. I cant recall the number of people over the years brag about those extra tags they got from there wifes license or someone elses who has neve even hunted a day in there life. Cant deny it we must all know of a joker or 2 that does this. The other thing that makes me think is the number of gun hunters who hunt more than opening weekend. Yep I have seen and know of a few of them myself. The opening day warriors and never to return for a year. Great for license sales I guess. This is all curiosity on my part but Im thinking the numbers would not be so majority if all things where considered. I dont know any bowhunters who put the effort and time in to be practical at filling a tag with a bow that is just the opening day warrior or one who does not spend several days in the field. The next thing that comes to mind is I also do not know any bowhunters who do not gun hunt as well. I sure do know alot of gun hunters who dont bow hunt though.

Generally speaking the wild rants about bowhunters wanting it all to themselves or the me me me, bullshit is quite rediculous. First off why would one not support the part of the deer season they love the most? Do you gun hunters only not do just that as well? I think you nay sayers would find that the vast and large majority of bowhunters are gunhunters as well. I would give far more credibility to a statement without the BS behind it. I do not know if it comes from the lack of time some are allowed to put in the hard work and dedication to take a bow afield or its just they want first crack at the deer. Or maybe its just a true lack of desire and lack of interest to put the effort into bow hunting. I spend months in anticipation of bow season, I also spend months in anticipation of gun season. I cant wait for bow to start, I hate to see it end but I love seeing gun start. One thing is true whether its a bow hunter or a gun hunter the goal and passion pretty much is the same.

Edited September 13, 2012 by wdswtr

[Culvercreek hunt club]

There is no way that enough licenses are bieing sold to spouses, kids, whoever that isn't really hunting to make up that big difference in sales. The licenses are just too expensive for it to be that wide spread. If you want to maintain that the same could be said though for buying additional license for bow. same concept i guess.

Every year I hear the same talk about how our deer hunting quality sucks how gun season it too long. how we need to be more like the mid western big buck states. Well this will be my 26th bow season and my 31st gun season and I think our opportunities are fine.

I also hear about how it is so hard to get access to property to hunt here in NY. We have some great state land and if you think access to private land is hard now, just hold on to your hat should we ever become one of the big buck states so many wat us to be. Take a trip out to Illinois, Iowa, south central Ohio and find public property to hunt ot find a landowner to allow you to hunt their property for free. not impossible but let me know how you make out. I can just see the threads years from now yearning for the good ole' days when we had land to hunt and how we would trade the 'quality big buck hunting' for some access to actually hunt.

[steve863]

I also hear about how it is so hard to get access to property to hunt here in NY. We have some great state land and if you think access to private land is hard now, just hold on to your hat should we ever become one of the big buck states so many wat us to be. Take a trip out to Illinois, Iowa, south central Ohio and find public property to hunt ot find a landowner to allow you to hunt their property for free. not impossible but let me know how you make out. I can just see the threads years from now yearning for the good ole' days when we had land to hunt and how we would trade the 'quality big buck hunting' for some access to actually hunt.

Freaking great point!! I would NO doubt prefer to have some inexpensive private land to hunt no matter what type of deer roam on it, instead of paying thru my nose for land that supposedly holds trophies.

[growalot]

Yep I keep saying when I end up having to sell...or the kids get it....it will be worth a hell of a lot more than when we bought...actually is now...

[phade]

There is no way that enough licenses are bieing sold to spouses, kids, whoever that isn't really hunting to make up that big difference in sales. The licenses are just too expensive for it to be that wide spread. If you want to maintain that the same could be said though for buying additional license for bow. same concept i guess.

Every year I hear the same talk about how our deer hunting quality sucks how gun season it too long. how we need to be more like the mid western big buck states. Well this will be my 26th bow season and my 31st gun season and I think our opportunities are fine.

I also hear about how it is so hard to get access to property to hunt here in NY. We have some great state land and if you think access to private land is hard now, just hold on to your hat should we ever become one of the big buck states so many wat us to be. Take a trip out to Illinois, Iowa, south central Ohio and find public property to hunt ot find a landowner to allow you to hunt their property for free. not impossible but let me know how you make out. I can just see the threads years from now yearning for the good ole' days when we had land to hunt and how we would trade the 'quality big buck hunting' for some access to actually hunt.

True story - I have more access in central Ohio for FREE on permission in one year worth of trying that I have ever had in wNY in all my life combined. All I did was, call, write, and knock on doors. They didn't know me from Adam. The landowners in central Ohio are crazy nice...one of these owners even offered to put me up in his guest room over the barn for the week I am there for free. And get this - he hunts! Yet he still offered permission.

You surely don't see that here.

So, not exactly the picture you present.

Fact for 2012:

I contacted 52 landowners here in NY this season within my area. Permission granted on 0. That is right...0. I have had to lease 2 parcels to have enough ground to hunt with my FIL (who is a gun hunter only) that is closer to his house.

I contacted 32 landowners in central Ohio. Permission granted on 5. Same exact approach. Total acreage...nearly a 1,000 acres. The ones that denied either hunted or had family that hunted...or they sold the land. But, they were all very nice. Can't say the same here in NY.

As far as Ohio public ground - it's the best east of the Mississippi, hands down. There's more public ground to find with plenty of room and little hunting pressure - all it took was a few hours on the computer to do. I didn't get the chance to hunt one public parcel last year but made a trip by it this spring and within 5 minutes I had a 130 class 8 pt shed in my hand (one side).

Edited September 13, 2012 by phade

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I have two very good friend in Ohio and they paint a much different picture especially the private land acces and the use of available unting land. I am glas you have had a better results.. I have no first hand exerience in that state. Portions of Ohio are a fairly new buzz on the trophy destination list. I will be curious how your experience holds up as the years progress.

The other 2 guys I hunt with are in on a lease in sub prime property in Illinois. They beat the bushes for 2 years to try and find public and free private land. they ende up on a 4 man lease for 1 week of gun ) $10.000. Bow leases were higher per week and was totally booked.

I don't find NY to be difficult to find property. I guess it is hit and miss on what doors you knock on. If NY is that bad for you know what do you think would happen if we became the new hot spot?

Edited September 13, 2012 by Culvercreek hunt club

[Doc]

Every year I hear the same talk about how our deer hunting quality sucks how gun season it too long. how we need to be more like the mid western big buck states. Well this will be my 26th bow season and my 31st gun season and I think our opportunities are fine.

I also hear about how it is so hard to get access to property to hunt here in NY. We have some great state land and if you think access to private land is hard now, just hold on to your hat should we ever become one of the big buck states so many wat us to be. Take a trip out to Illinois, Iowa, south central Ohio and find public property to hunt ot find a landowner to allow you to hunt their property for free. not impossible but let me know how you make out. I can just see the threads years from now yearning for the good ole' days when we had land twandered o hunt and how we would trade the 'quality big buck hunting' for some access to actually hunt.

Generally speaking, I agree that we do have some excellent opportunities, especially with all the state land that is available. On the other hand, I do get a little different perspective because I have been bow hunting for 47 seasons now and about 52 gun seasons, and almost all the hunting has been generally in the same general area and most of it even on the same property. The state land that I am hunting is the same that I hiked and hunted when I was a kid. In fact I hung out on that state land before it was state land. So I have had a pretty close ability to watch exact changes over a lot of years. Much of the private lands that I used to hunt have been locked up or built up.

One observation that I have made is that the parcel of public land that I hunt was always busy and crowded during gun seasons. In fact much, much more so back 40 and 50 years ago. There were so many hunters that you could track the progress of groups of deer as they ran across the hill simply by the gunshots. Not so much any more. It has become a very quiet place with the possible exception of opening day morning.

Bow hunting on the other hand is exactly the opposite. What used to have the atmosphere of a semi-wilderness hunt today is teaming with bowhunters, small game hunters, mountain bikers, and hikers, and the occasional illegal vehicle. Bowhunting has taken on a huge increase in activity since the advent of compounds, and bowhunter density has become quite heavy. The challenges of the non-hunting uses of state land have really made it difficult to find diurnal, patternable deer. It has taken special adaptations to stay effective and successful, but it still can be done.However, these kinds of changes have made people look down on state land to the point where a lot of hunters won't even consider public lands for bowhunting.

A different thing has happened with public land gun hunting. The exaggerations of safety problems on public land gun hunting have been propagated to the point that hunters are convinced that hunting state land is a death sentence. Also these people are convinced that there are no deer there. They've all been "cleaned out" is the popular saying that you often hear. Both of these notions are false, but that cannot stop the popular mythology from spreading and even growing. Whenever I confess to hunting state land, I always get that sympathetic look, and then an expression of amazement that I am still alive. In a way that is not all that bad, but people are staying away from a very good source of hunting land options. No you won't find highly managed deer there ... no food plots .... no high fences .... not even real managed harvest selections. You will find occasional excesses of hunters, and the deer are a bit more careful about where they go and when. But for those that want to take the time to learn it all, and learn the effects of human invasions into whitetail habitat, there can be some fantastic hunting.

But yes, you are absolutely correct. There are some excellent public land opportunities available here in this state that probably surpass an awful lot of other states. The problem is that it has all received very bad press and hunters seems to be swallowing every bit of it and avoiding these lands like they don't even exist. And so, perception becomes reality. For many budding hunters who are complaining about lack of places to hunt, these lands are automatically ruled out. Perhaps many disappearing hunters are leaving because of this. It's too bad, but you can provide all this land but if hunters are determined to believe that they are dangerous and empty of deer, then it might as well not even be there.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Aside from opening weekend, the thousands of acres that boarder my leased land in 7R is barely hunted. After Thanksgiving weekend you don't even hear shots on it. I know the deer are still there becasue I swing over there if I have enough snow to track. I grew up hunting state land and I think you are right. the pressure on it seemed more and seemed to last longer than the first weekend.

[steve863]

For me the lack of food plots and such would not be an issue on state land, since I don't hunt over them on my private land either. I think what turns off many to public land is the unknown, which means you can scout a place out, pick a nice spot for yourself well in advance, only to find others there when you do hunt it, which then pretty much destroyed any or all of the plans you took the time to make. On private land you generally don't have such issues, which leads to a MUCH more enjoyable hunting experience. I know all state lands are not the same, but in the southeastern part of the state, a good many areas are like hell holes. You have land that is nothing but a bunch of cliffs and ravines that one would practically need a helicopter to yank a deer out of if a deer was stupid enough to actually frequent such a place and a hunter managed to kill it.

Also what kills it for many who lose their private land is the camps and comradery that usually went along with private land hunting. In most cases hunting public land means either sleeping in a camper, a motel, or going back home to sleep, which is far from the traditional hunting camp experience. Some are lucky enough to have a camp close to public land, but I think that is more of the exception and not the rule. Honestly hunting on private land compared to public land are two different worlds. Tasting private land makes it VERY hard to go to public.

P.S. And on public land I could very well be the one screwing things up for someone else also, if I happen to set up in a place that someone else picked out. I surely don't like that feeling either, so it's not only from my perspective that I look at this.

Edited September 13, 2012 by steve863

[Doc]

Yes, there are definitely special tricks to hunting public land. The one thing that I and the deer have found out is that there are places that hunters simply are not willing to go into. Very often, they get out of their cars and immediately walk right by some of the hottest deer areas on the property. Multi-flora rose can be your friend if you know how to use it.....lol.

Another thing I have found is that hunters are like cattle. They all follow the same path into the woods for quite a distance. The deer figure this out too. Hunter patterns are key to figuring out escape routes and timing. So while things on public lands can be a real pain, after a certain amount of time coexisting with the interruptions and hub-bub, you start to figure out certain things about each parcel, and sooner or later, it all starts coming together. Not many people have the patience to work it all out.

The comments about the lack of attending deer camp ...... all true.

[wdswtr]

Kind of like fishing on the lake Doc. You got miles of open water and everyone flocks to where the other boats are. Always got a laugh out of that when I tournament fished. A hundred teams fishing over the same fish and none of them dared to try a un-pressured spot whether they caught fish or not. Me I went the opposite direction. Must be brainwashed in some, if thats where everyone else goes or thats how everyone else does its got o be where the deer and fish are lol.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Kind of like fishing on the lake Doc. You got miles of open water and everyone flocks to where the other boats are. Always got a laugh out of that when I tournament fished. A hundred teams fishing over the same fish and none of them dared to try a un-pressured spot whether they caught fish or not. Me I went the opposite direction. Must be brainwashed in some, if thats where everyone else goes or thats how everyone else does its got o be where the deer and fish are lol.

And the guy inthe boats casting right to shore and the shore fisherman casting out as far as they can..lol

[wdswtr]

And the guy inthe boats casting right to shore and the shore fisherman casting out as far as they can..lol

LMAO funny how the mind works isnt it. Cant tell you how many times I seen just that as well. I find myself laughing at the guys on the Salmon River with 16 foot long noodle rods standing up to their neck in the middle of a good run and casting to shore. Then the guys on shore casting past the dude with the 16 foot noodle rod. Would love to know what those guys are saying as they speak russian. Good times.

[beachpeaz]

True story - I have more access in central Ohio for FREE on permission in one year worth of trying that I have ever had in wNY in all my life combined. All I did was, call, write, and knock on doors. They didn't know me from Adam. The landowners in central Ohio are crazy nice...one of these owners even offered to put me up in his guest room over the barn for the week I am there for free. And get this - he hunts! Yet he still offered permission.

You surely don't see that here.

So, not exactly the picture you present.

Fact for 2012:

I contacted 52 landowners here in NY this season within my area. Permission granted on 0. That is right...0. I have had to lease 2 parcels to have enough ground to hunt with my FIL (who is a gun hunter only) that is closer to his house.

I contacted 32 landowners in central Ohio. Permission granted on 5. Same exact approach. Total acreage...nearly a 1,000 acres. The ones that denied either hunted or had family that hunted...or they sold the land. But, they were all very nice. Can't say the same here in NY.

As far as Ohio public ground - it's the best east of the Mississippi, hands down. There's more public ground to find with plenty of room and little hunting pressure - all it took was a few hours on the computer to do. I didn't get the chance to hunt one public parcel last year but made a trip by it this spring and within 5 minutes I had a 130 class 8 pt shed in my hand (one side).

I have not contacted anyone in a different state, so I will take your word for it. On the NY side, I couldn't AGREE more. It isn't just hunting, but the attitudes in the North East in general. I own a business and I joke with my sales guy who covers this terrtiory that he literally has every asshole customer our company has in his territory!! The property i hunt, who is basically like family to us, will definitely turn down anyone who asks to hunt there (besides us) and would shoot you if you tresspassed...lol. I know other people the same way. And, event he guys who hunt public land won't tell you what they saw where they are hunting, etc. Totally opposite of how I was brought up in a hunting family of sharing. I find myself being a dick now too..lmao. I have property behind my house I bowhunt and I get a call a year or so looking for permissioin and I tell them no.

[growalot]

Look at the taxes that everyone pays in New York...not just land but every thing...Then look at the welfare roll and the fact we are paying for that...Of course that is going to breed a mentality of protection over the things we own... bought with what little money the government allows us...There are too many ppl walking around with there hands out and way to many that think the world in general owes them some thing...It gets to be BS

[beachpeaz]

Look at the taxes that everyone pays in New York...not just land but every thing...Then look at the welfare roll and the fact we are paying for that...Of course that is going to breed a mentality of protection over the things we own... bought with what little money the government allows us...There are too many ppl walking around with there hands out and way to many that think the world in general owes them some thing...It gets to be BS

Agree 10000000000% (did I put enough zeros?). I live in Erie county. We are one of the highest taxed counties in the COUNTRY. You would think Buffalo was a suburb of LA, NY or CHI the way we pay up the ass. So, yeah, I am very protective of what I have left.....never really correlated that to my hunting property....but i guess there could be an argument made there.